Ratholing for better comps?

Wasn't sure where the heck to put this weird question but since I'll be playing craps if this idea actually has some merit to it, why not the craps subforum?

So the wife and I have an upcoming multiple casino trip coming up. I'll be taking more than I've ever taken on a gambling trip, lets say $5,000 as an example number, and plan on using some various strategies to run that $5,000 to say $6,000 or more. I'll have a stop win trigger set that when I hit say $6000, it's time to color up and go to the cage. From talking to dealers on reddit and even here,since comps are based in large part on three factors(initial buy-in, observed bets per hour, color up) in theory if you're "down" from your initial buy-in you can ask the pitboss for comp'd food, rooms, show tickets, etc. Depending on your play, the casino's rules, and the pitboss' mood you can get some or all of these things. From what I've been told/read, a lot of pitbosses are bad at keeping up with average bets per hour, and don't closely follow your wins/losses on that per hour basis at all.

So my question is, do any pitbosses or casinos actually care about how much "loss" you're showing from initial buy-in compared to when you color up, thus ratholing my wins would be advantageous or am I mistaken and most casinos could care less? I've only ever seen ratholing in context of hardcore baccarat players(MDawg), degen poker players, and BJ card counters.

I wouldn't trust dealers to mark down your rebuy-ins correctly or even figure out your losses right based on your cash-outs after a rebuy. At least with craps machines, there's electronics to rely on to figure your points. Dealers? I don't know. I tried betting single $12 bets at a table for an hour and got 12 points worth 12 cents so that's 1% per hour of the total bet. If I was trying to get some kind of useful comp from that, I'd have to be betting $500 on the felt (no odds) for 4 hours just to get a $20 meal comp. I don't know, maybe I was ripped off and other people get better ratings.

As for claiming a 10% loss rebate, if you lose your $5,000 buy-in, you might get a $500 comp if you played at least 4 hours.

I only rathole chips if I'm trying to save up for the next rebuy and I have a temporary win going on and I hit a win goal and want to restart a new session. Like if I had ten $500 sessions in my trip bankroll and spent 4 hours turning $500 into $1,000, I'd rathole $500 away and start over with a new $500 session and call it a win for the amount of time spent.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Wasn't sure where the heck to put this weird question but since I'll be playing craps if this idea actually has some merit to it, why not the craps subforum?

So the wife and I have an upcoming multiple casino trip coming up. I'll be taking more than I've ever taken on a gambling trip, lets say $5,000 as an example number, and plan on using some various strategies to run that $5,000 to say $6,000 or more. I'll have a stop win trigger set that when I hit say $6000, it's time to color up and go to the cage. From talking to dealers on reddit and even here,since comps are based in large part on three factors(initial buy-in, observed bets per hour, color up) in theory if you're "down" from your initial buy-in you can ask the pitboss for comp'd food, rooms, show tickets, etc. Depending on your play, the casino's rules, and the pitboss' mood you can get some or all of these things. From what I've been told/read, a lot of pitbosses are bad at keeping up with average bets per hour, and don't closely follow your wins/losses on that per hour basis at all.

So my question is, do any pitbosses or casinos actually care about how much "loss" you're showing from initial buy-in compared to when you color up, thus ratholing my wins would be advantageous or am I mistaken and most casinos could care less? I've only ever seen ratholing in context of hardcore baccarat players(MDawg), degen poker players, and BJ card counters.
link to original post

Pretty sure MDawg does not rathole. I do. At my guppy level I think it helps. No way to be sure. But I’m sure it doesn’t hurt! I can tell you for sure for a single green chip player they pay no attention if you rathole a green chip or two an hour. I know that by looking at my ‘win/loss’ statements.

In my opinion, comps are based about 80% on play and 20% win/loss. Personally, I don't think it is worth it and find it dishonest.

I advise casinos that if they catch players ratholing for purposes of inflating a loss rebate, I would not welcome their play in the future. I'm not sure how much they listen to that, as they hate losing players, even non-profitable ones.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Wasn't sure where the heck to put this weird question but since I'll be playing craps if this idea actually has some merit to it, why not the craps subforum?

So the wife and I have an upcoming multiple casino trip coming up. I'll be taking more than I've ever taken on a gambling trip, lets say $5,000 as an example number, and plan on using some various strategies to run that $5,000 to say $6,000 or more. I'll have a stop win trigger set that when I hit say $6000, it's time to color up and go to the cage. From talking to dealers on reddit and even here,since comps are based in large part on three factors(initial buy-in, observed bets per hour, color up) in theory if you're "down" from your initial buy-in you can ask the pitboss for comp'd food, rooms, show tickets, etc. Depending on your play, the casino's rules, and the pitboss' mood you can get some or all of these things. From what I've been told/read, a lot of pitbosses are bad at keeping up with average bets per hour, and don't closely follow your wins/losses on that per hour basis at all.

