Consumer Warning - Unbalanced Casino Dice for Sale
.jpeg "Bohemian"){kind=small}
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal. Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!- $42.99 total. Order now
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Heavy's Axis Power Craps Link
You should take off the superglue :-)Quote: BohemianIn the thread 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!, Heavy states:
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal. Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Heavy's Axis Power Craps Link
At the end of your video you say "YOU CANNOT WIN PLAYING WITH UNBALANCED DICE"
Explain why you can't bet with the bias and win.
Quote: BohemianIn the thread 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!, Heavy states:
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal. Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Heavy's Axis Power Craps Link
Do they all end up like that? What's going on, is the pip weight different per volume or why would the combination of the 4/5/6 always be down? Forty two bucks and change, wow.
Quote: AxelWolfAt the end of your video you say "YOU CANNOT WIN PLAYING WITH UNBALANCED DICE"
Explain why you can't bet with the bias and win.
you can win if you know the bias, however more than 90% of the craps websites and resources (including this one) preach that casinos use fair dice and fair odds so unsuspecting players have no idea what to look for ... consider this post when trying to win:
Quote: BohemianMany recreational craps players or weekend players do not understand either, only craps players that play often enough to see both fair dice and unbalanced dice in play.
Below is a chart from page 15 of the book "How to Control Fair Dice" showing how dice can be unbalanced in 26 different combinations -- how do we know which imbalance we are playing with today compared to tomorrow.
If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
Quote: BohemianIn the thread 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!, Heavy states:
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal. Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Heavy's Axis Power Craps Link
Excellent Job Bohemian,
Now the Nay-Sawyers will Hammer Reality, which somehow they "cannot comprehend", even with the Excellent Video of Unbalanced DICE that You provided for them to OBSERVE with their own EYES!
Next, we have to get to the bottom of the Unbalanced Dice Mystery!
eagleeye2
Naysayers will want proof he himself didn't tamper with the dice. They will want to know if all or how many dice come like this. Do they ever favor the players?Quote: eagleeye2Quote: BohemianIn the thread 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!, Heavy states:
Quote: Heavy on Sunday Sept 28, 2014 in 2015 Axis Power Craps Dice are IN!Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal. Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Heavy's Axis Power Craps Link
Excellent Job Bohemian,
Now the Nay-Sawyers will Hammer Reality, which somehow they "cannot comprehend", even with the Excellent Video of Unbalanced DICE that You provided for them to OBSERVE with their own EYES!
Next, we have to get to the bottom of the Unbalanced Dice Mystery!
eagleeye2
I want to know how much this bias actually affects the HA. START ROLLING THEM.
I don't care what DI/DC classes teach because it's all BS anyway.Quote: BohemianLOL - AxelWolf - No superglue - these are brand new, non canceled dice, handled with laboratory gloves
you can win if you know the bias, however more than 90% of the craps websites and resources (including this one) preach that casinos use fair dice and fair odds so unsuspecting players have no idea what to look for ... consider this post when trying to win:Quote: BohemianMany recreational craps players or weekend players do not understand either, only craps players that play often enough to see both fair dice and unbalanced dice in play.
Below is a chart from page 15 of the book "How to Control Fair Dice" showing how dice can be unbalanced in 26 different combinations -- how do we know which imbalance we are playing with today compared to tomorrow.
If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
Personally I don't care if the casinos use biased dice (I prefer they did). If you all are confident it's happening why nor organized research team up and crush the casinos? It can't be to hard to Identify and track the biased dice, then take advantage of it. Perhaps the biases are so insignificant it doesn't matter.
If People can track biased roulette wheels and beat them, certainly people could do the same with dice.
eagleeye2 Naysayers will want proof he himself didn't tamper with the dice. They will want to know if all or how many dice come like this. Do they ever favor the players?
I want to know how much this bias actually affects the HA. START ROLLING THEM.
