mds
mds
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December 29th, 2016 at 7:58:10 AM permalink
WYNN has done it again. One table where the host office used to be. Do you see something missing? Why? Probably for some whale who is superstitious. Don't think this changes the HE in any way. Just takes the dark side away.

https://postimg.org/image/hr9bqfqbt/
RogerKint
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December 29th, 2016 at 8:06:37 AM permalink
Don't bets didn't appear til around 100 years ago and only did because of biased dice. Maybe it's a layout from the 1800s?
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LuckyPhow
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December 29th, 2016 at 9:00:10 AM permalink
Quote: mds


WYNN has done it again.


Zowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.

Does NV have things called "rules" about how table games are structured and played? This news article from today seems to suggest the state does provide oversight:

Vetting Nevada痴 casino games

But, with all the "piling on" about paid parking, I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't collusion amongst Vegas casinos about how to stick it to the gaming public more and more. Oxford dictionary declared the "Word of the Year" for 2016 is "post-truth," meaning something like, "not true, but we want it to be taken as true." As to the "post" part, that's just another word for "shaft," and I know who's gonna get the shaft -- you and me!
DJTeddyBear
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December 29th, 2016 at 9:07:09 AM permalink
Incredible.

And, I would think, against the rules. On the other hand, Crapless Craps doesn't have a Don't bet either.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SanchoPanza
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December 29th, 2016 at 10:10:34 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Incredible. And, I would think, against the rules. On the other hand, Crapless Craps doesn't have a Don't bet either.

I have found tables in and around Tahoe and Reno that do not have Don't Come bets on their layouts. So far, I haven't found that in Clark County.
FleaStiff
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December 29th, 2016 at 10:26:37 AM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow

Zowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.

Alas, its probably being set up as a way to speed things up and provide fewer opportunities for dealer error. Seldom used bets are seldom scanned by neophyted dealers; surveillance can get confused by the dealer 'proving' his chip payout for the camera when a player on the don't side speaks up about an overlooked don't bet. And if its really really simple you don't need to retain dice crews or try to keep them happy.

You don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows; you just need an MBA.
FleaStiff
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December 29th, 2016 at 10:32:31 AM permalink
Hate to tell you guys but a dealer at teh old Terribles did this on his own initiative: he took a razor blade and shaved the felt where the words Don't Come were, leaving just the box.

He did not like being yelled at for missing the box on his eye scan and it was used so seldom that he just solved his problem the easy way. I think some MBA may have been watching and copied it.

In street craps much of the action was booked between players. In Bank Craps the house takes ALL bets both Do and Don't, but since most bets are always Right Way bets, it makes sense to an MBA to change the layout and dealer training to simplify, simplify, simplify and speed up the shearing process.
MathExtremist
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December 29th, 2016 at 10:49:09 AM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow

Zowie! I hope the table is being set up for some kind of old-time cowboy movie, or some-such.

Does NV have things called "rules" about how table games are structured and played? This news article from today seems to suggest the state does provide oversight:

Not the way NJ does. The NJ rules are codified by law; the NV rules are either regulations or looser. Also the NGCB tech lab only deals with EGMs; table games aren't "gaming devices" under NV law. A table game with multiple bets may be approved but that does not mean those bets must always be spread. Historically in craps, there were a series of bets called "don't place" bets. But you never see those -- they're approved but not offered. The passline is an approved wager, so there's nothing preventing a casino from setting up a dice table with just a pass/come area and literally no other wagers, as long as the actual rules for pass and come were the same. That'd be allowed in NV without further approval (if I'm interpreting the process correctly), but in NJ it would need government action. According to the NGCB agent who used to be in charge of table game approvals, the switch to 6:5 naturals on blackjack should have been formally approved (it wasn't) because it's a real rule change. But simply erasing don't pass or the entire prop box isn't a rule change, it's just the casino choosing not to spread those bets.

