binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
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November 6th, 2011 at 5:23:23 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Okay, then this question:

WorldWide and Legends continue to offer the fixed craps game. Why are they still operating the software? Why are customers still playing there? Obviously, the negative publicity doesn't affect their business model and they have no interest in removing their casinos from their site.

A post by another user (mightymaron) kind of says it all: he lost money playing a fixed game at 5 dimes but he will continue to book his money there because he's happy with the service otherwise. i don't get this.


Re: WorldWide and Legends. I was initially going to refer only to Newton's First Law of Motion in answering your question, but then it occurred to me that all three actually apply.

Suffice it to say: If the motion of a mass has not observably changed, in either direction or velocity, then one must conclude that a force sufficient to cause an observable change has not (yet?) been brought to bear.

I'm not trying to be glib or facetious here. I think a good question is: Is there someone at WorldWide or Legends who is in a position to make a decision about this even aware of what is going on here?

Re: mightymaron. I understand their position. The options available to the US Player for sports betting are very limited, and becoming more limited as time, and the DOJ, marches on.

I don't wager on sports events; that's a dead key on my piano. I know people that do. I have seen the additional excitement, the additional enjoyment, that they get from these wagers. In the same way that I have seen the enjoyment on the faces of people that like taking the rides at an amusement park.

In the US, one pastime is legal, and one is illegal. It's that simple.

(Yes, I know that you can go to B&M Casinos, Race Tracks, etc. and this is all legal. But my point remains the same.)

If my understanding is correct, then mightymaron has stated that they will continue to patronize the Sportsbook, because there are few options available, and will avoid any further action in their Casino.

As I said, I understand this.

I believe that I am speaking for every Sports bettor, every Poker player, every Casino player in the US when I say - "That kinda sucks, don't it?"

Chris
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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November 8th, 2011 at 7:16:39 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Here is a preview of my BLR Technologies warning on my Odds site.

In looking at that, it seems that the win or lose on come out should be broken down to win on 7, win on 11, lose on 2, lose on 3 and lose on 12 ... you broke down the point win/loss by the value of the point, why not the same on the come out? ... I say this because I was looking over clempops4 data and when I did that kind of breakdown the chi even got more extreme ... I mean really extreme ... instead of impossible, it was really really impossible ...

Maybe you could just do that and post that table here?

--Ms. D.
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 8th, 2011 at 7:57:29 AM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

In looking at that, it seems that the win or lose on come out should be broken down to win on 7, win on 11, lose on 2, lose on 3 and lose on 12 ... you broke down the point win/loss by the value of the point, why not the same on the come out? ... I say this because I was looking over clempops4 data and when I did that kind of breakdown the chi even got more extreme ... I mean really extreme ... instead of impossible, it was really really impossible ...

Maybe you could just do that and post that table here?

--Ms. D.



Good suggestion. However, I didn't write down that information as I was playing. I would have to go over the whole video to get that breakdown. What I can assure you is that you would see a lot of threes on the come out roll. I'm sure it would add more digits to the inverse of the p value, but I think I've established more than a reasonable doubt already.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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November 8th, 2011 at 8:09:12 AM permalink
This has pretty much gone as far as it can go. I've posted the fact that the casinos are cheating in craps on CasinoMeister and SBR. CasinoMeister has rogued the casinos in question, but people continue to use 5Dimes (who have discontinued the software), Legends, and WorldWide. Buyer beware, I guess. The Wizard has rogued these casinos.

That's because the sportsbooks are fine. It's the casino software provider who is providing an unfair game, probably to give them more revenue, as they probably have a very favorable revenue sharing agreement with the casino. As was explained earlier, the casino is a very small part of these sportsbook's operations and it's likely that the sportsbook operating is unaware of its breakdown in revenue or even considered that the casino might be cheating its customers.

Still, the books should discontinue using BLR software. Given that Legends has just gone to live dealing (similar to 5 dimes), it's likely that Legends will dump BLR. WorldWide isn't very highly rated and they are flying under the radar, I guess.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
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November 8th, 2011 at 8:15:57 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

This has pretty much gone as far as it can go.

That's like saying the AP/UB thing went as far as it could go when it was on 2+2, this should just be the beginning, the media should pick it up and run with it ... it's a huge scandal for these casinos to continue to use this rogue software (that may be cheating at other games) and for them to not compensate players who have been cheated ... bad stuff ... I hope it somehow gets out there and people get really pissed at these guys ...

