Craps: Leaving a come bet and come odds "up"?

Last night I was at a craps table where the dealer paid me the winnings of a come bet, but left the original bet (with odds) *up*, and kept paying me the winnings every time that number was rolled. I did not have to make new come bets, I just let the old ones ride.

Is this legit?

I made tons of money this way, but I'm not sure what the dealer did is really consistent with official craps rules. It seems like leaving the come bet with odds up would be almost like a "free" buy bet, but the dealer placed no buy lammer on my chips and charged no vig. I'm also sure that the bet was not transformed into a place bet: the chips stayed in the middle of the box where come bets reside, and not moved to the side where place bets are -- and the payout was correct for come bet odds.

I can't find any craps game rules that mentions what the dealer did. None of the computer craps simulations let you do this, and no books or online craps guide mention the possibility of leaving come bets up.

I was afraid to ask the dealer whether what he was doing was legit, since I was making *loads* of money. :-)

You're right. The dealer should have taken the bet and odds down and returned them with the winning payout.

Was there no boxman running the table? Were you especially friendly and/or tipping?

The dealer may have been doing that to entice a tip....

I think one of two things may have happened. If you had a bet in the come then they will usually pay you the winnings, and your bet just stays up and leave five in the come.

If that was not the case then they may have just paid you your winnings and left the bet up but as a place bet rather than a come. I have had dealers ask if I want this done, and I have also had dealers just do it without me asking. Usually I don't care much either way, but it would be them doing something without asking you.

Also if I have been tipping I have had dealers leave that bet up but if it hits again pay it as a come bet and not a place bet. Depending on how much free odds you have on it that may or may not be advantageous.

Also rarely but I have had it happen if I have been tipping, sometimes I have had points from come bets up, and it is a new come out roll and a seven hits, if I have been tipping they have left them up before. That is definitely my fav.

I would assume it is not 'legit'. The money should be moved to signify that it is a buy or place bet. In the event you wanted to remove that bet if it appeared that the bet was a come bet that now had a point established you would not then be able to 'take that bet down'. But as far as the casino is concerned, as long as the it is not a '100x odds casino' or such, it wont hurt the casino. For example, if you have a $10 come bet and put $20 on your point, say, 4, if you win you get your $30 and an additional $50. If you instead simply place $30 on 4 you would win $54, so it would be better for you not to have the dealer do what he was doing. If your odds multiple was higher then it becomes better for you to do what the dealer did. If you made 'loads' of money, it was because variance was smiling on you, not because you had an advantage over the casino.

I think it's legit but not standard. It sounds a lot like after you won he was assuming a "put" bet. Was this on the 6/8?

Thanks for verifying my suspicion. It's true though, I was the only person at the table tipping. The boxman was there, but didn't seem to be paying much attention.

Interesting. I am not familiar with how put bets work, I just thought they were the same as a late pass line bet, which I never do. But I see on wizardofodds.com/craps that you can do a "put" bet on the come out roll. I also see that the house edge of such a bet is pretty unfavorable! So perhaps the fact that I made a bunch of money was dumb luck, and I should look in the future to taking down my bets.

To answer your question, this was indeed on the 8, but he also did the same for my bets on the 9 and 5.

To address some other responses on this thread: this was emphatically not a place bet, since the chips weren't moved to signify a place bet and, more importantly, I got payed out using the better schedule of odds bets instead of place bet schedule. This was also not a new come bet, since I had bet no money on the come.

Quote: ahiromu

I think it's legit but not standard. It sounds a lot like after you won he was assuming a "put" bet. Was this on the 6/8?

ahiromu is correct. Assuming it wasn't an off-and-on situation, the dealer basically just placed a put bet for you.

Alright well in the future just remember that a put bet has the exact same odds as a place bet on the 6/8 and 5/9. When it comes to the 4/10 it's better to have a place bet than put bet so you're getting scammed $1 for every $20 ($5 and $15 odds pays $35 compared to a place bet which would pay $36 for $20).

Let's say you made a $10 come bet and an 8 was rolled. You then add $50 in odds.

Then you make another come bet and another 8 is rolled. In my experience they would pay you $80 ($10 original come bet + $10 win on come bet + $60 win on odds bet), and assume you are moving your odds bet to the new come bet. If you are making come bets every throw they might give you $70 and leave $10 up as your next come bet.

If you didn't have a new come bet on the winning roll I would think it was dealer error.

Great. Thank you for clearing this up for me! It's good to know that, if I wanted to, I could reproduce this bet again at any table that allows put bets (did I mention my casino has 10x odds?).