Technically, I guess that means a Nevada casino could also carve off the "13" spot on the roulette table for a high roller with triskaidekaphobia...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
RogerKint
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December 29th, 2016 at 10:59:08 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

I have found tables in and around Tahoe and Reno that do not have Don't Come bets on their layouts. So far, I haven't found that in Clark County.



Their layouts make a lot more sense because the DP/DC is the same area. No more tossing cheques across to the DC and all don't bets travel.
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RS
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December 29th, 2016 at 1:14:27 PM permalink
It could have been setup for a whale...and that was my initial reaction. But after looking at it for another minute, it appears that's not true -- there are far too many low denom chips in the bank (IMO) for it to be a high-roller table.


What's funny is there is still a place on the layout for the traveled DC bets (box behind the numbers).
DJTeddyBear
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December 29th, 2016 at 3:06:57 PM permalink
Quote: RS

What's funny is there is still a place on the layout for the traveled DC bets (box behind the numbers).

That could also be for lay bets, but I agree with you that it's weird.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ahigh
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January 9th, 2017 at 3:47:07 PM permalink
From Wynn Resorts (WYNN) Stephen Alan Wynn on Q2 2015 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

---- 8< ---- cut here ---- 8< ----

Stephen Alan Wynn - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

And, for example, last June we held 32% on a couple hundred million dollars. This year, our casino is behaving normally at over $21 million, but we made $60 odd million last year. We have these we get the benefit of these tremendous big players. But when you have one of these giant months where you win all the money, the next year it always looks a little funny. In the end it all evens out, but we see these volatility fluctuations. But, our base business tends to be pretty steady. And Shaun, I guess that's the best way to explain it. We had more Chinese play last year than we did this year, and I mean a place like our own, we can make $60 million in a month in this hotel or $70 million. We can also make $25 million, and as I say, it evens out at the end. But when you look at it, short term, as we do every six or eight hours a day, I do at least, I'm in the casino every day and on the phone with my people. We've readjusted our floor on the Fourth of July and interestingly enough, many of the games in Las Vegas have become marginally profitable. Years ago down at Binion's, they started at the crap table of giving ten times odds. If you bet $100 on the line, you could bet $1,000 on the free odds behind the line if you bet the pass line. I'm getting a little technical. But in the old days in dice, whatever you bet on the line you could bet the same amount behind the line, and that was a hold percentage of a little under 1%.

Then they started giving double odds compared to the amount of money you bet on the pass line, and that lowered the house percentage to 0.57%. Then there became a pattern on the strip of what's called the three, four, five. Depending on what numbers you were betting on the crap table to come up before number seven came up, you could get three times odds, four times odds, or five times odds. There are pairs of numbers on a dice table. Four and ten have two to one odds, five and nine have a different set of odds, and six to eight or six to five.

Well, depending on what number you were trying to get, you could get three, four, or five times odds. That became a house advantage of 0.37%. With three dealers and a box man and a half of a floor man for every table, craps is not a really profitable game at that level.

So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price, and I went to double odds only except for extremely high play with $1,000 minimum bet. I also rearranged the floor in the casino to put our specialty games that are very popular with the public that have a higher margin and I put them in the 100% location and I moved my games with less of a margin to secondary locations. Those changes have worked out favorably to us in the past three weeks, and that kind of re-examination our slot floor has been redone. We win more money with less games now. These are some of the reasons why we make more money than anybody else in Las Vegas.

Now some of the operators will copy us. We're not allowed to talk to one another because of obvious legal implications of price-fixing, but we don't really care what the other guys do. We run our own business the way we see we should, and we're not in business to offer games that don't make money, and I don't mind saying that publicly. So, we've done quite a bit of work in tightening up the way the casino works, and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.

We're constantly re-examining everything we do here. We sit in my office and discuss the most fundamental aspects of this industry every single week, and we take nothing. We are not so much concerned of what has been or what is as we are concerned about what might be, and that's a principle truth of our company, whether it's in China or in Las Vegas or Boston or wherever. Next question?