"Absolutely, that is a KEY QUESTION that needs to somenow be estaBLISHED"
note: AxleWolf, You may have missed it, But Bohemian Posted this to you:
Bohemian
Member since: Apr 18, 2013
Threads: 8
Posts: 128
""LOL - AxelWolf - No superglue - these are brand new, non canceled dice, handled with laboratory gloves""
Zero Reason Not to Believe Him, even though the Nay-Swayers may want to!
eagleeye2
Quote: petroglyphDo they all end up like that? What's going on, is the pip weight different per volume or why would the combination of the 4/5/6 always be down? Forty two bucks and change, wow.
They said they could not find a single balanced die. Every one of the dice were Heavy unbalanced favoring the 5/6 to the bottom. Maybe "Heavy" stands for Heavy loaded dice - that could be Heavy's new marketing slogan.
dba Axis Power Craps
PO Box 7094
Tyler, Texas 75711
on his website:
Quote: Heavy on Sat Apr 25, 2015 postedMy dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/
Quote: BohemianThey said they could not find a single balanced die. Every one of the dice were Heavy unbalanced favoring the 5/6 to the bottom. Maybe "Heavy" stands for Heavy loaded dice - that could be Heavy's new marketing slogan.
Bohemian,
Heavy also states ""these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.""
Obviously not so for Balance, Nor likely for Dimensions across Flats on the same DIE, as I got the following on the Three Sleeves of NEW DICE I purchases & are reported in the table in my post.
(5 DICE / SLEEVE) Dice # 1 2 3 4 5 MAX
Lot # 24902 1~6 to 2- 5 to 3-4 0.0008 0.0007 0.0012 0.0004 0.0011 0.0012
Lot # 37469 1~6 to 2- 5 to 3-4 0.0004 0.0006 0.0008 0.0010 0.0011 0.0011
Lot # N/A 1~6 to 2- 5 to 3-4 0.0006 0.0032 0.0004 0.0019 0.0003 0.0032
Bohemian, if you have access to a Micrometer, measure the Dimension across Flats (1~6 to 2- 5 to 3-4) on a sleeve of Heavy's Dice, avoiding the PiP's, which are Raised 0.0002/3 inches. Post the variation between the 5 Dice like I have above.
My data, posted above, shows a Maximum of 11 to 32 times the 1 / 10,000 Inch dimensional variation Heavy Claims.
Now, that tolerance is likely impossible in plastic, rather reserved for something like an Engine Crankshaft, etc.
Even with the Dimensional Variation I measured, I doubt that it is sufficient to produce unbalance in a DIE.
Somehow, we have to get to the bottom of the Unbalance Condition Observed, & how it affects the Numerical Outcome of a set of Dice thrown on a CRAPS Table.
eagleeye2
If the rig is fair, and dice are unbalanced, could the bias have been introduced when the gold foil hot stamp was placed on the "one" face?
Quote: AyecarumbaI'd like to see the performance of "balanced" dice in the same rig. Just to prove that the testing device is fair.
If the rig is fair, and dice are unbalanced, could the bias have been introduced when the gold foil hot stamp was placed on the "one" face?
Ayecarumba,
How could the Balancer in the Video be UNFAIR???
You saw it with your own eyes & most Dice rocked back, settling with the heaviest point downward thus Verifying Extremely Low Friction Between the DIE & the Balancer.
Gravity was the only thing acting on the dice, & Gravity is one of the FOUR Universal Forces of Nature, Period.
eagleeye2
Quote: AyecarumbaI'd like to see the performance of "balanced" dice in the same rig. Just to prove that the testing device is fair.
If the rig is fair, and dice are unbalanced, could the bias have been introduced when the gold foil hot stamp was placed on the "one" face?
Ayecarumba,
How could the Balancer in the Video be UNFAIR???
You saw it with your own eyes & most Dice rocked back, settling with the heaviest point downward thus Verifying Extremely Low Friction Between the DIE & the Balancer.
Gravity was the only thing acting on the dice, & Gravity is one of the FOUR Universal Forces of Nature, Period.
eagleeye2
Quote: AyecarumbaI'd like to see the performance of "balanced" dice in the same rig. Just to prove that the testing device is fair.
