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FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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May 31st, 2013 at 3:30:54 AM permalink
If its been filed, its public.

I just don't think court rooms are the proper place to decide wrestling matches or dance performances or beauty contests or anything else that should be a matter of finality at the time and place of the occurrence. The crew? He hired them, he can't complain now. The Bimbo who slid the dice? If the cameras were focused on the tits instead of the table, its his loss. If these were thought to be untouchable high rollers, better keep that thought in mind after they leave the table.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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May 31st, 2013 at 4:58:14 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

If its been filed, its public.

From the original article on Oct. 1, 2011:
"The Strip resort has filed a lawsuit in Clark County District Court against frequent customers Leonardo Fernandez and Veronica Dabul, both Argentine nationals, asking for the return of about $700,000 Wynn officials say they illegally won during a monthlong cheating spree that ended with their arrest on July 18."
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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May 31st, 2013 at 7:53:05 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

From the original article on Oct. 1, 2011:
"The Strip resort has filed a lawsuit in Clark County District Court against frequent customers Leonardo Fernandez and Veronica Dabul, both Argentine nationals, asking for the return of about $700,000 Wynn officials say they illegally won during a monthlong cheating spree that ended with their arrest on July 18."



What I want to know is if the specifics of the charges have been made public? If it were a criminal case, an indictment would include descriptions of the crime and how it was committed. Have specifics been made public here?
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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May 31st, 2013 at 8:48:45 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

What I want to know is if the specifics of the charges have been made public? If it were a criminal case, an indictment would include descriptions of the crime and how it was committed. Have specifics been made public here?

Some intrepid Nevadan could make a request under FOIA or OPRA or whatever they call it.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 31st, 2013 at 9:50:56 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Some intrepid Nevadan could make a request under FOIA or OPRA or whatever they call it.


https://www.clarkcountycourts.us/Anonymous/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=9056574

From 5/9/2013:
"As to Defendants' Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings Finding that Plaintiff has no Claim Against Defendants, COURT ORDERED, motion DENIED. Winnings via cheating is not the same thing as a gambling dept. The Nevada Supreme Court. has expressly held that dice sliding constitutes cheating. Skipper v. State, 110 Nev. 1031."

I'm not entirely sure that the holding of Skipper v. State means "dice sliding constitutes cheating" in all cases, but it certainly does when the slider intentionally conceals it, and I understand that happened in this matter. However, I would be concerned about the ramifications of the broader holding that "dice sliding always constitutes cheating" because:
a) the mathematical difference between a successful dice slide and a successful controlled shot (e.g. on-axis rolling) is merely one of degree, not quality. Neither sliding nor controlled shooting physically alter the dice, so if sliding is cheating because it "alters the elements of chance" then so is controlled shooting;
b) Nevada statute provides that both cheating and attempted cheating are felonies;
c) Therefore, if sliding is always cheating, both attempting to slide the dice and attempting to use a controlled shot are criminal activities.

It sounds like WoVCon IV will be at the Clark County Detention Center.

In all seriousness, I can't imagine the above scenario could be correct. Virtually every dice shooter tries to control the dice, and there are even seminars on how to do it. Conspiracy to cheat is also a felony, even if you never actually cheat, so what would that mean for the authors of "how to control the dice" books? I'm just not sure where to draw the line between what the courts have held and what would be a ridiculous conclusion stemming from a reasonably straightforward application of the existing laws to those holdings. Does the reasoning above break down somewhere?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
NokTang
NokTang
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May 31st, 2013 at 8:38:00 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Does the reasoning above break down somewhere?



The judges ruling on that particular motion doesn't constitute a precedent or make it "law" as such.

Your other mention, that of the player "intentionally conceal"ing said sliding is only an opinion of someone. Rational people could and have said that the distractions were concealment but others say that it is the duty of the staff to avoid distractions. It's difficult to make the assumption the "distractions" were for the purpose of cheating successfully IMHO.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 31st, 2013 at 8:52:09 PM permalink
Blockers often engage in perfectly normal activity, its mainly their timing that helps the cheater get away with something. Now if you later find them in the same hotel room its a bit easier to prove collusion but otherwise its usually perfectly "normal" behavior that could be explained away as ignorance or alcohol-induced exuberance.
silicone
silicone
Joined: Jun 21, 2013
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September 30th, 2013 at 12:27:34 AM permalink
Was on that table that eve. Was awesome !!
Just Me.......
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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September 30th, 2013 at 3:24:01 AM permalink
Awesome? Should have been sickening.
I hope Wynn loses... simply because the burden is on the casino and the determination should be final with the Box or Floor's call and not subject to some judicial review several months later.

If his Boxman was overwhelmed by Bribes or Breasts that is too bad for Steve Wynn. The Box should have called "No Roll".
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
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September 30th, 2013 at 2:26:31 PM permalink
Absolutely. No Bet or No Roll or both. TFB Steve.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.

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