So my question is, do any pitbosses or casinos actually care about how much "loss" you're showing from initial buy-in compared to when you color up, thus ratholing my wins would be advantageous or am I mistaken and most casinos could care less? I've only ever seen ratholing in context of hardcore baccarat players(MDawg), degen poker players, and BJ card counters.
link to original post

You've been given bad info. At your level of play, 90% or so of how they rate you is average bet and time played. Buy in and win/loss will make almost zero difference. You could get some free food or get your room comp based on actual loss if you have a host or ask for one after losing multiple thousands. If things go as you plan (which they probably wint) and you win $1,000, but are able to hide it and let's say even another $1,000 in loss, that probably gets you nothing.

Go and have fun. You're probably going to lose. Prepare for that. Play things you enjoy. Get some free drinks. Don't worry about hiding chips and thinking it's going to get you a lot.


ZCore13

Quote: Wizard

In my opinion, comps are based about 80% on play and 20% win/loss. Personally, I don't think it is worth it and find it dishonest.

I advise casinos that if they catch players ratholing for purposes of inflating a loss rebate, I would not welcome their play in the future. I'm not sure how much they listen to that, as they hate losing players, even non-profitable ones.
link to original post

Average bet is of course a best guess/estimate most of the time unless someone flat bets the entire time. There is no way to track every bet like a slot machine can I estimate high for someone that is nice, shows their chips when leaving, tips or is in general a good person at the table. I estimate normal that just plays and doesn't bring any attention to themselves either way. I estimate low if they are intoxicated, causing stress at the table, ratholing or being abnormally loud.

A $25 player might get $50, $35 or $25 average bet based on the above criteria.


ZCore13

That's what other dealers and former pitbosses have confirmed for me as well, that many PBs have their attention divided elsewhere and only record some fraction of your bets per hour, which means your comp rating will likely be remembered more for initial recorded buyin and color up.

Really the main thing we are looking to do is get free food and show tickets, since we are going to be in a new area.

Here is the thing. People who tell you "ratholing ill helps" seem to think pit bosses do not watch for this kind of thing.

For comps they are going to look at your buy in first and most. You cannot lose more than your buy in. They will look at your bet level and what you bet. Your theoretical loss is going to play a huge role. If you bet just pass/DP expect to get zero to almost zero in player points for example. And do not expect that you can bet big for ten minutes then drop your bet to play the system. Again, the pit bosses watch The History Channel same as you do.

Do not expect to get some big comps for a one-time loss. Discretionary comps are going to go to regulars with a history of play. To show up the first time and get their attention is going to take some real big buy ins and play. I am talking $100 per hand or more types.

Quote: Wizard

In my opinion, comps are based about 80% on play and 20% win/loss. Personally, I don't think it is worth it and find it dishonest.

I advise casinos that if they catch players ratholing for purposes of inflating a loss rebate, I would not welcome their play in the future. I'm not sure how much they listen to that, as they hate losing players, even non-profitable ones.
link to original post

What other advice did you give Sands corp when you worked for them?
And what has come to fruitation at the expense of the player?

"At least with craps machines, there's electronics to rely on to figure your points."---ChumpChange

Unless they recently changed things, you don't earrn any casino rewards or credits playing the electronic machines. There is even a sign on every electronic machine saying you do not earn any points.

I earned 80 points on my last trip, so that'd be $480 of bets at a $3 level; multiply by 5 for a $15 table it'd be $4 of points for $2,400 of bets. But yeah, casinos don't know every bet has -EV except Odds even on machines. My $120 buy-in, which is too low and makes me bet too low, would be $720 at the $18 table (PB 6 & 8 mostly).

Quote: FatGeezus

"At least with craps machines, there's electronics to rely on to figure your points."---ChumpChange

Unless they recently changed things, you don't earrn any casino rewards or credits playing the electronic machines. There is even a sign on every electronic machine saying you do not earn any points.
link to original post

It is not every casino that does this.

Northern East Coast I would say it's about 50/50. That's just an observational guess

Quote: Wizard

In my opinion, comps are based about 80% on play and 20% win/loss. Personally, I don't think it is worth it and find it dishonest.

