to all you dark side players
Anyways...discuss....how am I not seeing what you are seeing?...
Quote: vert1276Ok so here is my question......I have noticed a lot lately at the tables that a lot of dark side players are not taking odds on the D/P or D/C.....Why is this?.....I really am baffled.....Some dark side players say "well once I get past the come out...then I have the advantage...why would I make a true odds bet?...when I have a live bet already that pays better than true odds"....is this really your thinking?....If it is....then...just my 2 cents you are not thinking correctly, because for that bet you have to pay better than true odds it has to dodge 8 losers to 3 winners on the come out.......Now if I could just make a D/P bet after the come out like you can make a P/L bet after the come out....I would agree with you..that placing odds is not the right play on the D/C...but you cant! you must first dodge 8 losers.....therefore placing odds is the correct bet.......
Anyways...discuss....how am I not seeing what you are seeing?...
Just the tables you happen to be playing at--taking odds is always the correct play if you have the bankroll to cover it.
Dark Side players do not take odds they LAY odds.Quote: vert1276Ok so here is my question......I have noticed a lot lately at the tables that a lot of dark side players are not taking odds on the D/P or D/C.....
Now the rest of that stuff you've been hearing had better be after they've had a few drinks because I'd sure hate to think they went around saying such nonsense while they were sober.
Of course you soon have a love/hate relationship with variance.
On the Right Bettor side, you are TAKING odds because the event you are betting on is the underdog or least-favored event. Its always that 7 that is most likely to roll. And the gamblers expression is to always Lay The Favorite.
Quote: gamblerIs there a reason why it is called "lay the odds"? Or is it just a craps term? Just curious if anyone knew why.
The terminology isn't unique to craps, or even casino games. It refers to any bet you make where the payoff is lower than even money. Technically, most so-called straight-up bets in sportsbooks are lays, as the payoff is 10-to-11.
Quote: vert1276You are not thinking correctly, because for that bet you have to pay better than true odds it has to dodge 8 losers to 3 winners on the come out.
Don't bettors tend to be more students of the game and more cautious than pass bettors. What laying odds does is increase the volatility (or variance) without affecting the expected value. Based on years of observation and discussion, I would say that the preponderance of don't bettors eschew the thrill of, say, the proposition bets and are usually quite content to grind out their profits.
My first trip to Vegas long, long ago involved an ill-considered trip to North Las Vegas and a loss on the Dark Side of my entire bankroll in about two minutes flat. I certainly barely knew what I was doing.
Quote: gamblerIs there a reason why it is called "lay the odds"? Or is it just a craps term? Just curious if anyone knew why.
Quote: Shakespeare
I will lay odds that, ere this year expire,
We bear our civil swords and native fire
As far as France.
Part of the problem is the definition of the word odds. Typically we are using the word as in What are the odds of that happening? where we want to know the probability of something happening against all future possibilities.
But the word has an older, and simpler meaning. Odd was used from late 14th century to indicate a surplus over any given sum. No comparison is made to possible outcomes. The idea of a surplus is related to an "odd" number as being one more than an even number, and in that sense a tie breaker.
Using this older meaning of odd, Shakespeare is the oldest reference to laying odds meaning that he will offer excess money to win a smaller amount if he is correct. In this case the bet was that they would invade France.
The opposite case is taking the odds, where if you win the bet, you will take the excess amount of money over your initial bet. The overwhelming majority of bets in casino have the player taking more money if he wins.
We still use odds to mean an excess amount when we say "the odds are that he is drunk" or "the odds are on my team". But normally in gambling we are comparing the probability of a given outcome to all possible outcomes.
When Mark Antony dies, Cleopatra mourns that the excess of masculinity (the odds) that he brought to humankind is now gone.
Quote: ShakespeareThe crown o' the earth doth melt. My lord!
O, wither'd is the garland of the war,
The soldier's pole is fall'n: young boys and girls
Are level now with men; the odds is gone,
And there is nothing left remarkable
Beneath the visiting moon.
Quote: FleaStiffThe dark side is statistically a smidgen better than a Right Bettor. The trouble is that no one is really going to choose to be a Dark Side bettor simply over that slightly better smidgen.
I do.
Following that theory, he'd have been better off not playing at all... it's only semantics and how fast he was going to lose his money.Quote: MrVNick the Greek, a Don't bettor / odds layer who is reported to have lost a staggering amount at craps over his lifetime is reported to have said, at the conclusion of his gambling days: "If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't lay odds."
