OkieBlake7
OkieBlake7
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July 27th, 2018 at 7:54:25 PM permalink
So Oklahoma is within months away from having Craps with real dice and Roulette with a real ball in their casinos. On paper, it would seem that this gets rid of the 'catch' when playing craps and roulette like there is now. As of right now, its either played on a video screen (roulette) or craps is played with cards or some other goofy workaround. But.. i'm hearing that the craps and roulette in Oklahoma will not be against the house but will be against the other players. Something about the money gets put into a pool and then someone wins it out of that. My question is basically 'what in the world does that mean?' Currently Blackjack and poker variants all play exactly like they do in Vegas so I don't understand why Craps and Roulette has to be treated differently. Can someone please educate on me on what to expect?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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July 28th, 2018 at 4:27:34 AM permalink
Sounds like Street Craps and it can't be good.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 28th, 2018 at 4:36:49 AM permalink
deja vu
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TigerWu
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July 28th, 2018 at 7:52:28 AM permalink
Craps and Roulette are scheduled to hit Oklahoma next week, on August 2nd, in some casinos.

EDIT: Okay, I've read August 2nd in one or two places, but then I just found this article saying it won't be until October, so I don't know.
Last edited by: TigerWu on Jul 28, 2018
TigerWu
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August 3rd, 2018 at 1:51:01 PM permalink
Craps and Roulette ready to go in Oklahoma.

Dealers have been trained, tables are in the casinos, all that's left is final approval from Department of the Interior. Unfortunately that could still be a couple more months.
Mission146
Mission146
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August 3rd, 2018 at 3:19:09 PM permalink
Greetings!

This is Oklahoma House Bill 3375, which is what allows Craps to take place inside of Tribal Casinos:

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2017-18%20ENR/hB/HB3375%20ENR.PDF

The first thing we know is that the game may not be house banked:

Quote:

"Non-house-banked table games" means any table game, including
but not limited to those table games involving a wheel, ball or
dice, operated in a nonelectronic environment in which the tribe has
no interest in the outcome of the game, including games played in
tournament formats and games in which the tribe collects a fee from
the player for participating, and all bets are placed in a common
pool or pot from which all player winnings, prizes and direct costs
are paid. As provided in this section, administrative fees may be
charged by the tribe against any common pool or pot in an amount
equal to any fee paid the state; provided, that the tribe may seed
any pool or pot as it determines necessary from time to time.



In other words, it seems like the tribe can charge whatever percent of the prize pool that it wants (similar to a rake in poker) provided they are paying the State of Oklahoma the same amount, or more.

This paragraph really confuses me:

Quote:

B. The Tribe agrees, subject to the enforcement and exclusivity
provisions of its Compact, to pay to the State ten percent (10%) of
the monthly net win of the common pool(s) or pot(s) from which
prizes are paid for non-house-banked table games. The Tribe is
entitled to keep an amount equal to State payments from the common
pool(s) or pot(s) as part of its cost of operating the games. For
all purposes, such payment shall be deemed an exclusivity and fee
payment under paragraph 2 of subsection A of Part 11 of the StateTribal
Gaming Compact between the electing Tribe and the State.



Reports claim that the state expects to generate over twenty million dollars in revenue as a result.

It uses the language ten percent of the monthly, "Net Win," so I don't really know what that could mean if it's not house banked. I can't tell if it means 10% of what the players themselves win or if it means 10% of what the house rakes. I'm guessing the former because the bill then goes on to state that The Tribe is allowed to keep an amount equal to the payments to the state.

If I had to guess, the tribe has to pay the state 10% of whatever players win and are themselves entitled to keep as much as 10% of what players win, thereby resulting in a 20% rake. I don't know how you would really apply that to Craps, though. I might try to call the casinos and see if I can get more information on Monday.

The only thing I know is that it's player-banked, but beyond that, I can't wrap my head around how you can apply that to Craps. That's especially true when it comes to center action type bets.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DJTeddyBear
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August 3rd, 2018 at 3:58:24 PM permalink
Quote: OkieBlake7

I'm hearing that the craps and roulette in Oklahoma will not be against the house but will be against the other players.

Sounds like the California card room situation, where there痴 a big player at the table who acts as the banker.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
Mission146
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August 3rd, 2018 at 4:02:20 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sounds like the California card room situation, where there痴 a big player at the table who acts as the banker.



Indeed, but don't the players in California pay a straight fee of $1 per hand to the house? I don't think the casino rake has anything to do with the amount won on either side, does it? This seems like it might be more like a poker rake.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
VCUSkyhawk
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146
August 3rd, 2018 at 5:42:05 PM permalink
I believe OK already has an ante in place for its games.
I got a plan, we take all your picks we reverse them like one of those twilight zone episodes where everything is the opposite. You say "black" we go white.
kakegurui
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August 7th, 2018 at 2:32:48 PM permalink
Oklahoma does have an ante system in place. If I was to guess they would do it like they do other table games. They don't bank like in California, instead playing the game generates a players pool. All of that money has to be redistributed to players in some sort of fashion. They do that by offering promotions and drawing usually. The casino is allowed to make I money based off of the antes and I think they can have a certain percentage of the player pool. Most of the money must return to the players though.