None of Heavy's dice received were balanced. You are looking at a free spin reacting to gravity on 2 different level rigs - what else do you want ?
Quote: Heavy on Sat Apr 25, 2015 postedMy dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Midwest Game Supply also makes the same casino grade dice balancing caliper used by over 90% of casinos and Gaming Commissions worldwide:
Link to Midwest Gaming Supply Calipers
Quote: AyecarumbaIf the rig is fair, and dice are unbalanced, could the bias have been introduced when the gold foil hot stamp was placed on the "one" face?
Possible, but also the resin compound in the 6/5/4 pips could be heavier than the cellulose acetate cube or the acetate itself could be weighted differently from side to side similar to a fishing bait worm head vs. tail.
Quote: DanMahoneyYou're treading on thin ice Bohemian and eaglenose. This data comes from directly from Harley and his buddy superick and unathorized use of their paranoid material could result in a subsquent lawsuit. Just me saying...
DanMahoney - here's the problem with your argument - no casino or even Gaming Commission wants to go into court and put their dice on to a dice balancing caliper for the world to see what they really do behind closed doors. No casino wants their unbalanced equipment (dice) subjected to expert scrutiny in public and on public display.
No Gaming Commission wants the public to know that they have failed the public and patrons of their fiduciary responsibility.
Why do you think Steve Wynn has his dice destroyed after they leave the craps table - he does not want any incriminating evidence left behind! Caesar's did the same before their accountants said they needed every penny so they started selling their used dice for more than they buy them for.
Quote: DanMahoneyThat is not my argument. I'm concerned Superick and his sidekick Harley might get upset with you guys stealing their material.
DanMahoney, My sincere apologies, I misunderstood your post. I visit Las Vegas regularly and play with SuperRick and Harley often. Their goal is simply a public service announcement and to share ideas. I think eagleeye2 has been proper with his reference links and I have also tried to I hope.
But every regular advantage craps player I have met that lives in Las Vegas knows the casinos shuffle biased dice in from time to time. It's pretty common knowledge among savvy craps regulars.
Other than the fact that some people will do anything to try to prove something.Quote: eagleeye2
Zero Reason Not to Believe Him, even though the Nay-Swayers may want to!
eagleeye2
System bettors (especially ones who play baccarat ) DI's make crap up all the time. See search baccaratform97, varmenti, gr8player and many others.
Didn't we have a craps player Walk dice to the end of the table and place them on Ahigh's show after making some bet?
I don't know him so I believe him, but before I suggests anyone go searching for an advantage here, I would want some more proof.
I seem to remember a high having a special caliper made because he found the average caliper to be inadequate.
Quote: AxelWolfDidn't we have a craps player Walk dice to the end of the table and place them on Ahigh's show after making some bet?
I think that was Harley, in a gorilla mask.
LOL.Quote: DanMahoneyI'm not sure if that was a mask.
Quote: WizardI think that was Harley, in a gorilla mask.
Harley looks better with the mask on.
It is just too bad that not a single one of them, or anyone else for that matter, can name a single casino that uses such dice.Quote: BohemianBut every regular advantage craps player I have met that lives in Las Vegas knows the casinos shuffle biased dice in from time to time. It's pretty common knowledge among savvy craps regulars.
Quote: AxelWolfOther than the fact that some people will do anything to try to prove something.
I seem to remember a high having a special caliper made because he found the average caliper to be inadequate.
Yes, we have to Applaud "Ahigh" for his efforts; unfortunately his $2,000 Caliper is much more complicated & introduces more FRICTION into the Balance Equation, thus the $46 one, from Gamblers Supply, (assuming one uses the latter optimally).
