Scolded at El Cortez

This thread reminded me of something that happened to me in January. I wanted to ask the resident gamblers about it, because the whole experience left me confused.

I have a betting pattern in which I gradually increase my pass line odds. If I get to the point where the pressure exceeds the maximum allowable bet, I just increase the pass bet so that it is legal. I've never had a problem implementing it previously. But playing at EC, the box lady noticed me adding to my pass bet and waved me off, saying I couldn't do that. As I understand it, a put bet would be to their advantage. Can anyone think of a sane reason not to allow it?

Quote: waltomeal

Can anyone think of a sane reason not to allow it?

No, but given that you were playing at the El Cortez, you probably had a green break in dealer who was essentially clueless.

There is no reason for a casino not to book that bet, other than ignorance.

Quote: MrV

No, but given that you were playing at the El Cortez, you probably had a green break in dealer who was essentially clueless.

That makes sense, but it didn't actually come from the dealer. It was the box lady, who I would figure to have a bit more experience. The dealer never looked twice at my press.

I thought I was going to jail when I upped my pass line bet in AC 14 years ago. The box there was a total ass about it. I said "sorry, I do this all the time in Vegas, and since it is an advantage to the casino, I am surprised you don't allow it." The brilliant reply I got? "You ain't in Vegas."
In spite of offers for free junkets and rooms, I have never returned to AC, and likely never will.

But, they did get me thinking about the play, and I realized that upping the pass-line is just not a good play, unless you can put down more than 5x odds on the increased amount. If you can't do that, you are better off just adding a place bet on the point if you want more action. You will get paid better, and you have the ability to take ALL of the bet back if you want. When you up the pass line, you can only take back the odds. The amount you are only going to get paid 1-1 must stay in action.
Calculate your payoffs on what you are doing with the PL add-on, and then calculate if you made place bets instead, and I think you will find the amounts are the same, or better, with the place bet.

Where it used to make sense to up the pass line was on a table where they were playing all 3x odds. On a $10 PL bet, point of 6, you could put down 30 in odds. But if you asked the dealer, many times if your PL bet was 15, they would treat it like it was 25, and allow you to put down 75 in odds, effectively giving you 5x odds. So every time I had a point of 6 or 8, and a $10 PL bet, I would up the PL to $15 and then put down $75 in odds. This was a better play, because the extra $5 PL bet allowed me to put down an additional $40 in odds, or 8x. 3-4-5x tables pretty much eliminated the need for this play.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I thought I was going to jail when I upped my pass line bet in AC 14 years ago. The box there was a total ass about it. I said "sorry, I do this all the time in Vegas, and since it is an advantage to the casino, I am surprised you don't allow it." The brilliant reply I got? "You ain't in Vegas."
In spite of offers for free junkets and rooms, I have never returned to AC, and likely never will.

LOL what a ploppy idiot.

Quote:

But, they did get me thinking about the play, and I realized that upping the pass-line is just not a good play, unless you can put down more than 5x odds on the increased amount. If you can't do that, you are better off just adding a place bet on the point if you want more action. You will get paid better, and you have the ability to take ALL of the bet back if you want.

BINGO!!!! If you only read one thing on this thread, read the above quote.

Quote: RaleighCraps

But, they did get me thinking about the play, and I realized that upping the pass-line is just not a good play, unless you can put down more than 5x odds on the increased amount.

Yep. They have 10x odds at EC, so when I get past the limit, I drop $1 on the line and $10 on odds. The house still has an advantage overall, so I'm not sure why the objection.

Nice to hear that my experience is not unique anyway. "You ain't in Vegas" makes me smile, just a little bit.

I think I know which box lady told you this. She has been there for a few years, and always seems frustrated working with break in dealers.
I was playing at Primm a few months ago, they are 3-4-5x odds and $2 minimum in the off hours. I was playing the minimum, and taking max odds. I get confused by 3-4-5x odds, so when the come went to 6 or 8, I said "$15 odds" and the dealer would press my flat bet up to $3, and give me the $15 odds that I asked for. I didn't notice at first because the dealer took the extra dollar from my place bet that was taken down. So the dealer was essentially doing what you were reprimanded for doing. I'm mystified as to why they would not allow you to press your bet up.