@Wizard: I understand what you're saying but I was definitely not making a new come bet. What do you think about what others have said here, that this is simply equivalent to a "put" bet?

(PS: I'm honored that you have replied to this thread. Can I take this opportunity to say that I have been thoroughly enjoying your articles and analyses on this and your companion web sites? I think I probably owe you a bunch of money in winnings ;-) )

I agree an honor to have the Wizard chime in. I don't know that I owe him winnings, but I certainly owe him for losing a lot less and at least thoroughly understanding everything I play. Beyond that it's on me when I pump a Benjamin through some slot or throw that two way hard way.

The dealer should take the entire bet down and pay it. By leaving the entire bet up, he was essentially re-posting the original come bet for you, but without that bet having the benefit of the win-favorable initial roll on the come line. The effect is the same as a "put" bet, where you come to the table in the middle of a roll and want to jump in on the pass line. The house will let you put the pass line bet together with full odds on the pass line. The reason they'll let you is that it's a terrible bet. The odds bet is, of course, OK, but the line bet ("put") is not. For example, let's say the point is 5. You are now going to be paid even money on a bet that is 3:2 against you--and you never had the benefit of the pass-favorable come-out roll.

For the above reason, the dealer is NOT "legit" when he does this; he is ripping you off. By leaving those come bets "up", he's making a bet "for" you that has a house edge of either 16.66%, 33%, or 50%, depending on the come number involved. Not good!

If you had a come bet it may have been an Off and On without the dealer telling you, but the odds shouldn't have stayed on it.

Some casinos allow the bet to stay up as a Put Bet but most casinos don't allow put bets and I guess few crews really know what a Put Bet is anyway.

It could have been a mistake by a new or very busy dealer.

It could have been a "mistake" but only if the Box Man catches him at it. By that I mean, he will keep making that mistake in the hopes that you will realize he is doing something that benefits you and you will then toke him a bit generously as well.

It also could be simply that he felt tired of dealing to people who do not parlay bets and he was just trying to give you what he felt was "better action" than an endless series of minimum bets. Blackjack dealers sometimes take pity on a person who doesn't know how to play and just start dealing basic strategy, particularly if she is a young and attractive player and the dealer is male. Usually craps dealers just suggest things but don't actually do much more than leave an occasional bet still up when it should be taken down.

Quote: FleaStiff

Some casinos allow the bet to stay up as a Put Bet but most casinos don't allow put bets and I guess few crews really know what a Put Bet is anyway.

I'm curious why a casino would prohibit put bets, given their house edge. Does anybody have an idea why a joint would disallow them?

Quote: FleaStiff

If you had a come bet it may have been an Off and On without the dealer telling you, but the odds shouldn't have stayed on it.

If it were an off and on the odds would stay on wouldn't they

Quote: chworktap

Last night I was at a craps table where the dealer paid me the winnings of a come bet, but left the original bet (with odds) *up*, and kept paying me the winnings every time that number was rolled. I did not have to make new come bets, I just let the old ones ride.

Can you confirm what I think you are saying?

You put a $10 come bet, and an 8 is rolled. You add $60 in free odds and the thrower hits his point.
You expect to be paid $10 + 6/5*60 = $82 and have your original $70 returned.

Instead the dealer pays you $82 leaves the $70 untouched and unmoved and keeps on paying you $82 every time the 8 is thrown? Your feeling is if he would have converted it to a place bet it should now be paying $60.

At no time do you have a new $10 come bet on the table.

Is that correct?

Because if you do have a $10 come bet, like the Wizard says, he is just assuming you will put the same free odds.

Quote: pacomartin

Instead the dealer pays you $82 leaves the $70 untouched and unmoved and keeps on paying you $82 every time the 8 is thrown? Your feeling is if he would have converted it to a place bet it should now be paying $60.

At no time do you have a new $10 come bet on the table.

Is that correct?

I hereby confirm that is *exactly* what I'm saying. Yes 100% correct. Sorry that my explanation was unclear.

All,

I think the mystery is solved.

I went back to the casino last night and chatted with the dealer. This casino does indeed allow put bets. Combined with the fact that they have 10% max odds, that makes the put bet somewhat attractive in terms of house edge -- 0.83% on the 6 and 8 if I'm reading the wizard's craps page correctly which is better than a place bet on the 6,8 at 1.5% house edge.

To clarify: the dealer "leaving up" my come bet with odds is identical to making a put bet with my original come and then adding odds on the put bet using my original come odds. So, totally legit at this casino.

So... I "put" the 6 and 8 a few times and once again got lucky, doubled my money and left the table. :-) (YMMV)