CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
Setting the dice isn't enough to make a cheating case. Perhaps the dice are lucky if you have snake eyes facing up or down. It's equivalent to tapping the hold buttons on and off a few times on VP before you make a final hold and draw .Quote: MathExtremistI've wondered this for years. Cheating is a felony in Nevada, but so is just attempting to cheat. If you think dice setting alters the odds and you try to do it, why isn't that a crime? And under the same theory, why isn't it a crime to teach dice setting seminars?
Before when people mentioned DI may be cheating, I thought that was absurd.
It's obvious DI isn't deemed cheating because it doesn't work.
Same reason you can use a pen and paper at a Baccarat table.
I realize that a cheating attempt doesn't have to be successful. But, I though they had specific laws regarding craps play. As long as the dice toss fell within that criteria you were fine? Perhaps NV doesn't define a legal shoot. Something like scooting the dice doesn't fit the criteria. But, if you think about it, DI would be technically cheating if there isn't a specific criteria, especially if DI could alter the outcome. Its just a different much less effective(zero effect) form of scooting.
Cheating or not I wouldn't be surprised if a lawsuit gets filed.
Quote: AxelWolftapping the hold buttons on and off a few times on VP before you make a final hold and draw
slowly but surely we are learning your secrets!
This isn't common knowledge? I assumed it was because some of the local senior citizens periodically practice this method. They know it's benefits, but they don't do it properly.Quote: odiousgambitslowly but surely we are learning your secrets!
I was going to save this secret for my book, but since the secret it now out I can touch on the subject. I guess it needs a name now "Rhythm tapping" sounds good (RI). Eventually it will be called Button control when the Breaking Vegas episode comes out. My new name, the Tappinator. We will probably have to settle on button influence.
Secret tip: If you are playing VP and get dealt A♠ Q♠ K♠ 10♠ 4♦ After holding the A♠ Q♠ K♠ 10♠, but before you draw, quickly tap hold On and off, slight pause, quickly wack hold On and off the 4d, then quickly draw. Tap tap pause tap tap wack. This can be used for any combination of cards, however its best to stick with one card draws. This way you always know exactly what card to rhythm tap.
It takes years of dedicated practice and testing to learn the correct rhythm for each dealt combination without an instructor. Getting dealt something like AAA is a complex situation. AAA can require up to 16 taps, occasionally just 2. I can teach someone who's dedicated in just a few weekend classes.
Unlike craps, you can gain a VP advantage off the top before using the Rhythm tapping method. The worst RT can make a minimum of $12 an hr anytime 24/7 365.
Some RT's can get thousand in value per hr.
RT classes are generally cost significantly less than DI classes.
It's also far easier to learn. I can teach practically anybody. An RT in training actually has an advantage the very first hand he plays.
The casino perks are far better.
Unlike DI, VP has been a proven Advantage play method for years with many successful players, Some boast of millions.
-----------------------------------------------
Warning:
Actual Results may vary and you are hereby warned that this valuable trick in this post is performed by professionals. Do not attempt to duplicate or recreate the same or similar tricks at actual casinos without proper instruction and supervision, as personal injuries and monetary damages may result. The poster of this post is not responsible for any such injury, criminal or financial damages.
Quote: MathExtremistThat was excellent gibberish. Prove to me that you're not a Markov chain sentence generator.
You first. I'm not the one who's avoiding real issues with ad hominem remarks; and going on and on for, in my opinion, nothing. And, I'm not the one who's making big claims, if any.
I prefer to stick to the obvious. There are so many things to think and do without the preexisting and obligatory restrictions and "baggage" of casinos and their gamblers once we get beyond the concept of failing lazily with built-in excuses as "casino heat" and confused online gamblers.
If I'm not mistaken, you claimed, eg, that the Wizard made a profit of 20 million dollars with this site. Prove it! On the other hand, I can prove that he passed the cup to keep it up and running a while back. Curious as well. But, if it's none of my business, then please refrain from repeating such claims.
You spoke also of his "exit" from this profit. So tell me, if it's such a great passion to create a gambling forum from the same old gambling math to sell casino stuff for casinos, then what's the Wizard's next really big adventure or passion in life? A lot of people go off and make a lot of money, only to position themselves poorly. To discover nobody really cares, or even knows they exist. Curious as well.