Some casinos wave the ante, which basically means they are paying it for you. They still have to account for that. By doing that it works like a constant promotion, they are basically taking your money from the player pool, and putting it in the ante money.

Not sure if that all makes sense.
PickMachine
PickMachine
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August 10th, 2018 at 11:59:15 PM permalink
So does anyone know what this truly means for the game of craps is it still traditional style where you can place bets on place numbers and win or is this some different type setup?
FleaStiff
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August 11th, 2018 at 5:56:52 AM permalink
I can't follow any of this stuff and doubt I would do better at following it after having some morning coffee.

I think the state is trying to get its money rather than let the casino get it. This appears to be a "the money goes into a pool, the state takes its cut and then the casino can do any math it wants to do". This avoids letting the casino be 'creative' prior to the state's getting its pint.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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August 11th, 2018 at 7:53:43 AM permalink
I saw a big billboard in town advertising craps and roulette "coming soon" to the Hard Rock here.

I'll be there in a couple weeks for an event, and I'll try to get some more info on how it will all work (if no one here gets there before me).
TigerWu
TigerWu
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August 21st, 2018 at 8:08:34 AM permalink
Craps and Roulette are now live in Oklahoma.

I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Puckerbutt
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Thanks for this post from:
TigerWu
August 21st, 2018 at 8:34:35 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Craps and Roulette are now live in Oklahoma.

I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.


Roulette is live at Riverwind Casino, but craps isn't. I only observed for a few seconds as I walked by but I didn't notice any 50-cent chips which was unusual as I've never seen any Chickasaw gaming property waive the ante. (Perhaps there is a loophole and the ante only applied when their version of roulette was card based?)

I'll be at Winstar (another Chickasaw property) the 22nd and 23rd and will check on what is available there if anyone is interested.
If'n I'd a knowed you wanted to have went with me - I'd a seen that you got to get to go.
Puckerbutt
Puckerbutt
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August 23rd, 2018 at 3:38:42 PM permalink
I've been to the following Chickasaw properties within the past 24 hours and the rules were uniform.

Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette

Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20

Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside

The following sign was at Riverwind only -
"Any spin that does not complete 4 rotations around the wheel will be considered a No Spin"

Winstar was the only one of the group that was setting up for craps and I saw 3 tables.
If'n I'd a knowed you wanted to have went with me - I'd a seen that you got to get to go.
klimate10
klimate10
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August 24th, 2018 at 9:15:10 PM permalink
According to the person in charge at Winstar, there will be an ante per come out roll. The ante is $1.

If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.

A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.

After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.

The game will be house banked, not player banked.

I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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August 25th, 2018 at 9:23:19 AM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt


Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette

Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20



Those minimums aren't bad at all for Roulette, even with the ante. Still terrible odds, but at least it's cheap.
Noncompete
Noncompete
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August 25th, 2018 at 10:37:30 AM permalink
Have all of the Oklahoma converted to real craps and roulette? Also, IIRC the casinos only charge a $1 ante on the come out roll, which really hurts if a 2,3,7,11, or 12 is rolled since you immediately have to pay it again.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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August 25th, 2018 at 12:05:48 PM permalink
Quote: Puckerbutt

Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette

Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20

Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside

Doesn't sound promising for the $5 bettor - an even-money bet becomes 5-6, with a house edge (assuming a double-zero wheel) of 13.16%. $10 bets (10-11) drop it to 9.57%, and $25 bets (25-26) drop it to 7.09%.
You think that's bad? $5 on a single number (the payout is now 175-6, or just over 29-1) has a house edge of 20.61%.
Keep in mind that these numbers are based on making only one bet per spin.

Or does "ante" not mean what I think it means - a fee for the privilege of betting, since this is how the casino makes its money?

Quote: klimate10

According to the person in charge at Winstar, there will be an ante per come out roll. The ante is $1.

If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.

A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.

After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.

Questions:
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is "everybody," then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is "no," then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?
TigerWu
TigerWu
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August 25th, 2018 at 12:39:23 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


Or does "ante" not mean what I think it means - a fee for the privilege of betting, since this is how the casino makes its money?



Yes, you have to pay the ante/fee with every coup.
klimate10
klimate10
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August 25th, 2018 at 12:42:15 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy



Questions:
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is "everybody," then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is "no," then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?



1. Everybody pays the ante.

2. No.

3. Not explained.
mustangsally
mustangsally
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August 25th, 2018 at 12:44:16 PM permalink
Quote: Noncompete

Have all of the Oklahoma converted to real craps and roulette? Also, IIRC the casinos only charge a $1 ante on the come out roll,

if that is true then if the dice roll slowly,


say 1 roll per minute = 60 rolls per hour
then one should, on average, expect to lose about $18 just from that fee.
IF the dice roll faster, say 90 rolls per hour, the average loss jumps to about $27 per hour just from that fee.
*****
I doubt that will last long.
Casino Morongo, in SoCal, had a losers pool and that went away
as did the $1 to play idea...
and I hear that was many years ago.
they been there done that. and the state of CA is RICH!!

maybe the type of players in that part of the country (USA)
have lots o money to burn
makes complete sense

well, no luck needed
Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
TigerWu
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August 25th, 2018 at 1:04:43 PM permalink
Quote: mustangsally


I doubt that will last long.
Casino Morongo, in SoCal, had a losers pool and that went away
as did the $1 to play idea...
and I hear that was many years ago.
they been there done that. and the state of CA is RICH!!