---- 8< ---- cut here ---- 8< ----
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Rigondeaux
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January 9th, 2017 at 4:24:17 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow


But, with all the "piling on" about paid parking, I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't collusion amongst Vegas casinos about how to stick it to the gaming public more and more. !



Maybe one problem with oligopolies is that you don't need to explicitly collude.

MGM charges for parking. CET follows. Now, it's pretty much done. Anybody who holds out will have their parking structures overflowing with people trying to save $10.
TheoHuxtable
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January 9th, 2017 at 4:35:02 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.

Has anywhere on the strip copied this move? Casino Royale went down to 3x4x5x but we know they didn't do that in response to Wynn.
Views are my own...
tringlomane
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January 9th, 2017 at 4:57:47 PM permalink
Quote: TheoHuxtable

Has anywhere on the strip copied this move? Casino Royale went down to 3x4x5x but we know they didn't do that in response to Wynn.



Not yet. Probably because it was a marginal gain at the expense of patrons' happiness. Now slashing the "Small/Tall/All" that was over a double HA gain at likely a lower expense of patrons' happiness. All the other strip casinos converted in a couple of weeks over that one.
GWAE
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January 10th, 2017 at 3:54:57 AM permalink
Whoa.. wb
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
MB
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January 10th, 2017 at 4:41:05 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

From Wynn Resorts (WYNN) Stephen Alan Wynn on Q2 2015 Results - Earnings Call Transcript

---- 8< ---- cut here ---- 8< ----

Stephen Alan Wynn - Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

And, for example, last June we held 32% on a couple hundred million dollars. This year, our casino is behaving normally at over $21 million, but we made $60 odd million last year. We have these we get the benefit of these tremendous big players. But when you have one of these giant months where you win all the money, the next year it always looks a little funny. In the end it all evens out, but we see these volatility fluctuations. But, our base business tends to be pretty steady. And Shaun, I guess that's the best way to explain it. We had more Chinese play last year than we did this year, and I mean a place like our own, we can make $60 million in a month in this hotel or $70 million. We can also make $25 million, and as I say, it evens out at the end. But when you look at it, short term, as we do every six or eight hours a day, I do at least, I'm in the casino every day and on the phone with my people. We've readjusted our floor on the Fourth of July and interestingly enough, many of the games in Las Vegas have become marginally profitable. Years ago down at Binion's, they started at the crap table of giving ten times odds. If you bet $100 on the line, you could bet $1,000 on the free odds behind the line if you bet the pass line. I'm getting a little technical. But in the old days in dice, whatever you bet on the line you could bet the same amount behind the line, and that was a hold percentage of a little under 1%.

Then they started giving double odds compared to the amount of money you bet on the pass line, and that lowered the house percentage to 0.57%. Then there became a pattern on the strip of what's called the three, four, five. Depending on what numbers you were betting on the crap table to come up before number seven came up, you could get three times odds, four times odds, or five times odds. There are pairs of numbers on a dice table. Four and ten have two to one odds, five and nine have a different set of odds, and six to eight or six to five.

Well, depending on what number you were trying to get, you could get three, four, or five times odds. That became a house advantage of 0.37%. With three dealers and a box man and a half of a floor man for every table, craps is not a really profitable game at that level.

So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price, and I went to double odds only except for extremely high play with $1,000 minimum bet. I also rearranged the floor in the casino to put our specialty games that are very popular with the public that have a higher margin and I put them in the 100% location and I moved my games with less of a margin to secondary locations. Those changes have worked out favorably to us in the past three weeks, and that kind of re-examination our slot floor has been redone. We win more money with less games now. These are some of the reasons why we make more money than anybody else in Las Vegas.