Bottom Line Problem Craps Players thus face is::
1) Verified Unbalanced Dice are, sometimes, being used in Casino's
2) We are unsure exactly how this Unbalance affects the results of two Die Being Rolled On A Craps Table
3) Apparently no one here Knows Just How these Unbalanced Dice are Made to Exhibit Unbalance
4) Balance Caliper Verifies that the #6 & #5 Faces are Heavier than are the # 1 & # 2 faces
Somehow, we have to get to the bottom of the Unbalance Condition Observed, & how it affects the Numerical Outcome of a set of Dice thrown on a CRAPS Table.
eagleeye2
Quote: SanchoPanzaIt is just too bad that not a single one of them, or anyone else for that matter, can name a single casino that uses such dice.
oh I have seen the list, but why would I share on a public board where the gold is SMH. But here is a sample.
Casinos using Biased Unbalanced Dice:
Link to Casinos Exposed
Quote: BohemianThe Suncoast Casino & Gold Coast Casino in Las Vegas (Boyd group) now have a “REPEATER BET” on one of their crap tables. This “REPEATER BET” requires a shooter to roll repeating numbers from 2 to 6 before any Seven . (the numbers 2 thru 6 do not have to be rolled sequentially to be counted) However, the Seven (even on the comeout) makes all repeater bets lose. All comeout numbers 2 thru 6 will count toward the repeater number. Prior to a new shooter's comeout roll, bets must be placed with the boxman ... on the numbers 2 thru 6 or any individual number … cost is $1 to $10 on each number selected.
For a Limited Time Simple Repeater bet terms:
Only numbers rolled 2 thru 6 are counted for the repeater bet ... before any Seven. Numbers 8 thru 12 add no value to the repeater bet.
Requirements for Payouts:
The number 2 (snake eyes) needs to be rolled twice for a $40 payout for each $1 bet.
The number 3 needs to be rolled three times for a $50 payout for each $1 bet.
The number 4 needs to be rolled four times for a $65 payout for each $1 bet.
The number 5 needs to be rolled five times for a $80 payout for each$1 bet.
The number 6 needs to be rolled six timess for a $90 payout for each $1 bet.
Normally this bet would be fun in most casinos, however Gold Coast has commissioned a new set of dice just for this new bet. Gold Coast has been using 2 sets of 3-digit numbered serial dice for over 5 years, until this bet was installed. (I do not have enough data to determine if Suncoast is doing anything similar)
Now Gold Coast has a brand new set of dice that are 4-digit serial numbers with a skinny small pink font. Of course these new set of dice are unbalanced to favor the higher numbers on the table so the House Advantage on this repeater bet has been increased more than the normal math would suggest.
The 6, 8, 9, 10 and 11 will consistently roll more often than their smaller sister numbers. It's not even close. Local players know to increase their Bonus Bet on the 6 as that bet will payoff almost 4:1 more than the other Repeater bets (2,3,4,5). Most 6s thrown are of the 5/1 variety. Most Hard 6 bets do not even break-even paying off at only a 5% clip, less than any other Hardway bet on this Gold Coast table.
Also, you can tell that Gold Coast is related to Sam's Town as they do NOT let you repeat this Repeat bet on the same shooter after a Come-Out 7 unless the 7 was on the very 1st roll. In other words if the shooter tosses an 11 then a 7, all proposition Repeater bets are losers and cannot be bet again until the next shooter. What other Casino will NOT allow any bet offered in the casino (especially a proposition bet) to be bet again, other than Sam's Town and Gold Coast once it loses ?!!
What Gold Coast has done by inserting these newly commissioned unbalanced dice that favors higher numbers blows a cannon-ball hole into the Steve "Heavy" Haltom and irish theory that casinos do not purposely insert certain types of biased dice onto the tables to increase the House Advantage.
Additional proof to the statement that Gold Coast is using specially commissioned Biased dice on this Repeater Bonus Bet table that favors the larger numbers - This Data is only from the Gold Coast Repeater Bonus Bet table with the new 4-digit pink serial numbers:
Point - Passed Percentage Rate*
5 - Only 20% of the 5s established as Points successfully Pass, 80% fail or DP
6 - 71% of the 6s established as Points successfully Pass
8 - 50% of the 8s established as Points successfully Pass
9 - 75% of the 9s established as Points successfully Pass
10 - 57% of the 10s established as Points successfully Pass
* of course this is data shared with me from various playing sessions, not 100% of the Casino working hours.