Oklahoma has had ante games for several decades now. They're not going anywhere unless they change the laws. California probably got rid of it because they were so close to Vegas and the competition was too strong. Oklahoma has no decent competition unless you want to fly somewhere or drive halfway across the country.
FleaStiff
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August 25th, 2018 at 1:16:45 PM permalink
Quote: klimate10


I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.

Getting screwed in Oklahoma must be more valuable to them than a trip to a real casino offering decent odds.
Noncompete
Noncompete
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August 25th, 2018 at 9:27:06 PM permalink
One thing that really irritates me is the dealers at one casino in OK tell players that OK is a 菟ay to play state and the ante is a tax that goes to the state. Total BS.
tringlomane
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August 25th, 2018 at 11:59:52 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Oklahoma has had ante games for several decades now. They're not going anywhere unless they change the laws. California probably got rid of it because they were so close to Vegas and the competition was too strong. Oklahoma has no decent competition unless you want to fly somewhere or drive halfway across the country.



Is Las Vegas the only decent competition? The closest "real craps/bj" casino from OKC is only 2.5 hours away (Wichita). Of course there is no competition nearby, but it does give you the games smarter gamblers are actually looking for. The nearest markets with some competition look to be closer to 5 hours away.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
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August 26th, 2018 at 7:23:41 AM permalink
Quote: Noncompete

One thing that really irritates me is the dealers at one casino in OK tell players that OK is a 菟ay to play state and the ante is a tax that goes to the state. Total BS.



I had understood this to be correct, that the state does get the ante money, that they do audit the games to ensure it's collected. State laws and gaming compacts do set the rates. The dealers where I played kept track with dummy chips each hand, and when they reached a round number, dropped a counting chip worth that in the bill box (about every 3 hands on a full table).

So what part of this is BS and the casino keeps the money? The activity of taxing the games itself, the amount, gaming tracking compliance, something else?

It's definitely a ripoff, in that a percentage of profits from casino wins in other jurisdictions goes to the govt of that jurisdiction, and yet the casino still SOMEHOW (sarcasm) manages to keep the lights on.

So the surcharge effectively raises the HE on all games, not just for the players, but also the profit expectation for the casino, because they're not taking the govt cut out of the win like most others.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
TigerWu
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August 26th, 2018 at 7:44:45 AM permalink
I can confirm the Hard Rock in Tulsa has two craps tables and three roulette tables.

The craps tables were packed elbow to elbow all the way around. I couldn't get close enough to see the minimums or how the ante worked.

Roulette tables were $5 minimum, $1000 maximum, and a little less crowded. I stood there watching for about ten minutes and still couldn't figure out the ante. I think the dealer was somehow keeping track and you paid it upon coloring up maybe?

Quote: tringlomane

Is Las Vegas the only decent competition? The closest "real craps/bj" casino from OKC is only 2.5 hours away (Wichita). Of course there is no competition nearby, but it does give you the games smarter gamblers are actually looking for. The nearest markets with some competition look to be closer to 5 hours away.



Fair enough, but I don't think most casual gamblers are going to put in a 3-5 hour car ride to save a couple points on the house edge.
JenKy
JenKy
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September 17th, 2019 at 7:09:59 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Yes, you have to pay the ante/fee with every coup.

ng

What if a point is won with other bets are still working (Come or DC with odds, place bets or hard ways)? Will an ante have to be paid again even if no further wagering is made? If the ante is not payed, what happens to the working bets already up?

What about making strictly prop bets w/o Pass/DP line bets after the come-out?

I'm going this weekend and would like to play craps, but if this ante business is really $1 per come-out, I'll be sticking to poker.
tomo0862
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November 19th, 2019 at 8:19:49 AM permalink
@JenKy - If you want your place bets / hard ways ON during the come out roll, you will be required to hand over the $1 ante. I don't play Come very often - never DC - my impression is that if it's a contract bet that must be ON during a come out roll, the ante will be required.

I get around this steep vig (20% on $5 pass line bet) by only playing place bets. I use the $10 Table Strategy shown by Color Up on youtube. Sure, I don't get to roll but, I'm a crappy roller anyway. Also, while everybody is pitching in their $1 chips for every come out pass line winner / loser, I'm cooling my jets with those chips safely in my rail. Putting $36 in play at once makes the vig go down to 2.7% - which I can live with.

How have I done with this strategy? First few times - at casinos without the ante - up & down. Busted my $300 bankroll once - usually in the + or - $150 range. First time I tried it an Winstar, two bad shooters then caught a hot shooter & walked away + $900!

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