I advise casinos that if they catch players ratholing for purposes of inflating a loss rebate, I would not welcome their play in the future. I'm not sure how much they listen to that, as they hate losing players, even non-profitable ones.
link to original post

This is one of the few cases where I completely disagree with the Wizard. If the casino can't keep track of their chips it is not our responsibility to help them with it. I would agree that the casino should not offer loss rebate to those people if they are caught.

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Wasn't sure where the heck to put this weird question but since I'll be playing craps if this idea actually has some merit to it, why not the craps subforum?

So the wife and I have an upcoming multiple casino trip coming up. I'll be taking more than I've ever taken on a gambling trip, lets say $5,000 as an example number, and plan on using some various strategies to run that $5,000 to say $6,000 or more. I'll have a stop win trigger set that when I hit say $6000, it's time to color up and go to the cage. From talking to dealers on reddit and even here,since comps are based in large part on three factors(initial buy-in, observed bets per hour, color up) in theory if you're "down" from your initial buy-in you can ask the pitboss for comp'd food, rooms, show tickets, etc. Depending on your play, the casino's rules, and the pitboss' mood you can get some or all of these things. From what I've been told/read, a lot of pitbosses are bad at keeping up with average bets per hour, and don't closely follow your wins/losses on that per hour basis at all.

So my question is, do any pitbosses or casinos actually care about how much "loss" you're showing from initial buy-in compared to when you color up, thus ratholing my wins would be advantageous or am I mistaken and most casinos could care less? I've only ever seen ratholing in context of hardcore baccarat players(MDawg), degen poker players, and BJ card counters.
link to original post

You've been given bad info. At your level of play, 90% or so of how they rate you is average bet and time played. Buy in and win/loss will make almost zero difference. You could get some free food or get your room comp based on actual loss if you have a host or ask for one after losing multiple thousands. If things go as you plan (which they probably wint) and you win $1,000, but are able to hide it and let's say even another $1,000 in loss, that probably gets you nothing.

Go and have fun. You're probably going to lose. Prepare for that. Play things you enjoy. Get some free drinks. Don't worry about hiding chips and thinking it's going to get you a lot.


ZCore13
link to original post

Thanks for your input as a guy who is actually in the trenches. I would like to emphasize that pit bosses are humans, and I’m sure you’d agree ( think I’m sure?) that if I’m betting between $25 and $40 a hand one pit boss might rate me for $25, another$30, and another $40. And there must be little ‘fact checking’ of them. And if I’m nice and chatty it’s more likely to be $40 than if I’m rude and surly.

I played yesterday. Guy next to me is a regular that is there almost every time I go. Most times he bets $50 on two spots and $15 on each bonus. $130 a deal. Yesterday he started at double that on the main bet. $230 a deal. He was doing poorly. Bought in for $500 four times. The pit boss basically said he was going to up his average bet to compensate for his very poor luck today. Pit bosses are humans.

Old story. Decades ago (NYNY just opened) friend and I playing similar stakes virtually all the time together. I would start with a bet, let’s say $40, for a few hands while chatting with pit boss. Then slowly ramp down to table minimum. Maybe it was $10? Friend would flat bet $15, maybe $20…..
at end of trip I had virtually entire 4 night stay comped. He got 1/2 off ONE of his 4 nights.

Mike may say it’s unethical. I say it’s part of the game.

Quote: AZDuffman

Here is the thing. People who tell you "ratholing ill helps" seem to think pit bosses do not watch for this kind of thing.

For comps they are going to look at your buy in first and most. You cannot lose more than your buy in. They will look at your bet level and what you bet. Your theoretical loss is going to play a huge role. If you bet just pass/DP expect to get zero to almost zero in player points for example. And do not expect that you can bet big for ten minutes then drop your bet to play the system. Again, the pit bosses watch The History Channel same as you do.

Do not expect to get some big comps for a one-time loss. Discretionary comps are going to go to regulars with a history of play. To show up the first time and get their attention is going to take some real big buy ins and play. I am talking $100 per hand or more types.
link to original post

Well this is our first big boy buy in trip, and I do plan on putting out some major bets. Been watching John from ProCraps with his large regression strats and for half the bankroll we're going light side as I 'feel' a positive shooter. Other half will be on darkside bets which I've historically won really well on. Yes I'm theoretically overdo for a big loss after so many large "pay for the entire trip and then some" wins in a row. I'm aware. My average bet should be in the $200 range for any shooter that I plan on playing with, however I will not bet every single shooter especially when on the darkside.