Now some of the operators will copy us. We're not allowed to talk to one another because of obvious legal implications of price-fixing, but we don't really care what the other guys do. We run our own business the way we see we should, and we're not in business to offer games that don't make money, and I don't mind saying that publicly. So, we've done quite a bit of work in tightening up the way the casino works, and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably everybody knows that the minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like a wildfire. But those are some of the things we're doing and it touches every aspect.

We're constantly re-examining everything we do here. We sit in my office and discuss the most fundamental aspects of this industry every single week, and we take nothing. We are not so much concerned of what has been or what is as we are concerned about what might be, and that's a principle truth of our company, whether it's in China or in Las Vegas or Boston or wherever. Next question?

---- 8< ---- cut here ---- 8< ----



This is utter nonsense. It is exceedingly rare for a craps player to either 1) increase their line bet or 2) change their length of play due to the table having lower odds. So, even though the combined edge (of the line & odds bet) is higher, the expected loss won't change, Also, in my experience, less than 1% of craps players play optimally (P/C/DP/DC with max odds).

Basically, I'm extremely skeptical that changing the craps odds from 345x to double odds could materially impact the casino's bottom line and consume that amount of air time on a quarterly earnings call. I don't doubt that he really believes he "changed the casino".
RS
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January 10th, 2017 at 5:52:13 AM permalink
Quote: MB

This is utter nonsense. It is exceedingly rare for a craps player to either 1) increase their line bet or 2) change their length of play due to the table having lower odds. So, even though the combined edge (of the line & odds bet) is higher, the expected loss won't change, Also, in my experience, less than 1% of craps players play optimally (P/C/DP/DC with max odds).

Basically, I'm extremely skeptical that changing the craps odds from 345x to double odds could materially impact the casino's bottom line and consume that amount of air time on a quarterly earnings call. I don't doubt that he really believes he "changed the casino"



Indeed. A bulk of the income on a craps table does not come from PL/DP/come/DC bets. Sure, some will increase their flat bets.

Let's assume 100 rolls per hour, to make the math easy. If someone is doing $100 continuous come & pass line bets, he's giving up 100 * $100 * 0.0141 = $141/hour.

With a 10.1% HE on hardways (average I reckon), to lose that same amount per hour, he'd have to put up $1,396 in action (let's call it $1400). With 100 rolls per hour, that averages $14 per roll in required action. With 4 different hardways, that's $3.5 per hardway.

Of course, he isn't betting that low on the hardways. He's probably got at least $25 on each all day. That's $100 in action, or a $10.10 in EV for the house, per roll! That's $1,010 in EV per hour.

Wait, but there are also place bets! And one-roll hop bets. And the ATS bets. (Chances are he won't have come bets + place bets all the time though, typically one or the other). Even ignoring these other super-bad bets, he's giving up $141 + $1,010 or $1,151 in EV per hour to the house. If he doubles his pass & come wagers, that'll increase the EV/hour from $1151 to $1292, for a 12.25% increase in revenue. Which is pretty good, admittedly.

But chances are, the typical player isn't making continuous come wagers, but a pass line wager, with the $25 on each hardway with $400 average action on the place bets. So instead of $141 + $1010 in EV (first player), it's more like $40 + $1400 in EV for a more typical player ($40 being the hourly EV he gives up on pass only and $1400 for hardways plus place bets). By doubling his pass line bet, his hourly EV goes from $1440 to $1480 for a 3% increase in revenue for the table.

I don't know how frequently a PL bet is resolved, so the $40 in more of a guess, as well as the $1400. But it's likely more than $1400 and less than $40, which would further decrease the revenue for the casino.


It was said in the article or whatever it is above -- casino will make quite a bit one month and not so much the following. I'm thinking the casino just "ran good" after making the switch and they may have been "running bad" prior to the switch.
MB
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January 10th, 2017 at 2:42:26 PM permalink
There is no way the "average" craps player is losing $1k/hr. Very few people can afford that level of action.
Ahigh
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January 10th, 2017 at 3:02:06 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I don't know how frequently a PL bet is resolved.



3.38 rolls if made during the comeout.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/2
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