influencing dice results without hitting the pyramids? (not a pro-dice setting thread)

I am as dubious as the rest of you about all of these people trying to sell methods to make a living at dice. I simply don't think it can be done in real casino conditions, unless you are allowed a few "shortcuts" by way of some dishonest dealers/stickmen.

Having said that, how many of you think that on a normal craps table, one could at least influence the outcome of the dice if they were not required to hit the back wall? Obviously I don't mean just sliding them 2 feet down the table; I mean a standard throw that came up maybe 4-8 inches short of the back wall.

I'm not planning any attempts at dice setting or dice control, with or without hitting the back wall...just curious if all of you think throwing dice at a distance is (almost) always a random event.

Easy enough to test. Try throwing a pair of dice 6 feet on a (non shag) carpet. Try to throw a seven. Try it 100 times. Statistically, you should get around 17 sevens. If you get over 35 (outside of 5 standard deviations) , then you retry the experiment to back it up. If you get somewhere between 17 and 35, well you can try again or not depending on how into it you are.

you forgot the "don't know" category, or didnt want that input. It's how I would have voted

Quote: odiousgambit

you forgot the "don't know" category, or didnt want that input. It's how I would have voted

I thought everyone "knew" the answer to this question ;)
Let me see if I can amend the poll for ya

EDIT: Nope, can't change the poll. I suppose I figured those who didn't know would just sarcastically click the seminar response

I doubt that you'd be able to influence them enough to beat 5 standard deviations, but I DO think that, with practice, it MAY be possible to achieve SOME better results. Those pyramids add a lot of randomness to the dice. Not hitting them makes it a LOT easier to achieve your goal. Whether or not you actually DO achieve that goal is another question.

Quote: seviay

I am as dubious as the rest of you about all of these people trying to sell methods to make a living at dice. I simply don't think it can be done in real casino conditions, unless you are allowed a few "shortcuts" by way of some dishonest dealers/stickmen.

Having said that, how many of you think that on a normal craps table, one could at least influence the outcome of the dice if they were not required to hit the back wall? Obviously I don't mean just sliding them 2 feet down the table; I mean a standard throw that came up maybe 4-8 inches short of the back wall.

Yes, that's easy. If you're standing next to the stick and you use a blanket roll that only goes 4-5 feet without hitting any obstacles or the back wall, it's easy to keep the dice on axis. Try it - you'll be able to do it almost every time. That's why you should never play craps on an army cot.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's why you should never play craps on an army cot.

For some reason, that got a big laugh over here.

BTW, just tried to avoid throwing 7s (by using the "hardways" set with 5s on top), with standard casino dice onto a foam mattress bed for a total distance of 7-8 feet per throw. I wound up throwing 16 7s in 110 rolls, for about 14.5% 7s. I guess this isn't outside of the realm of "normal," but it seems like I was able to lower the random incidence of 7s. Obviously very anecdotal with only 110 rolls. Perhaps if I get bored this weekend, I'll clock a couple hundred more.

Oddly enough, I only threw 6-5 twice and the 6-6 once. It looks like the way I was releasing, I wasn't throwing many 6s in general. In fact, only 1 of the 7s was the 6-1. On the other end of the spectrum, I threw 2-1 seven times and 1-1 five times.

*sarcasm* Sounds like I have a bright career ahead of me in craps! *endsarcasm*

Quote: seviay

For some reason, that got a big laugh over here.

BTW, just tried to avoid throwing 7s (by using the "hardways" set with 5s on top), with standard casino dice onto a foam mattress bed for a total distance of 7-8 feet per throw. I wound up throwing 16 7s in 110 rolls, for about 14.5% 7s. I guess this isn't outside of the realm of "normal," but it seems like I was able to lower the random incidence of 7s. Obviously very anecdotal with only 110 rolls. Perhaps if I get bored this weekend, I'll clock a couple hundred more.