Quote: WizardI do.
if i recall you switch back and forth or do you always bet dark?
Quote: jpprovanceif i recall you switch back and forth or do you always bet dark?
Back and forth. If it seems like a fun table I'll go with the flow and play with the crowd. Otherwise, I embrace the dark side.
Quote: WizardBack and forth. If it seems like a fun table I'll go with the flow and play with the crowd. Otherwise, I embrace the dark side.
Even the Wizard has to concede it doesnt matter a whole lot! I've posted this before, but here it is again:
what I like about playing dark side
*that a player is less prone to demoralizing losing streaks
*how easy it is with 3x4x5x knowing what to lay for odds
*how the free odds are active bets all the time without having to say anything during the come-out
*I prefer having multiple DC bets to multiple Come bets up, for those times going for broke
but I don't like
*giving up the dice as the shooter after a 7-out.
*switching back and forth trying to guess which way to go
*missing out on the fun playing it dark when a shooter makes several hands, and if I was ever there for those rare times when it is awesome... not just about the money but the fun too
*feeling a rookie dealer has to be watched carefully for errors
Lately I have been playing 'right'
Well, anyone with the bankroll to back up his Don't bets with maximum odds all the time is better off on the Donts but that "smidgen" can be similar to the smidgen of Banker over Player when I was betting Banker and seven out of ten were player and one was a tie. My slavish adherence to Banker 'cause thats what the Wizard said to do was more than a smidgen of losses.Quote: WizardI do.
I think the only exception for ME is sports betting on the money line.......I will sometimes bet the favorite....and that doesn't bother me.....only becasue there is some "skill" to it......in the make believe "one die game" there is no skill......therefore I would always take odds rather than Lay odds.......but that's just me.....
The downside is you wind up playing against the other players, or at least they see it that way. certainly you're playing for different outcomes now. That can be bothersome, even in game like RC where other players don't see your bets.
Quote: NareedWhat I liek about the dark side, other than hearing James Earl Jones' voice ominously saying "You dont' know the power of the Dark Side" every time I lay down a Don't pass bet, is that I'm more confident about playing several don't come bets without fear the Big Bad Seven will ruin everything. Did that make sense?
The downside is you wind up playing against the other players, or at least they see it that way. certainly you're playing for different outcomes now. That can be bothersome, even in game like RC where other players don't see your bets.
That's a big reason why most people play pass -- peer pressure. And even rarer than the don't player is the don't shooter -- almost every darkside player I've seen passes the dice when it's his or her turn. And, now that I think of it, I don't know if I've ever seen a female don't bettor.
Statistically speaking, it is true that there is a minute difference between the don't pass and pass bets. However, I recall once doing a study on the number of bets that difference would take to manifest itself in a significant way; I believe the answer was "longer than you'll be playing craps". In other words, variance dominates house edge. The difference in edge is equivalent to one bet every 1980. There are maybe 33 bets/hour, so it takes you maybe 20 different 3-hour dice sessions to have an EV difference of one bet. It will take far, far longer than that for you to know that your results are better (e.g. you've lost less) from playing don't pass than pass.
Given all that, it doesn't matter which side you play. It's probably worth one bet every 60 hours to not get the stink-eye from other players.
Quote: NareedThe downside is you wind up playing against the other players, or at least they see it that way. certainly you're playing for different outcomes now. That can be bothersome, even in game like RC where other players don't see your bets.
Years ago, a dealer near Santa Fe, NM told me to place my dark side ("don't come") bets after the point was made. This way, your point to beat, will in general, be different from the point that was made, and your negative bet will be slightly camouflaged. Of course, you are still betting on a 7 to wipe out all the light side bettors. Having said this, I usually just play don't pass, but sometimes, I bet on "don't come" just to change my timing, if I feel that I'm losing.
Quote: MathExtremistThat's a big reason why most people play pass -- peer pressure.
I knwo peer pressure. I don't like it. I like to ignore it. Otherwise I wouldn't play 3CP without making the sucker bets all the time. I cna play the Dark Side. too.
But sometiems I want to enjoy the camaraderie of playing along with the whole table. And sometimes a shooter goes on a long roll without sevening out. But of course the last is ahrd to tell even if youa re in the midst of it.
Quote:And even rarer than the don't player is the don't shooter -- almost every darkside player I've seen passes the dice when it's his or her turn.
If I'm playing the wrong way, I stcik with it whether I'm shooting or not.