It's harder to make the Point of 5 when so many of the 6 and 5 die faces keep occurring on so many rolls.
(CONSUMER WARNING - Since this Gold Coast data was 1st published almost 60 days ago, Gold Coast has since changed their dice and the Repeater Bet)
Quote: DanMahoneyHey Joe what do you know?
I know that if this is true:
I am going to mortgage my house, rent a Brinks truck, drive to the Suncoast, and buy the 10 all day long.Quote: Bohemian57% of the 10s established as Points successfully Pass
Quote: Zer0So how about we do it like this: pay attention to the serial numbers printed on the dice of the shooter next to you, and use the same ones when it's your turn if you notice a pattern. Don't expect any results but hey, if your that paranoid just do that.
Zer0 - that would be a great idea except all the dice on the same table have the same serial number. You may instead just ask the Stickman quickly before he dumps the bowl of dice that you would like to have the "Same dice as the previous shooter please". If the casino will not allow this option, you know something is fishy and you should take your business elsewhere.
Quote: DanMahoneyThanks for the post Joeman but I really was refering to Joe the Bohemian.
Quote: DanMahoneyHey Joe what do you know? Still not convinced that was a mask.
I agree.
Quote: eagleeye2Ayecarumba,
How could the Balancer in the Video be UNFAIR???
You saw it with your own eyes & most Dice rocked back, settling with the heaviest point downward thus Verifying Extremely Low Friction Between the DIE & the Balancer.
Gravity was the only thing acting on the dice, & Gravity is one of the FOUR Universal Forces of Nature, Period.
eagleeye2
I'd like to see what a "balanced" die acts like in the same calipers. It is similar to placing an object of known weight on a scale to verify accuracy.
To my untrained eye, it does not appear that that the corner of each die is in the center of the clamp. locking the die slightly lower in the clamp will cause make the die "swing low" no matter what face is on the bottom. I acknowledge that it could be the camera angle making the position seem off center too. In any case, I'd like to see a "balanced" die spin, then come to a stop without rocking. I would expect a different face to be on top each time.
I've found more fitting background music for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ
Now we just need Benny Hill to spin the dice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iiR93z-Ebg
Quote: AyecarumbaTo my untrained eye, it does not appear that that the corner of each die is in the center of the clamp. locking the die slightly lower in the clamp will cause make the die "swing low" no matter what face is on the bottom. I acknowledge that it could be the camera angle making the position seem off center too. In any case, I'd like to see a "balanced" die spin, then come to a stop without rocking. I would expect a different face to be on top each time.
Ayecarumba, you are correct, the rocking motion is the imbalance reacting to the earth's gravitational pull.
The universal Caliper cups are large enough to accept different size dice from around the world including board game dice so the dice are resting at the bottom of the cup to allow a free spin. You have to be cautious not to put the smaller casino dice like these in the center of the cup because the pressure to keep them that high in the center will also act like a bike brake caliper pad and keep the dice from spinning freely, thereby fooling Mother Nature and the laws of gravity.
Quote: AyecarumbaI'd like to see what a "balanced" die acts like in the same calipers. It is similar to placing an object of known weight on a scale to verify accuracy.
See this video for more balanced dice with the same casino grade balancing caliper:
Link to more balanced dice test
Quote: BohemianAyecarumba, you are correct, the rocking motion is the imbalance reacting to the earth's gravitational pull.
The universal Caliper cups are large enough to accept different size dice from around the world including board game dice so the dice are resting at the bottom of the cup to allow a free spin. You have to be cautious not to put the smaller casino dice like these in the center of the cup because the pressure to keep them that high in the center will also act like a bike brake caliper pad and keep the dice from spinning freely, thereby fooling Mother Nature and the laws of gravity.
See this video for more balanced dice with the same casino grade balancing caliper:
Link to more balanced dice test
Actually, I'd like to see the balanced dice in the same calipers used in the video in the original post. Otherwise, it's like putting a kilogram weight on a scale to demonstrate that it reads 1 kg., but then using a different scale to weigh the object in question.
