Is craps dying a slow death?
April 23rd, 2011 at 1:10:58 PM
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Craps is my favorite Casino game. It has some of the best and the worst bets in the casino. I like to play the best and watch others play the worst and win. All around entertainment!
BUT, I seem to see the same old (older) faces each time I visit my casinos. No new blood. Do you agree? What is needed to get more and younger players?
It's got to be the toughest game to learn. I watched for 3 months and read 3 books on craps before I rolled the dice for the first time.
BUT, I seem to see the same old (older) faces each time I visit my casinos. No new blood. Do you agree? What is needed to get more and younger players?
It's got to be the toughest game to learn. I watched for 3 months and read 3 books on craps before I rolled the dice for the first time.
April 23rd, 2011 at 1:59:55 PM
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Quote: YoyomamaCraps is my favorite Casino game. It has some of the best and the worst bets in the casino. I like to play the best and watch others play the worst and win. All around entertainment!
BUT, I seem to see the same old (older) faces each time I visit my casinos. No new blood. Do you agree? What is needed to get more and younger players?
It's got to be the toughest game to learn. I watched for 3 months and read 3 books on craps before I rolled the dice for the first time.
I wouldn't say it is dying yet. At the casino here there is a pit with nothing but craps, six or so tables. They seem to almost always have at least half open even on off hours.
Agree it is hard to learn. When I teach people I liken the language to having to olearn to be a floor trader at the NYSE. Hard to learn but once you do you realize it actually makes it easier and faster.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 23rd, 2011 at 2:34:41 PM
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I saw lots of people playing craps last trip, even at the Fremont which offers only 2x.
But let's wait for Paco to rule on this. He's a gaming authority I trust, even when I can't quite follow him.
But let's wait for Paco to rule on this. He's a gaming authority I trust, even when I can't quite follow him.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 23rd, 2011 at 2:45:11 PM
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I may complain from time to time that casinos seem to be geriatric wards these days but it is not really true. We do see retirement home types and electric scooters but there are also the younger set who seem to have other interests while the geritol set sit glued to a slot machine or something.
I've seen UCLA frat rats descend on the Venetian's craps tables and of course places like the Palms and the Hard Rock probably are youth magnets.
I'll admit that the "new blood" does seem to be somewhat lacking but perhaps its just not being noticed.
On a Florida Day-Boat, they closed the craps table after they got hit by a team several years ago. Then they reopened it for weekend voyages only and for about a year its been Thursday nights thru Sunday nights. Its a variable crowd but does generally get an older crowd.
The nearby Seminole casinos get a young, hip crowd as far as the Hard Rock goes and also the smaller Seminole casinos gets younger Asians at the MiniBacc tables and sometime BJ tables. No craps at any of the Seminole casinos.
I've seen UCLA frat rats descend on the Venetian's craps tables and of course places like the Palms and the Hard Rock probably are youth magnets.
I'll admit that the "new blood" does seem to be somewhat lacking but perhaps its just not being noticed.
On a Florida Day-Boat, they closed the craps table after they got hit by a team several years ago. Then they reopened it for weekend voyages only and for about a year its been Thursday nights thru Sunday nights. Its a variable crowd but does generally get an older crowd.
The nearby Seminole casinos get a young, hip crowd as far as the Hard Rock goes and also the smaller Seminole casinos gets younger Asians at the MiniBacc tables and sometime BJ tables. No craps at any of the Seminole casinos.
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:17:32 PM
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Whenever I'm at the Sands in PA, I can't get near the craps tables. And they are $15 minimums!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:20:12 PM
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I love craps but think it can be real intimidating for new players. I've tried to teach many people how to play but it almost has to be an empty table for some to feel comfortable. The game moves fast and the last thing a newbie wants to do is slow down a hot table.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:49:51 PM
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In Nevada craps is down by about the same amount as roulette, sports betting, 3 card poker, and most of the minor table games.
The outliers are the blackjack and horse racing are way down, and baccarat is up to above it's pre-recession levels.
I think of craps as doing about average, whereas blackjack seems mortally wounded (but still the second most popular table game in Nevada). It's just that it was first for literally decades.
The outliers are the blackjack and horse racing are way down, and baccarat is up to above it's pre-recession levels.
I think of craps as doing about average, whereas blackjack seems mortally wounded (but still the second most popular table game in Nevada). It's just that it was first for literally decades.