--Ms. D.
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 8th, 2011 at 8:27:06 AM permalink
Okay, let's rephrase. I've taken it pretty much as far I am willing to. It's up to the folks who interact with these casinos to act now. Will the media pick this up? Doubtful.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
thecesspit
thecesspit
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November 8th, 2011 at 9:46:57 AM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

That's like saying the AP/UB thing went as far as it could go when it was on 2+2, this should just be the beginning, the media should pick it up and run with it ... it's a huge scandal for these casinos to continue to use this rogue software (that may be cheating at other games) and for them to not compensate players who have been cheated ... bad stuff ... I hope it somehow gets out there and people get really pissed at these guys ...

--Ms. D.



They should, but after the UB/AP scandal I have no faith that it will get a huge wave anywhere. Phil Helmouth carried on advertising UB after they'd been caught. Sites were supposed to be "regulated" by any scandal making them so dirty, they'd close due to a lack of players. Didn't happen there, and as much as I'd love to see it happen here... I am skeptical.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
binary128
binary128
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November 8th, 2011 at 9:47:26 AM permalink
In my opinion, online Casinos:

- should be using an RNG which has been certified by an approved Testing organization. This certification testing must extend into the software program's scaling/mapping algorithms, "shuffling" algorithms, and final game results.

- should publish this RNG Certification, and provide the name, phone number and/or email address of the contact at this Testing organization.

- should publish their complete game rules, in a manner and to an extent that those rules can be thoroughly verified through game play.

- should publish the Theoretical (Maximum) RTP values for all of their games.

- should have monthly audits of their game play logs performed by an approved Testing organization. In addition to providing the simple RTP values for the games (or game groups), these monthly audits should also perform statistical analyses of the game play results (card distributions, dice distributions, wheel distributions, etc. etc.) for all of their games.

- should publish these monthly audit results and certifications, along with the name, phone number and/or email address of the person to contact at the approved Testing organization that ran the audits.

- should be operating out of a jurisdiction which provides some level of mediation in the case of a dispute, and should provide the name, phone number and/or email address of the person to contact in the event that these mediation services become necessary.

- should, on request, provide a Player's complete game play logs, going back to a maximum of 2 years, in whatever format facilitates any statistical tests that the Player, or any representative of the Player, wishes to perform.


Is anyone aware of BLR satisfying any, most, or all of the above? (OK, I'll toot my own horn here - Is anyone aware of ANY Casino software provider, other than Galewind, that satisfies all of the above?)


Although the Wizard of Odds and Casinomeister are very powerful, and justifiably influential, names in the world of online Casinos, they are, in my opinion, neither as powerful nor as influential in the world of online Sportsbooks. (Mike, feel free to tell me I'm all wet here.) Thus my reference to the current lack of a sufficient force being brought to bear on this issue.


Quote: boymimbo

This has pretty much gone as far as it can go.


I believe a more accurate statement is that you have brought it as far as you are able to bring it. (Please don't take that the wrong way. I applaud you for your "above and beyond" efforts in posting on the SBR Forum. You gave it your best shot there, did all that you could do really. The fact that this SBR thread seems to have gone out with a whimper rather than a bang is actually somewhat surprising to me. I know the "SBR people" to be a bunch of stand-up guys.)

However, I don't believe that it has gone as far as it can go. Other forces may yet be brought to bear. As one example, the "wonders of the web" may cause this issue to (finally?) be brought to the attention of those who are in a position to do something about it.

I would like to believe that such highly regarded and respected Sportsbooks as Legends and World Wide Wagering are aware that, in providing this Casino product to their customers, they have vetted this product, and are honorable enough to realize that, in doing so, the ultimate responsibility for the product is theirs.

I would like to believe that any reputable Sportsbook would be above saying to their own Sportsbook/Casino customers "Buyer Beware" in the event that this sort of thing happened.

Chris
binary128
binary128
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November 8th, 2011 at 9:52:09 AM permalink
boymimbo,

LOL. Your last post and mine appear to have crossed in the mail.

Chris
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 8th, 2011 at 10:16:20 AM permalink
Quote: binary128

In my opinion, online Casinos:...



I agree 100% with everything you wrote. That should be required reading for everybody in the business.

Quote: binary128

Is anyone aware of BLR satisfying any, most, or all of the above? (OK, I'll toot my own horn here - Is anyone aware of ANY Casino software provider, other than Galewind, that satisfies all of the above?)



Pass that horn over to me, I'll toot it myself.

Quote: binary128

Although the Wizard of Odds and Casinomeister are very powerful, and justifiably influential, names in the world of online Casinos, they are, in my opinion, neither as powerful nor as influential in the world of online Sportsbooks. (Mike, feel free to tell me I'm all wet here.)



You're right. My microphone is only so big. I've tried to get the print media interested in this and have a nibble so far.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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