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rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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October 7th, 2011 at 5:02:30 AM permalink
I'm assuming (but maybe I shouldn't), that Steve Wynn has been around the block enough and has lawyers to consult with on such matters. And a straightforward assumption about why he pursued this may not be the reason he's doing it.

Winning might not even be fully expected. Things he may want to accomplish: make these people unable to just silently scoot to another casino as they'll be known and also cost them money and time fighting in court. Maybe there's is even some hope to win if the people get bad legal representation. I'm sure Wynn's got deeper pockets than they do so he can sweat them a lot.

And what else...?
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Doc
Doc
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October 7th, 2011 at 6:49:37 AM permalink
So suppose that this does go to court and that Wynn loses. I suspect there is, or would be, some kind of counter suit for defamation of character or the like. Suppose the "dice sliders" win that one, too. What is the likely impact on the way that the crap game is operated in the Wynn casino (and other Vegas casinos) after such an outcome? Would every screwball coming into the casino try to slide the dice, even if they don't know how? Would every short roll be called a no-roll?

I'm just considering down sides for Wynn other than the legal expenses.
kp
kp
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October 7th, 2011 at 7:25:00 AM permalink
Quote:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game



So a slot technician who changes the hold percentage on a slot machine is cheating?
Mosca
Mosca
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October 7th, 2011 at 8:00:20 AM permalink
Y'know, way back on page two, both sides of the discussion came to a consensus:

Quote: Keyser

Here's what I believe really happened. The Wynn knew they were sliding, and chose to let them continue playing, realizing that if they were to lose, that they would win the players money. If the players were fortunate enough to win, then the casino knew that they could always use the video tape in order to sue for the return of the money. The Wynn saw this play as a win/win game. This entire folly is the fault of the Wynn for not enforcing proper gaming procedures. They intentionally chose to bend the rules so that they could have a shot at winning the big players bank.

-Keyser



Quote: Paigowdan


I hate to say it, but I fully agree with this.



So do I. And I'd add, most people agree that there may have been some collusion, but maybe not. And I also agree with those who say that the Wynn has handled this badly.

Sliding is cheating. Once the Wynn accepted it, though, things get gray. If the guys behind the lens let it go, there's not a lot to say, but if there was crew collusion, I'm a bit more sympathetic to management.
NO KILL I
MrV
MrV
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October 7th, 2011 at 8:19:41 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I'm assuming (but maybe I shouldn't), that Steve Wynn has been around the block enough and has lawyers to consult with on such matters. And a straightforward assumption about why he pursued this may not be the reason he's doing it...I'm sure Wynn's got deeper pockets than they do so he can sweat them a lot. And what else...?



Wynn has a history of suing in response to a perceived insult or threat.

see ... barricade

Not that there is anything wrong with that; I mean, what is the point of having a lot of money and power if you don't get to demonstrate it now and then?

Remember, litigation is a game best played by the wealthy.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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October 7th, 2011 at 9:25:12 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Don't put words in my mouth; I am not at a loss for them.
I've always said that card counting was legal but against the house rules, - which is enough to get backed off a game or removed from a property.

And of course when I sit down to play BJ at your table and ask to see the rules, you will hand me something that says I can not count!
Is that correct Dan? Don't want to put words in your mouth. So a simple YES or NO will do. Thank you.



Have you not found time to answer YES or NO ??????????????????????????????????
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:08:00 AM permalink
Quote: NRS 465.015


1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.



I hope the Wynn loses. In my opinion it is up to the dealers to police how the dice are thrown. For example, if they let players set the dice and throw them carefully in an attempt to influence the outcome, then the Wynn is waiving their right to make a case that the player is trying to "alter the elements of chance."

Likewise, in this case the dealers accepted the throws, which I think waives their right to complain about them after the fact. By the Wynn's logic they could let any dice setter do his thing and if he loses let him walk, and if he wins ask for the money back.

I do hear that the Wynn fired eight dealers over this, which is entirely justifiable.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:13:12 AM permalink
I wonder what expert witnesses Wynn might put on the stand? And how many dice setting sellers are using this case to sell their product? Using your logic, Wynn should lose. But Lady Justice is blindfolded, so she will not see the dice roll!
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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October 7th, 2011 at 10:17:40 AM permalink
"I do hear that the Wynn fired eight dealers over this, which is entirely justifiable. "

And pit bosses, those who Wynn pays a higher base salary than dealers ? Those supervisors who's main duty is to detect these sorts of things and protect the house. Were they fired or kept on the payroll as potential witnesses for the prosecution ? Can I buy a ticket for the trial ?? Or will the prosecutors seek a plea bargain, with Wynn's approval ? I think the latter!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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October 7th, 2011 at 11:15:35 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: boymimbo

Quote: NRS 465


NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.



....
There is NO regulation within the gambling statutes of Nevada that defines what is an illegal versus a legal throw...


Sliding the dice is covered by the very same NRS regulation that you quoted in black and white, right above you not seeing it covered by NRS 465.015 - to alter the elements of chance...which determine the results of a game. Sliding the dice alter the elements of chance which determine the results of a game. Duh.


Under this interpretation, if sliding is altering the elements of chance, so is precision throwing. If precision throwing is a crime, so is attempting a precision throw: NRS 465.088 imposes equal punishments for cheating and attempted cheating. Therefore, everyone who sets the dice and tries to influence the outcome is guilty of a category B felony.

That cannot be the correct interpretation. Whatever sliding is, its interpretation must be consistent with the fact that it is a settled expectation that the player may manipulate the dice prior to throwing them, and may throw them in a wide variety of manners.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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