I don't think pitbosses will notice me ratholing at a semi full table. Not that i'm some great magician at palming chips, but I know to wait until the dice are in the air and have a chip ready to palm and slip into my pockets. I wear cargo shorts pretty much all the time and have a stupid amount of pockets to slip chips into fairly quietly. Again the goal would be to show say $1000 loss or whatever a 'big believable' number is. Color up, call PB over during if he/she isn't there and ask for some food or show comps.

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Quote: AZDuffman

Here is the thing. People who tell you "ratholing ill helps" seem to think pit bosses do not watch for this kind of thing.

For comps they are going to look at your buy in first and most. You cannot lose more than your buy in. They will look at your bet level and what you bet. Your theoretical loss is going to play a huge role. If you bet just pass/DP expect to get zero to almost zero in player points for example. And do not expect that you can bet big for ten minutes then drop your bet to play the system. Again, the pit bosses watch The History Channel same as you do.

Do not expect to get some big comps for a one-time loss. Discretionary comps are going to go to regulars with a history of play. To show up the first time and get their attention is going to take some real big buy ins and play. I am talking $100 per hand or more types.
link to original post

Well this is our first big boy buy in trip, and I do plan on putting out some major bets. Been watching John from ProCraps with his large regression strats and for half the bankroll we're going light side as I 'feel' a positive shooter. Other half will be on darkside bets which I've historically won really well on. Yes I'm theoretically overdo for a big loss after so many large "pay for the entire trip and then some" wins in a row. I'm aware. My average bet should be in the $200 range for any shooter that I plan on playing with, however I will not bet every single shooter especially when on the darkside.

I don't think pitbosses will notice me ratholing at a semi full table. Not that i'm some great magician at palming chips, but I know to wait until the dice are in the air and have a chip ready to palm and slip into my pockets. I wear cargo shorts pretty much all the time and have a stupid amount of pockets to slip chips into fairly quietly. Again the goal would be to show say $1000 loss or whatever a 'big believable' number is. Color up, call PB over during if he/she isn't there and ask for some food or show comps.
link to original post

If you are putting that $200 on line bets, do not expect to get much in the way of comps. $200 line bet Xs 0.014 = $2.82 theoretical loss per roll. Figure about 7 rolls per hour. Your theoretical loss is not even $25. You are better taking full odds and forgetting the comps.

If a show needs to be papered* maybe they will give you tickets. But honestly, at the level of play you are talking I think they will more look at your player card history.

You need to remember one important thing. The kind of comp you are talking goes to winners, not losers. See, a winner gets comped to keep them on the property. They see the show or have dinner and keep thinking "lets see if my luck** keeps riding!" So they go back to the tables and maybe the laws of probability kick in and the casino gets some or all of their losses back.

But if you have lost big then your night is probably over.

*"Papered" or they need to fill the house so they hand out lots of free tickets (pro wrestling term)
**No such thing as "luck" but they think that way

This is the way comps work:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/36459-perpetual-comp-machine/

Comps are handed out based on two different bases:

1) Actual loss. Typically 10% of an actual loss is available for a player’s comps.
a. This was up to 15% during certain periods, such as for example in late 2020 right after the COVID shut down some resorts were giving 15% of actual loss, but 10% is the norm.

2) Theoretical (theo) loss. Typically 35% and up to 40% of a player’s theoretical loss is available for comps. Theo loss is calculated based on what the player is expected to lose, based on average bet times number of hours played against whatever the house edge is on the game being played.

So the only way ratholing is going to matter comp wise is if you rathole so much that you end up sufficiently in the red to to overcome what you would receive via theo loss. You don't get both - you get one or the other, whichever calculation benefits you greater - comps based on actual loss or theo loss.

Against that small possibility that your ratholing might put your actual loss in a position to benefit you more than your theo loss, there is the probably greater possibility that you become known as a jerk off that makes the pit boss' job harder, which would lead in turn to a lower likelihood that he would give you a higher average than you deserve. Pit bosses will "negotiate" a higher average for you, if they like you, see that you have been tipping their dealers, you ask in a friendly not aggressive way and the bump up is reasonable. They will also just flat out give you a higher average than you deserve without your asking if you are known as a good guy for the reasons I just outlined.

I sometimes just leave a session and don't even bring it up, but other times I do ask the pit boss what he has me down for average bet, and then suggest a higher number. Of all the times I asked I believe it was only once that a pit boss declined to bump up my average. I ask for probably the same reason SooPoo ratholes - force of habit, and to try to see if I can get away with it. But the difference is that if my average is bumped up from say 2200 to 3000 or more, it makes a real world difference, whereas SooPoo is probably just burning rubber with all his effort to rathole a green chip here and there.