April 23rd, 2011 at 6:33:30 PM
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As one of the younger craps players I think it might just come down to what's "cool". When you're pre-21 all you really hear about is blackjack, poker, and roulette. BJ and roulette are easy to learn and EVERYONE knows how to play poker... but how many people when they hit 21 could walk up to a craps table? Not many. Most of the "addicted" youth are playing poker or trying to AP BJ because that's what your friends are into - when I talk with a lot of my friends and it comes to gambling I always get a weird look when I say I only play craps. It's "that dice game" to the mass majority of the public.
Entirely a personal opinion: I think craps is one of the more veteran and gambling-hardened games in the casino. As we all know craps has a huge variance, so unlike blackjack or roulette you can't just walk up to a craps table with a hundred and have a good night. 4/5 times you'll bust out like there's no tomorrow, it isn't until they have that hot streak that they A. learn how to really play and B. start to bring a bigger bankroll.
Entirely a personal opinion: I think craps is one of the more veteran and gambling-hardened games in the casino. As we all know craps has a huge variance, so unlike blackjack or roulette you can't just walk up to a craps table with a hundred and have a good night. 4/5 times you'll bust out like there's no tomorrow, it isn't until they have that hot streak that they A. learn how to really play and B. start to bring a bigger bankroll.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
April 23rd, 2011 at 6:37:37 PM
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Quote: JimMorrisonI love craps but think it can be real intimidating for new players.
The first time I saw a craps table, I kept looking around for a user's manual :P
The best way to learn is simply to find an online site with instructions, then download a simulator like Wincraps or find an online free game and just play. It's a lot better than live lessons at casinos.
BTW last trip at Bill's they gave out free $5 match play coupons after the lesson. It's worth standing at one for that, it's only 20 minutes or so.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:23:00 PM
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I shot craps last night at Chinook Winds Casino, a nice tribal casino on the Oregon coast.
The table was a fairly even mix of seasoned, aka older craps players and hordes of 20-somethings.
Lots of new, young players, at least on a weekend night, and their energy and emotion was neat to behold.
Kind of like how I felt when I was new to the game.
Don't write the obit just yet.
The table was a fairly even mix of seasoned, aka older craps players and hordes of 20-somethings.
Lots of new, young players, at least on a weekend night, and their energy and emotion was neat to behold.
Kind of like how I felt when I was new to the game.
Don't write the obit just yet.
"What, me worry?"
April 24th, 2011 at 3:30:03 AM
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I'm not even sure myself how I feel about craps. You have to love it in a way, but the HE can be beat for the size bets I really like to make. So for me craps is becoming where I go to live a little bigger, knowing it is almost silly to stand there and place the min. bet and wait for each to resolve with no other action. Usually it is later in the evening after dinner and cocktails, one of the things that's great about the game is you don't have to be totally sober and it is not the disaster that it would be at something else.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 24th, 2011 at 6:13:39 AM
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Quote: YoyomamaCraps is my favorite Casino game. It has some of the best and the worst bets in the casino. I like to play the best and watch others play the worst and win. All around entertainment!
BUT, I seem to see the same old (older) faces each time I visit my casinos. No new blood. Do you agree? What is needed to get more and younger players?
It's got to be the toughest game to learn. I watched for 3 months and read 3 books on craps before I rolled the dice for the first time.
I deal craps about three days a week in the Vegas area, the other two days usually Pai Gow or a poker game variant, or subing on BJ.
I OFTEN teach new players the game when things are slow enough - and our crap tables are the highest action games.
We had to install a second crap table - which is a huge thing, when you consider that a standard crap table handles Twelve players, - or is equivelant to two or three card tables.
Craps is AT LEAST holding steady - if not accelerating in mature casinos.
In areas where gaming is "mature" - that is, where there is a steady local population of gamers - the gamblers routinely graduate from simpler games like BJ and Roulette - towards Pai Gow Poker and Craps - after playing a while.
We had to open a second crap table - in a casino that has seven BJ tables, three Pai Gow tables, two "poker variant" games (Deuces Wild and Three-card), and a wheel - and now TWO crap tables. To increase the number of tables for craps is like adding THREE new card game tables - and in a casino that usually has ten to fourteen tables open, this is huge - and good to see.
NO casino game has the juice of a crap game.
Craps has been around for 100 years, since 1910, when it pretty much replaced Hazard, and when Blackjack overtook Faro, as the primary gambling hall gambling games.