Oddly enough, I only threw 6-5 twice and the 6-6 once. It looks like the way I was releasing, I wasn't throwing many 6s in general. In fact, only 1 of the 7s was the 6-1. On the other end of the spectrum, I threw 2-1 seven times and 1-1 five times.

*sarcasm* Sounds like I have a bright career ahead of me in craps! *endsarcasm*

It's not the numbers on top, it's the numbers on the axis. If you had 5s on top and either 3s or 4s facing you, you'll actually increase the incidence of 7s with the blanket roll to 1 in 4 if you assume perfect on-axis results and no correlation between dice. In order to minimize the probability of a 7 with the blanket roll, you need to have one die showing 1/6 on the side and the other showing 3/4 while the 5s are face-up. That drops the probability of 7 to 1 in 8 if you keep the dice on-axis -- only 2-5 and 5-2 make 7.

I don't have the sharp edged casino style craps dice here at home so I can't do this experiment myself otherwise, I would.

Quote: s2dbaker

I don't have the sharp edged casino style craps dice here at home so I can't do this experiment myself otherwise, I would.

Meh, curiosity got the better of me so I got dice from my new poker chip set that kinda/sorta look like they might resemble actual craps dice and rolled then 108 times on my hall carpet. Each roll, I had set the dice with the 6s on top and the 4s in the back, I threw right handed with my thunb and index finder grasping the top of the dice held loosely together. I crouched so that my butt leaned against a door so I was in the same spot each time and I threw pendulum style at a specific paisley design in the carpet six feet away, trying to hit it with the same force every single time.

Here are the statistically uninteresting results:

Roll	Result	Expected	Deviation
2s	3	3	0
3s	9	6	+3
4s	10	9	+1
5s	12	12	0
6s	12	15	-3
7s	19	18	+1
8s	11	15	-4
9s	11	12	-1
10s	8	9	-1
11s	9	6	+3
12s	4	3	+1

Perhaps I should be betting the field :)

108 dice rolls mean nothing. By being able to throw 1 less seven in 258 throws (throwing 42 sevens in 258 rolls instead of 43 sevens, which is expected) changes the HE on the 6 and 8 to zero if all other outcomes remain equal.

The sample size to get such an example would need to be well over 1,000 rolls using the binomial distribution. Any sample size less than that is just lucky.

I say one 8 hour experiment, dice setter vs random roller to produce a 1,000 roll session. Or 8 1 hour sessions during a day.

I still like the idea of having the claimed dice setter just arranges with the casino to rent a crap table promising to bet purple chips. They'll acquiesce I'm sure. Just bet the pass line using reds, and then use whatever bet the dicesetter feels s/he will do good at. Put the money where their mouth is in real casino conditions.

The stories being told are people betting at $5 and $10 chips. If you truly set dice and do well at it, why not play blacks or green chips at least!

We bet $5 and $10 as to not alert the casinos. Whenever someone buys my dice setting video, I always advise that you limit you bets ti $10, for the first month or the first $50,000 in winnings, whichever comes first. My video sell for $200 and you will recover that
in the first hour easily. Do you need my P.O Box info? Don't deny your friends and loved ones the gifts you can shower them with, once you learn to set dice.

Quote: buzzpaff

We bet $5 and $10 as to not alert the casinos. Whenever someone buys my dice setting video, I always advise that you limit you bets ti $10, for the first month or the first $50,000 in winnings, whichever comes first. My video sell for $200 and you will recover that
in the first hour easily. Do you need my P.O Box info? Don't deny your friends and loved ones the gifts you can shower them with, once you learn to set dice.

I know you're kidding, but just to put some numbers behind the numbers:
$200 profit per hour at 100 rolls/hour = $2 profit per roll. Making $10 bets that last about 3.3-3.4 rolls each means your action is about $3 per roll. $2 profit / $3 action = about +67% player advantage with your brand of dice setting.

I do offer a lifetime money back guarantee. What can you lose ? Oh except $200. LOL