Quote: AyecarumbaActually, I'd like to see the balanced dice in the same calipers used in the video in the original post. Otherwise, it's like putting a kilogram weight on a scale to demonstrate that it reads 1 kg., but then using a different scale to weigh the object in question.
That's a good idea. Why don't you try that and get back to us with your results.
What's that supposed to mean?Quote: BohemianDanMahoney, yes I agree. Different people test differently. As long as you get a free spin and let the law of gravity do it's thing.
That's a good idea. Why don't you try that and get back to us with your results.
I just got back from Laughlin. I played 3 casinos. Each casino was using an almost burgundy red large dice.Quote: BohemianThey said they could not find a single balanced die.
This was absolutely the fastest I have lost money in 35 years. Out of appx. a total of 12 other players I played with, I only recall a dozen points being answered. If someone didn't believe what Bo has been saying had they been with me today it might have made them wonder?
By far the majority of 7's came 6-1.
Quote: petroglyphI just got back from Laughlin. I played 3 casinos. Each casino was using an almost burgundy red large dice.
This was absolutely the fastest I have lost money in 35 years. Out of appx. a total of 12 other players I played with, I only recall a dozen points being answered. If someone didn't believe what Bo has been saying had they been with me today it might have made them wonder?
By far the majority of 7's came 6-1.
petroglyph, sounds like Laughlin is trying to get overflow from the Fight of the Century profits by increasing the house advantage with the extra $$ in town. Normally the Mirage has $10 tables on Thursday afternoon. Yesterday, they were already $25 to $50. So sounds like Laughlin pulled out what we refer to as the dark "burgundy red large" Indian dice early for Fight weekend:
Quote: BohemianReceived this email from M of Oregon
While playing craps at at the local Indian Casino I spent a moment and took a very close look at the dice.
In describing this die with people who are trained in physics and engineering, without a doubt such a construction of the die would absolutely make it unbalanced towards the six to such a degree that it would have an effect to normal bell curve in the numbers rolled that you see with fair dice with the peek at the seven, but these dice would have a triple peek with the 4 and 10 as the smaller peeks and the seven as the high peek, much higher than normal. In short, these dice increase the house vig.
Playing a normal craps games with these altered/badly manufactured dice, using normal betting methods as taught by experts in so many craps books absolutely fails. Even certain Dice Influence/Dice Control techniques are rendered useless by these dice.
Now it is agreed by all the experts that altered dice can be overcome and used against the casino, and that is exactly what people are doing, that is till the casino catches on and then they switch the dice out. A very smart friend of mine said that if he ran a casino he would absolute want the dice to be 100% balanced because someone could very easily come in with just the right size buy-in and use biased dice to take down the casino. I stated that many players have figured this out, and the casino watches the table very closely and will change dice out if they see someone capitalizing on the bad dice.
Read on to see what exactly occurred.
This is my account of what happened at a local Indian casino while playing craps.
I showed up 4 pm and they had the clear red dice out on the table. These dice are about as fair as the dice come at this casino though the complaint, as always at this casino is “short rolls”. I really don’t take too much stock in that complaint where a six roll is actually very common in the short view of a table, and 8.3 rolls as an average given millions of rolls. I tend to look at the frequency of what numbers come up and these dice tend to follow the normal expected frequency bell curve for dice throws. When I got the dice, I made 4 points by setting the dice to the dice set most likely to hit that point and was hitting the numbers. Table was considered HOT, perhaps too hot for the casino as well.
At 4:30, after one of my good rolls, pitboss comes over and put in the Dark Red opaque dice “the chillers”, and these are the bad dice that are heavier than the others and very unbalanced in my opinion as how I described above when I had a moment to take a closer look. So, now everyone is throwing craps and 6-1 seven outs. The don’ts players are not happy either because of the come out sevens discourage them from betting. Everyone is getting pasted!