Only craps has remained steady and slightly growing, with Pai Gow Poker growing (2,000 active tables in the U.S.) - while other games have been declining.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:22:25 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanICraps is AT LEAST holding steady - if not accelerating in mature casinos.
In areas where gaming is "mature" - that is, where there is a steady local population of gamers - the gamblers routinely graduate from simpler games like BJ and Roulette - towards Pai Gow Poker and Craps - after playing a while.
"Graduate" is a neat way of putting it. Works for both dealers and players, btw.
I teach people how to play about once a month. Most times I only have time to "teach" passline and field. Yes, I know field bets are bad, but I deal "fun" nights with no cash involved and those people want action. Of the players who know how to play, barely 1 in 5 know what all the bets are, or else do not care. Women, for whatever reason, like to place numbers far more than the men, almost as if they are at a big-6 wheel.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 24th, 2011 at 7:34:13 AM
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While not as good a bet as Pass/Don't Pass; Come/Don't Come( with odds, of course), the Field isn't a bad bet. What's the HE on the field, 2.77%? About the same as single zero roulette, which you only see in the high limit sections these days.Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: PaigowdanICraps is AT LEAST holding steady - if not accelerating in mature casinos.
In areas where gaming is "mature" - that is, where there is a steady local population of gamers - the gamblers routinely graduate from simpler games like BJ and Roulette - towards Pai Gow Poker and Craps - after playing a while.
"Graduate" is a neat way of putting it. Works for both dealers and players, btw.
I teach people how to play about once a month. Most times I only have time to "teach" passline and field. Yes, I know field bets are bad, but I deal "fun" nights with no cash involved and those people want action. Of the players who know how to play, barely 1 in 5 know what all the bets are, or else do not care. Women, for whatever reason, like to place numbers far more than the men, almost as if they are at a big-6 wheel.
As to popularity, well, Craps is the only game I've seen where people stop to watch the action for any length of time. You can almost hear them thinking" Damn, that looks like fun" at a hot table. I take personal credit for converting two of my friends from slots(braindead) to Craps. Spread the word! It's the best game in the casino!
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
April 24th, 2011 at 7:46:40 AM
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Quote: PeteMWhile not as good a bet as Pass/Don't Pass; Come/Don't Come( with odds, of course), the Field isn't a bad bet. What's the HE on the field, 2.77%? About the same as single zero roulette, which you only see in the high limit sections these days.
As to popularity, well, Craps is the only game I've seen where people stop to watch the action for any length of time. You can almost hear them thinking" Damn, that looks like fun" at a hot table. I take personal credit for converting two of my friends from slots(braindead) to Craps. Spread the word! It's the best game in the casino!
I'm not great at stats but there is a 44.4% chance of winning in the field. There is a 5.4% chance of winning "double" (or the 2/12.) 44.4 + 2.7 = 47.1% chance of winning. Despite this the field can clean you out. Seen it happen dealing casino parties. When I get jagoff players I start selling field bets hard.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 24th, 2011 at 7:55:09 AM
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Oh, I agree the field can clean you out faster than the PL, but some nights we,ve all seen our 6/8 place bets dying a slow agonizing death while nines, tens, fours and threes seem to abound. Just sayin'...
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
April 24th, 2011 at 9:00:07 AM
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Quote: PeteMOh, I agree the field can clean you out faster than the PL, but some nights we,ve all seen our 6/8 place bets dying a slow agonizing death while nines, tens, fours and threes seem to abound. Just sayin'...
The field does get the gods of chance on its side some nights, you are correct. I use it in the modified iron cross play I use sometimes. Plus the easiest bet to explain/understand on the entire table. Maybe excepting some one-roll prop bets.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 24th, 2011 at 9:23:29 AM
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Exactly, it is the easiest bet to understand, and it's resolved every roll, and it's self service. I only use it myself for an intial dealer toke just to let them know I'm there.
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
April 24th, 2011 at 9:25:40 AM
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I am in the northeast. I gamble most of the time in Canada.
I "graduated." After many years of BJ, I was falling asleep at the table.
I try to keep to just the pass and come bets when I teach others. But they seem to be distracted by all the money being bet on all the table. It's probably best to learn away from a casino.
I "graduated." After many years of BJ, I was falling asleep at the table.
I try to keep to just the pass and come bets when I teach others. But they seem to be distracted by all the money being bet on all the table. It's probably best to learn away from a casino.
April 24th, 2011 at 9:27:20 AM
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The field bet is, as is often mentioned, it has the same house edge as single zero.