There are times when I might be in a drawing and my theo loss over a given period determines how many tickets I get in the drum, so my theo might translate to more than just comps.

I have been around high limit tables where I have overheard pit bosses laughing about how "so and so" thought he was getting away with taking chips off the table, after the player has left.

I play at private tables where the rack is counted before and after each of my sessions, so obviously it doesn't matter what I take off the table, openly or not, anyway.

You guys ate forgetting to mention one key benefit of ratholing chips. Offsetting wins with losses. If I can show a 3k loss at the craps table after a 2500 slot win, or previous big table win I am good.

Ethical, unethical whatever.

I am a medium roller, and I do rathole chips. I think it is very beneficial.

If you do the math, my average buy in is 5k. If I rathole 1.5k a session, and have 7 sessions on the trip, then I will add an additional 10k in "actual loss". This adds up over the long run and I get full backend comped almost everywhere just purely off of my "losses". My real theo per 3 night trip tends to be less than 2k (which gets me nowhere close to backend comps at aria, wynn and others).

I try to play at full tables where some players are betting purples+. If they count down the rack and are missing 2k, they won't immediately think of me and the 4 purples I have in my pocket. If I am playing at a table by myself, I will not rathole (duh).

I don't take more than 5 chips off the table. Less than 5 is not too noticeable. Also obviously don't rathole purples when you're the only one who can conceivably have purples (applies to yellows, blacks, etc).

Always ask for average bet at the end of the session, and point out your ratholed losses as reasons to get rated higher. Works every time. Again, don't overdo it. MAX 5 chips.

Unethical? Sure. But the casinos are there to exploit you anyways.

You do this at the Bacc tables? You buy in for only 5000 and then try to take a third of that off the table every session?

When you write "My plan is to count baccarat side bets in America" it implies you're not from here. But then you mention Vegas casinos as if those are where you play all the time. You cannot get away with pulling 1/3 of your bankroll off the table every time, and this also implies that you're not making any money in the first place, don't win, if swiping 1500 results in a 1500 reported loss every time.

"If I rathole 1.5k a session, and have 7 sessions on the trip, then I will add an additional 10k in 'actual loss.'"

You have to end up in the red for "actual loss" to matter, not just lower your win.

Why do you care about your average bet if you're never getting much theo and always in a situation where your 10% actual loss exceeds your 35% or more theo?

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/36459-perpetual-comp-machine/

Quote: IntelligentMang

You guys ate forgetting to mention one key benefit of ratholing chips. Offsetting wins with losses. If I can show a 3k loss at the craps table after a 2500 slot win, or previous big table win I am good.

Ethical, unethical whatever.
link to original post

How are you good? The slot win is reported to the government, the table game results are not.

Those win loss statements for table games aren't the basis for what you are supposed to report your winnings to the IRS, you are supposed to report actual numbers.

My accountant has used those for 20 years. Never been questioned.

Your hiding chips off the rack or table doesn't change the actual results.

One thing to do that for comps, another to do it as part of a tax fraud scheme, especially against reported slots wins.

You also absolutely can rathole 1/3 of your buyin if your variance is sufficiently high. If you buy in 5k, and are swinging from 1k to 10k, it's pretty easy to take off 500 once in a while assuming there are other big players. The casino won't be staring at your stack when there's 3 players betting bigger.

Also as an AP, I want to hide some of my winnings from the casino.

Assuming the comp formula is max(10% loss, 35% theo):
If I have 2 trips, one trip is a 20k loss, and one trip is a 20k win, and I generated 3k of theo on both trips, then I will have 2000+1050 = 3050 in comps without ratholing.
If I ratholed 10k on both trips, I would have 3000 + 1050 = 4050 in comps.

As you know, comps do in a sense carry over from trip to trip (not entirely, but you will get more stuff upfront and can "underplay" them on your next trip). Ratholing is strictly better.

I play at private tables where the rack is counted before and after, but even when I played at public tables I wouldn't waste my time with what you are describing. I have enough to think about with their not catching on to the real plays I am doing.

I don't know what you mean by "swinging from 1K to 10K" and saying you are a medium roller, and yet you have so little theo that you have to swipe chips off the table to get comps. You're a study in contradictions, including your description of "in America" and alleged Vegas play, and a lot of what else you claim to describe. 🤩

You play that much in Vegas and don't even know which casino cuts away so much of the Bacc deck that there are sometimes under 70 hands a shoe? That's been going on for several years now.

What sort of AP are you doing losing 4X your table buy in per trip? If I did that I'd be losing millions a trip.

I won't derail this thread anymore arguing with you. My dms are open if you want to come at me there.