One player talks about an half hour roll the other day, a legionary roll in this casino! So, given the slow ‘turtle speed’ of the dealers I am guessing a high thirty rolls to low 40’s. This tells me that the players are now accustom to short rolls, they don’t seem to bitch too much but most have greatly lowered their buy-ins as of recent changes to the tables.
Around 5:30 I leave to go eat dinner and return just before 7pm.
Crew change at 7:00 and no new dice show up, so we are still using the same dark red opaque dice.
At approximately 8:30pm a local player who is known as a ‘Wealthy Bastard’ starts raking in chips on the table by betting $200 on the 4 or 10, hopping the 4 or 10 and maxing out the 4 or 10 hardway. This guy once hit all three, and multiple times hit the place bets. Boxman and pitboss phone is busy, apparently they don’t like what they are seeing and losing a couple of grand that fast. This guy knows these dice as do a few other players. If you play the outsides, field and horn bets you can profit on these dice.
Come 9:45pm the casino has had enough of the losing chips and the pitboss come over with new dice, the Frosty Red dice.
The frosty dice are not as bad as the dark red opaque dice but as Mr. B has stated are still bad dice, though not as bad as the dark red ones.
Around 11:40 pm I decided I have had enough and head home. Not a winner this time, but learned something.
This Indian casino has a love/hate relationship with the craps table. At times they over do it with the bad dice where I have walked in on a few Saturday evening that is bustling with people to find an empty craps table. I have asked, what’s going on? And the dealers always say, And as always it is the Dark Red dice out on the table. In the past I never knew why the table would turn ice cold to the point of driving everyone away, though now in reflection of the past events I know why.
(I have written permission from the author to publish this email)
Interesting. My of course travelling around in my own little bubble, never considered the fight of the century. Laughlin just had their biker river run and dealers at each casino remarked how few players showed up compared to prior years, so I assume the table holds were reduced as well.Quote: Bohemianpetroglyph, sounds like Laughlin is trying to get overflow from the Fight of the Century profits by increasing the house advantage with the extra $$ in town. Normally the Mirage has $10 tables on Thursday afternoon. Yesterday, they were already $25 to $50. So sounds like Laughlin pulled out what we refer to as the dark "burgundy red large" Indian dice early for Fight weekend:
Your reply reminded me, I was sent a free be coupon from the AQ, a 30 dollar one which is large for me, I could only play it on the blackjack table [?] which I did, low and behold I won the one free bet. It turned into 30 real dollars and not sixty, so I tipped five and went back to losing at craps. My point is, at the blackjack tables there were two players betting stacks of black, which caught my eye as I don't usually see that large of wager very often in L-town. Could well be visitors in for the fight.
I will be ever more aware of the cubes. I even tried playing the darkside on my throw, yep, yo's. Merciless. Guys playing the left handed [dark] side were doing better than I, but they also had newbie going for them? It just struck me strange that the one house that always uses small dice went to the big burgundy's. One guy that had an ok roll was heaving them almost violently from the TE and at times the dice didn't hit the felt first. Some kind of dice [fists] of fury or something? lol
Quote: Bohemianpetroglyph, sounds like Laughlin is trying to get overflow from the Fight of the Century profits by increasing the house advantage with the extra $$ in town. Normally the Mirage has $10 tables on Thursday afternoon. Yesterday, they were already $25 to $50. So sounds like Laughlin pulled out what we refer to as the dark "burgundy red large" Indian dice early for Fight weekend:
That is such a lame comment it's almost laughable. Actually I did laugh. You really have no clue what goes on within table games and your accusations are close to slanderous. If I was in one of these places that you say things about how they use biased dice and switch in/out biased dice on purpose, you wouldn't believe how fast I'd have an attorney telling you to shut up or prove it in court.
Every die, every chip, every card is tracked from factory to floor to removal. They are all handled the same and used the same. None are singled out to be biased or unbiased. None are tracked for their bias and recorded.
The caliper test shown in the video is about as reliable as hand written numbers showing bias in throws. The corners of the dice didn't even look like they were in the middle of the calipers.
This whole thread is laughable.
ZCore13