But what makes it unique, is that on the craps table, it is the only (relatively) low house edge bet that is a one roll bet.
But what makes it unique, is that on the craps table, it is the only (relatively) low house edge bet that is a one roll bet.
LOL! Love it!Quote: AZDuffman... When I get jagoff players I start selling field bets hard.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 24th, 2011 at 9:36:36 AM
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Quote: YoyomamaI try to keep to just the pass and come bets when I teach others. But they seem to be distracted by all the money being bet on all the table. It's probably best to learn away from a casino.
With 95+ bets on the table it is hard to keep even the best student form asking "but what is that bet" all the time. My thought for craps dealer school was a table with a layout that you could "uncover" as you learned more and more. For example, come in day one and all you can see are passline and board. Day 2 the covering comes off and day 2 the field bet is exposed. Day the DP is exposed. Ansd so on.
To make a "trainer" website would be fairly easy. To make money off of it much more hard. To not lose my profits at craps next to impossible.......... :-)
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 24th, 2011 at 9:40:07 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThe field bet ... a one roll bet.
one reason it can clean you out faster
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 24th, 2011 at 9:53:12 AM
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The lessons at the Venetian make use of a set of signs that cover the layout and emphasize the basic bets, payouts, etc.
I've long felt that dealer's schools should have an expanded layout such as you describe. Center bets and hop bets just don't need to be included in an introductory lesson.
I've long felt that dealer's schools should have an expanded layout such as you describe. Center bets and hop bets just don't need to be included in an introductory lesson.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:14:13 AM
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Quote: FleaStiff
On a Florida Day-Boat, they closed the craps table after they got hit by a team several years ago.
OK. I'll bite. What bet did this 'team' make that they had an advantage over the casino? Does this casino close a slot machine after someone hits a jackpot on it?
Also- stating that craps is a difficult game to learn is a damning statement about the general public. (I'm not saying it isn't true, just damning).
I would surmise one reason that craps seems to be die-ing is that to be able stay at the table for any lenggth of time you need lady luck to shine on you more than at other games like BJ, Pai Gow. I can go sit for hours at Paigow $10 table with $200 stake, but that might last me 15 minutes at craps. Of course in 15 minutes my $200 might be doubled at craps, and might be $230 at paigow with equivalent amounts of luck.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:16:28 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffThe lessons at the Venetian make use of a set of signs that cover the layout and emphasize the basic bets, payouts, etc.
I've long felt that dealer's schools should have an expanded layout such as you describe. Center bets and hop bets just don't need to be included in an introductory lesson.
Funny, halfwayu thru dealer school is when I thought of it. For as good as our dealer school was the ideas for improvement were so easy. I am still amazed they used my "rotation" idea almost exactly as I suggested. How they missed it before is beyond me.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
April 24th, 2011 at 12:01:12 PM
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Seems to be DIE-ING? OUCH!
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
April 24th, 2011 at 12:12:12 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOOK. I'll bite. What bet did this 'team' make that they had an advantage over the casino? Does this casino close a slot machine after someone hits a jackpot on it?
I presume the "team" is cooperating on past posting and other kinds of cheats. If you have a dealer as part of the team, it could be particularly effective.
April 24th, 2011 at 1:26:11 PM
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Sorry. My earlier post must have been unclear. About a decade ago the Florida Day Boat was targeted by a team of dice crooks that are well trained to block the Boxman's view at critical times, inject their own dice into the game, etc. This was several years ago and the casino's response was to simply not staff the craps table. Then a few years ago they reopened the craps table but were doing it only Friday thru Sunday, now its open Thursday evening through Sunday.Quote: SOOPOOOK. I'll bite. What bet did this 'team' make that they had an advantage over the casino?
April 24th, 2011 at 2:24:49 PM
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Where I play (mostly local's casinos in Henderson and Vegas) I see lots of players, and they are often young (~30 years old). It seems to be growing a bit to me.
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
April 24th, 2011 at 2:43:21 PM
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Quote: YoyomamaI seem to see the same old (older) faces each time I visit my casinos. No new blood. Do you agree? What is needed to get more and younger players?
Outside of LV I think craps is holding it's own. In the river boats I've seen a head count drop in the past 3 years, but the percentage of Craps action seems the same to me. As far as LV craps goes, I always have to lower my expectations when I visit LV. BJ and Craps both suck in LV. Far better rules, much friendlier outside of LV. Personally I'd not recommend a newbie start playing craps in LV. Much too intimidating and unfriendly there.