Ive never played at EC but I do not think the "put bet" is allowed uniformly. I always ask first. I have found at some casinos they arent sure what it is. Even at Caesars I asked and got two answers. The second answer came from a pit boss-- which was "yes." I asked because the point rolled was an inside number and it was an opportunity for me to use a large promo chip for the odds.

Quote: AlanRRT

I'm mystified as to why they would not allow you to press your bet up.

Here's the thing. If you did not increase your odds bet, then would you have pressed your pass line bet? No! Taking it to the extreme, if I wanted to, I could put the minimum on the pass line and then when the point came out, I could just increase my pass line bet to whatever I want so that I can get 1000x odds against my original bet amount. It still works out for the casino but it violates the intent of the rules.

Quote: waltomeal

This thread reminded me of something that happened to me in January. I wanted to ask the resident gamblers about it, because the whole experience left me confused.

I have a betting pattern in which I gradually increase my pass line odds. If I get to the point where the pressure exceeds the maximum allowable bet, I just increase the pass bet so that it is legal. I've never had a problem implementing it previously. But playing at EC, the box lady noticed me adding to my pass bet and waved me off, saying I couldn't do that. As I understand it, a put bet would be to their advantage. Can anyone think of a sane reason not to allow it?

So if I read this right you just wanted to add $1 to your pass line bet after the point was established?

No reason not to allow that. I think it was covered that this was allowed on the first day of dealer school. If not the first then the second.

Was she hot? Maybe she just dated the floorman to get the job??

Quote: AZDuffman

Was she hot?

I've seen "hot" female employees at the El Cortez but they were more like office hot or pirate ship hot.

I would hazard to guess that the reason the box lady didn't want you making this move is because the dealers are so green, they would get confused. Rather than confusing the already confused dealers, it's easier to just tell you not to make this casino-advantaged bet.

If the odds are less then 5x, then it's not difference then adding 1000x as a place bet. It doesn't really violate the "intent" of anything. It's just another craps bet. However, it wouldn't be the first time that AC didn't allow a common bet that has a pretty high house edge (see big 6/big 8)

I suspect they want to avoid opening the door to players "capping" i.e., adding to the passline bet after the point is made. Given the crowd at the E.C., I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't a significant problem.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I suspect they want to avoid opening the door to players "capping" i.e., adding to the passline bet after the point is made. Given the crowd at the E.C., I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't a significant problem.

How is this an issue? This isn't past posting or capping. Putting more money on the pass line after the point, is IN FAVOR of the casino. To not allow the bet, is just dumb.

Quote: YoDiceRoll11

How is this an issue? This isn't past posting or capping. Putting more money on the pass line after the point, is IN FAVOR of the casino. To not allow the bet, is just dumb.

Exactly. Capping a Pass line bet (without adding more odds) is like betting the Big 6/8. You are making a bet that would pay you more somewhere else on the table an even money bet instead. Thing is, if you bet $5, they let you bet, say $25 on 5x tables. If you bet $6, it's usually rounded to $10 and you can bet $50. I don't know if this is the "intent" thing that others are referencing, but it shouldn't be a big deal. If you bet $6 on the Come out instead, they would have let you do the same thing, and you would have had better odds on that $1.

Not if the point is MADE (not set, made). The poster is talking about past-posting once a decision has come in, not while waiting for the point to be made.

Well clearly that is against the rules.

Quote: YoDiceRoll11

Well clearly that is against the rules.

Well yes... and the house is (possibly insanely) trying to prevent this by not allowing the pass line bet to be change after the come out roll.

Quote: waltomeal

Yep. They have 10x odds at EC, so when I get past the limit, I drop $1 on the line and $10 on odds. The house still has an advantage overall, so I'm not sure why the objection.

Nice to hear that my experience is not unique anyway. "You ain't in Vegas" makes me smile, just a little bit.

So you bet $5 on the pass line, and if someone makes their point, you put $10 odds. Every time there is no seven or a point made you add another $10. When you reach $50 then you add another $1 on the pass line and an additional $10 odds.

Well you are correct that it is in the casino's favor, but only by a few cents. The sane reason not to allow the bet is that they don't want you to waste their time.

Now if you put another $5 on the line, and $10 odds, then they should permit that play.