LV:
2x to 3/4/5
2x field 12
29/14x props
$10-15 min, low max bets (100x min)
dealers hustling tokes (not as bad as a used to be)
surly and rude box/pit
on the plus side, LV dealers are the fastest and most accurate.
riverboats:
20x-100x
3x field 12
30/15x props
$5 min, higher max bets (1000x min)
on the negative side, a lot of lumps, a lot of break ins
April 24th, 2011 at 3:17:34 PM
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Quote: fulkglOutside of LV I think craps is holding it's own.
Craps in Nevada is making just over $1million per day of which 70% is from the strip. But off strip rules tend to be more akin to your riverboat rules.
April 24th, 2011 at 4:14:20 PM
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Quote: fulkglBJ and Craps both suck in LV. Far better rules, much friendlier outside of LV. Much too intimidating and unfriendly there.
dealers hustling tokes (not as bad as a used to be)
surly and rude box/pit
Perhaps that is part of the reason why Indian casinos are doing so well. Why fly to Las Vegas and have rude crews when its going to be a more leisurely game locally and the crew will be friendly if a bit inexperienced? Why trek to Hollywood for a Trendy Restaurant when the food is better down the block at Joe's Diner?
Craps at Benny Binions used to be "the biggie". Chat with Benny Binion about a bowl of his Chili and you had reached the pinnacle of the gambling world. Meet the morning regulars: Guy in a Morning Coat, Mia (who never wore panties) and threw the dice under an upraised leg in her younger days and whose language made sailors blush. Now ... you probably would be better off on a Riverboat.
I think my perceptions of the crowds may be off the mark, but despite some Frat Rats and some darned good looking young ladies at the tables from time to time, I mainly see the Geritol set at the craps tables or else the occasional noisy drunken young punks.
April 24th, 2011 at 4:15:47 PM
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Where in Oregon? Is that the one in Coos Bay?Quote: MrVI shot craps last night at Chinook Winds Casino, a nice tribal casino on the Oregon coast.
The table was a fairly even mix of seasoned, aka older craps players and hordes of 20-somethings.
Lots of new, young players, at least on a weekend night, and their energy and emotion was neat to behold.
Kind of like how I felt when I was new to the game.
Don't write the obit just yet.
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
April 24th, 2011 at 4:18:35 PM
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Craps like most of table games is getting raked over the coals by the casino’s with inappropriate raising and jacking up the minimums .
Instead of maintaining constant table conditions they rather yo-yo the minimums to satisfy some mythical supply and demand theory. But in my opinion, 9 out of 10 times they drive away potential customers.
Craps is a game where not one bet is made, but several. This leads to larger bankrolls and bigger swings which often creates under-funding for many.
However, on the plus side I’ve noticed some Vegas casino’s have reduced their minimums. Unfortunately they tend to raise the minimums at the drop of a hat.
One of the worse local offender in Las Vegas is Red Rock casino.
$5 Craps goes to $10 when the table starts to fill up. And when it goes empty …. it goes back to $5.
If the goal is to keep craps alive and a potential Winner for the casino, they will have to come off their short sighted thinking.
In Las Vegas during the week …. I’ve found:
$2 craps at Arizona Charlie’s.
$3 craps at Suncoast, El Cortez, Sam’s Town, Fremont, Boulder Station, Texas Station, Fiesta - Rancho, Joker’s Wild, Sahara. (there are other’s )
On the Las Vegas strip … it’s hit and miss. Some places can vary from $5 to $15. (average) Other places from $10 to $25. The problem becomes what time of day, any big conventions or special events going on.
I believe if a casino truly has an interest in keeping Craps alive they can make it happen. They need to step up to the plate and develop a customer attitude base and quit limiting themselves to their bean-counter mentality.
I’ve just singled out one main issue, but there are others.
Comp’s, adversary relationships between customer and dealer/pit, poor customer attitude, lousy playing conditions, etc.
Instead of maintaining constant table conditions they rather yo-yo the minimums to satisfy some mythical supply and demand theory. But in my opinion, 9 out of 10 times they drive away potential customers.
Craps is a game where not one bet is made, but several. This leads to larger bankrolls and bigger swings which often creates under-funding for many.
However, on the plus side I’ve noticed some Vegas casino’s have reduced their minimums. Unfortunately they tend to raise the minimums at the drop of a hat.
One of the worse local offender in Las Vegas is Red Rock casino.
$5 Craps goes to $10 when the table starts to fill up. And when it goes empty …. it goes back to $5.
If the goal is to keep craps alive and a potential Winner for the casino, they will have to come off their short sighted thinking.
In Las Vegas during the week …. I’ve found:
$2 craps at Arizona Charlie’s.
$3 craps at Suncoast, El Cortez, Sam’s Town, Fremont, Boulder Station, Texas Station, Fiesta - Rancho, Joker’s Wild, Sahara. (there are other’s )
On the Las Vegas strip … it’s hit and miss. Some places can vary from $5 to $15. (average) Other places from $10 to $25. The problem becomes what time of day, any big conventions or special events going on.
I believe if a casino truly has an interest in keeping Craps alive they can make it happen. They need to step up to the plate and develop a customer attitude base and quit limiting themselves to their bean-counter mentality.
I’ve just singled out one main issue, but there are others.
Comp’s, adversary relationships between customer and dealer/pit, poor customer attitude, lousy playing conditions, etc.
April 25th, 2011 at 11:14:15 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffCraps at Benny Binions used to be "the biggie".
Agreed. But with the sad demise of the former, "center of the craps universe", which casino (not necessarily in Las Vegas) would now be considered the best place for serious gamblers to play Craps?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
April 25th, 2011 at 11:24:53 AM
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Quote: TinhornGamblerCraps like most of table games is getting raked over the coals by the casino�s with inappropriate raising and jacking up the minimums .
Instead of maintaining constant table conditions they rather yo-yo the minimums to satisfy some mythical supply and demand theory. But in my opinion, 9 out of 10 times they drive away potential customers.
Valid point! M resort is another offender. Sometimes they have $5 tables, sometimes not. You can't determine it ahead of time (it is not so clearly based on supply and demand, as I often see empty tables when they are in $10 mode) so I don't bother going there. (I am a low stakes player, and even when betting more I want the option to bet less when I want). GVR reliably ALWAYS has at least one $5 table, and sometimes three tables. So I go there.
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
April 25th, 2011 at 11:50:38 AM
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Quote: AyecarumbaAgreed. But with the sad demise of the former, "center of the craps universe", which casino (not necessarily in Las Vegas) would now be considered the best place for serious gamblers to play Craps?
For Downtown Las Vegas, the 32 craps tables make $2,365 / day for the last 12 months reporting. The bottom 3 casinos with 5 craps tables make $831 / day. Frankly, I think if a craps table doesn't even generate $1K per day you ought to give up the ghost and put in slot machines. The major casinos are still making $4K per table day.
I'm still inclined to say Main Street and El Cortez because they still have very generous rules for free odds. Main street is 20X, and El Cortez is 10X. Stratosphere is still 10X. The Strip only has that single table at Casino Royale.
6 GOLDEN NUGGET
4 BINION'S GAMBLING HALL & HOTEL
4 CALIFORNIA HOTEL AND CASINO
4 FREMONT HOTEL AND CASINO
4 STRATOSPHERE TOWER, CASINO & HOTEL
3 FOUR QUEENS HOTEL & CASINO
3 MAIN STREET STATION HOTEL, CASINO AND BR
2 EL CORTEZ
2 FITZGERALDS LAS VEGAS HOTEL AND CASINO
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2 GOLDEN GATE HOTEL & CASINO
2 LAS VEGAS CLUB HOTEL & CASINO
1 WESTERN HOTEL AND CASINO
April 25th, 2011 at 11:57:24 AM
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Ironically enough, probably the Horseshoe casinos, now owned by Harrah's. All of them have 100x odds, and the limits can go as low as $5 at times.Quote: AyecarumbaAgreed. But with the sad demise of the former, "center of the craps universe", which casino (not necessarily in Las Vegas) would now be considered the best place for serious gamblers to play Craps?
Locations: Hammond, Ind.; Louisville, Ky. (S. Indiana); Bossier City, La.; Tunica, Miss; Omaha, Neb. (Council Bluffs, Ia..) Coming soon: Cincinnati and Cleveland, Oh.
Some really serious craps players hang out at the Hammond one.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
April 25th, 2011 at 12:37:26 PM
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Right. And the casinos spend so much money on those darn players club cards and spend so much time talking about loyalty programs but the casino doesn't seem to really want a player's loyalty if they keep jerking the players around with uncertainty and whimsical action or actions that are at least viewed as being whimsical. Quite frankly, considering the food, wine and quality of the cocktail waitresses at the M Resort it is a terrible shame that you prefer GVR.Quote: DrEntropyI am a low stakes player, and even when betting more I want the option to bet less when I want. GVR reliably ALWAYS has at least one $5 table, and sometimes three tables. So I go there.
On-Edit: I recall being at a craps table where the minimum bet is displayed electronically. The display was lowered, not raised, during my play and I recall being annoyed that it had gone from 15 to 10 after less than twenty minutes of play. Can't they just make up their minds?
April 25th, 2011 at 12:55:56 PM
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Quote: teddysIronically enough, probably the Horseshoe casinos, now owned by Harrah's. All of them have 100x odds, and the limits can go as low as $5 at times.
Locations: Hammond, Ind.; Louisville, Ky. (S. Indiana); Bossier City, La.; Tunica, Miss; Omaha, Neb. (Council Bluffs, Ia..) Coming soon: Cincinnati and Cleveland, Oh.
Some really serious craps players hang out at the Hammond one.
The minimum at the Horsehoe Hammond on weekends is usually more than $5 though. You're better off finding a $5/100x odds table at one of the other Gary-area casinos (where everyone else has gone to 100x to compete with the Horseshoe) or one of the Harrah's-managed properties in Tunica.
But yeah, most of the bigger players gravitiate to Horsehoe Hammond. Eight tables there I think, and they're usually pretty full on weekends.
Otherwise, someone has to nominate the Santa Ana Star. I believe their odds only go up to 10x though. May be 20x, I forget, but it wasn't 100x.
April 25th, 2011 at 1:37:26 PM
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.....
April 25th, 2011 at 4:38:59 PM
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Quote: PeteMWhere in Oregon? Is that the one in Coos Bay?
No, you are thinking of The Mill Casino, which as of about one year ago had gotten rid of their only craps table.
The Chinook Winds Casino is in Lincoln City, Oregon, south of Tillamook, north of Newport.
It is about 28 miles west of Spirit Mountain Casino, which is in Grand Ronde; I usually play at both when I head out to dance with the devil.
Of the two, Chinook Winds gives better comps, and there is more to do in Lincoln City than gamble: that cannot be said for Grand Ronde.
"What, me worry?"
April 26th, 2011 at 9:50:28 AM
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While craps is one of the harder games to understand, I do not see it dying off anytime soon. In my opinion it is one of the most exciting games within a casino. The rush you get while rolling hot cannot be duplicated by VP/Slot machines or even other table games. For that reason alone it attracts people. Beyond that, Craps has pretty good value for the buck, as the smart craps game (pass w/odds) will cost you less than half a percent in -EV. Even with the 6/8 place bets thrown in the mix, the -EV is not bad at all. In terms of entertainment value for the dollar, craps is tough to beat.
Also, there is a wealth of information online for basic craps bets as well as free craps games. The younger crowd, who is savvy to the ways of google searching, will have no problem finding information and running through a couple thousand rolls online, before they actually step up to the table in a live casino. This takes the intimidation element down a few notches, granted it is still fairly high.
As was mentioned before, the only thing that can kill a young crowd is high table minimums. 20-something kids do not have the bankroll for a $15 minimum tables. They are probably most comfortable at $5 table.
Also, there is a wealth of information online for basic craps bets as well as free craps games. The younger crowd, who is savvy to the ways of google searching, will have no problem finding information and running through a couple thousand rolls online, before they actually step up to the table in a live casino. This takes the intimidation element down a few notches, granted it is still fairly high.
As was mentioned before, the only thing that can kill a young crowd is high table minimums. 20-something kids do not have the bankroll for a $15 minimum tables. They are probably most comfortable at $5 table.
April 26th, 2011 at 10:20:06 AM
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I think craps' nature of appealing to an older crowd has helped it during the recession.
Older people have the most disposable income of any demographic in the US. This is due to multiple factors: holding more prestigious jobs due to longer work experience, no kids to care for, pension/social security income, investments/savings and so on. The recession didn't hurt this group as much, and some were retired and didn't have a job to lose in the first place.
So craps has suffered far less than most other games have, at least in Nevada.
I think this also explains why craps draws an older crowd in the first place. In order to minimize the house edge you need to take as much odds as possible. That $10 table is really a $20-50 table (considering the amount of odds most craps players take). So you need a bigger bankroll to start with and also to withstand the greater variance than in BJ or many other games. Generally a higher percentage of 65 year-olds than 25-year olds will have $500 or whatever to drop at a craps table.
Older people have the most disposable income of any demographic in the US. This is due to multiple factors: holding more prestigious jobs due to longer work experience, no kids to care for, pension/social security income, investments/savings and so on. The recession didn't hurt this group as much, and some were retired and didn't have a job to lose in the first place.
So craps has suffered far less than most other games have, at least in Nevada.
I think this also explains why craps draws an older crowd in the first place. In order to minimize the house edge you need to take as much odds as possible. That $10 table is really a $20-50 table (considering the amount of odds most craps players take). So you need a bigger bankroll to start with and also to withstand the greater variance than in BJ or many other games. Generally a higher percentage of 65 year-olds than 25-year olds will have $500 or whatever to drop at a craps table.
April 26th, 2011 at 10:25:05 AM
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Quote: 7outlineawayI think craps' nature of appealing to an older crowd has helped it during the recession.
Older people have the most disposable income of any demographic in the US. This is due to multiple factors: holding more prestigious jobs due to longer work experience, no kids to care for, pension/social security income, investments/savings and so on. The recession didn't hurt this group as much, and some were retired and didn't have a job to lose in the first place.
So craps has suffered far less than most other games have, at least in Nevada.
I think this also explains why craps draws an older crowd in the first place. In order to minimize the house edge you need to take as much odds as possible. That $10 table is really a $20-50 table (considering the amount of odds most craps players take). So you need a bigger bankroll to start with and also to withstand the greater variance than in BJ or many other games. Generally a higher percentage of 65 year-olds than 25-year olds will have $500 or whatever to drop at a craps table.
Having $500 to drop and willingness to do same are 2 very different animals.
April 26th, 2011 at 11:53:39 AM
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Quote: 7outlineawayI think craps' nature of appealing to an older crowd has helped it during the recession. Older people have the most disposable income of any demographic in the US. So craps has suffered far less than most other games have, at least in Nevada.
It's an overstatement to say it has dropped far less than other games in Nevada. It has dropped slightly less. Horse race betting appeals to an older crowd also and had dropped by over half.
| baccarat | +10.58% |
| craps | -18.32% |
| roulette | -18.34% |
| 3 - card | -19.47% |
| sports | -19.99% |
| blackjack | -32.42% |
| race | -52.94% |
| other table games | -24.32% |
The real lesson in table games is that baccarat is the only improvement, and blackjack did much worse in every possible way. It was the first table game to begin decaying as much as 6 months before the recession really began, it dropped further, and came back far less.
The drop in roulette and craps is almost identical. Yet one is probably the easiest table game to play with almost intuitive rules, and the other takes some time and effort to learn the bets, the odds, and the protocol.
April 26th, 2011 at 12:00:12 PM
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Even a one horse town like Grand Junction, Colorado now has a horse race betting parlor. And yes, I have apologized to the horse since moving here.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:43:18 PM
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I agree that craps seems to be dying a slow death...since I've started playing a few years ago, I've noticed that the tables have been getting less crowded and ESPECIALLY less crowded with younger players. I myself am now 28, and no one is a "regular" player that's under 45...craps just doesn't appeal to the younger crowd because it's a real volatile game.
On a related note: I think gambling in general is going that way...as I've noticed no young-blood in the casinos regularly (tourists yes, but no actual "regulars")...but maybe I'm just an addict?
On a related note: I think gambling in general is going that way...as I've noticed no young-blood in the casinos regularly (tourists yes, but no actual "regulars")...but maybe I'm just an addict?
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
April 26th, 2011 at 6:20:34 PM
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I'm sure the casinos would like to see Craps go away in favor of some other game with a higher house take.
Craps is really one of the easiest games to learn if you stick to a few basic bets. The board was set up to confuse the players and offer sucker bets. I believe John Scarne was consulted on the layout.
Even with single only odds the house take is less than one percent on a pass line bet.
I won money last weekend at the Fremont . It can be done!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Scarne
Craps is really one of the easiest games to learn if you stick to a few basic bets. The board was set up to confuse the players and offer sucker bets. I believe John Scarne was consulted on the layout.
Even with single only odds the house take is less than one percent on a pass line bet.
I won money last weekend at the Fremont . It can be done!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Scarne
Member In Good Standing!
April 26th, 2011 at 6:45:04 PM
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Quote: BenJamminEven with single only odds the house take is less than one percent on a pass line bet.
Well, there is a difference between house edge and the take or hold or whatever. I understand, however, the significance of this. Craps Players listen to that stickman!