Trying to understand what drives people to participate in what I perceive as making nothing of something. Anyway, appears that the Wizard is still obligated here.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not sure what you're asking about being verified.Quote: ShineyShineQuote: MathExtremistClocking is different than sector shooting. Clocking is done by players, sometimes in cahoots with dealers, by using orbital mechanics to identify the trajectory of the ball as it decays. This has already been proven to work in a casino using computers; that's one of the reasons you can't use computers in casinos. See Thomas Bass, "Eudaemonic Pie"
Sector shooting is what you're talking about. You only need to be able to avoid 3 pockets to turn the game positive for the players, assuming they know what those three pockets are. Are you saying that after 10,000 spins as a trained dealer, if you were to set the wheel in motion with a certain force and release the ball from the same spot with a certain force, you have exactly zero control over where the ball ends up? Here's a guy who gets the ball within 10 numbers of 0 three times in a row, the last exactly on zero. It's only three spins but if it's not a complete anomaly, you could make a killing with a confederate if you can target half the wheel and avoid the other half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I6eFIDUYG4
Not sure i'm buying that without further evidence. Has it been verified? Has there been controlled tests over hundreds or thousands of spins to confirm that this dealer (or others) can hit a section like that? It would be fairly easy to record a few spins where you hit the same section and then number, especially with editing.
If it is for real, consider my mind officially blown. And i'll also consider myself a complete failure of a Roulette dealer that i'm not a millionaire by now if this is possible!
To verify that it is possible for a dealer to control or deliberately influence where the ball will land, beyond YouTube videos.
Sorry if i'm repeating myself, but i'm still not buying it. The Jafco videos are almost too good. Spinning the neighbours of 1-5? Really? I think it's either editing, and/or a doctored wheel. The fact that he's also selling a system on his website makes it even less credible.
To state my position clearly; I accept that it's possible to predict where the ball will land, that has been proven. I do not accept or believe that a dealer has any control or deliberate influence on where the ball will land. No proof of that has been provided, apart from some dubious YouTube videos.
If we're going round in circles here, then apologies, and i'll gracefully (and skeptically) bow out of this debate.
I also realise this thread is about Craps DI, and this is de railing it a bit. But after 76 pages of this thread, does it really matter if it's de railed a bit?
You just failed the Turing test. What chatbot software are you using?Quote: DoubleOrNothingQuote: MathExtremistThat was excellent gibberish. Prove to me that you're not a Markov chain sentence generator.
I prefer to stick to the obvious. There are so many things to think and do without the preexisting and obligatory restrictions and "baggage" of casinos and their gamblers once we get beyond the concept of failing lazily with built-in excuses as "casino heat" and confused online gamblers.
Quote: AxelWolfThis isn't common knowledge? I assumed it was because some of the local senior citizens periodically practice this method. They know it's benefits, but they don't do it properly.
I was going to save this secret for my book, but since the secret it now out I can touch on the subject. I guess it needs a name now "Rhythm tapping" sounds good (RI). Eventually it will be called Button control when the Breaking Vegas episode comes out. My new name, the Tappinator. We will probably have to settle on button influence.
Secret tip: If you are playing VP and get dealt A¢¼ Q¢¼ K¢¼ 10¢¼ 4♦ After holding the A¢¼ Q¢¼ K¢¼ 10¢¼, but before you draw, quickly tap hold On and off, slight pause, quickly wack hold On and off the 4d, then quickly draw. Tap tap pause tap tap wack. This can be used for any combination of cards, however its best to stick with one card draws. This way you always know exactly what card to rhythm tap.
It takes years of dedicated practice and testing to learn the correct rhythm for each dealt combination without an instructor. Getting dealt something like AAA is a complex situation. AAA can require up to 16 taps, occasionally just 2. I can teach someone who's dedicated in just a few weekend classes.
Unlike craps, you can gain a VP advantage off the top before using the Rhythm tapping method. The worst RT can make a minimum of $12 an hr anytime 24/7 365.
Some RT's can get thousand in value per hr.
RT classes are generally cost significantly less than DI classes.
It's also far easier to learn. I can teach practically anybody. An RT in training actually has an advantage the very first hand he plays.
The casino perks are far better.
Unlike DI, VP has been a proven Advantage play method for years with many successful players, Some boast of millions.
-----------------------------------------------
Warning:
Actual Results may vary and you are hereby warned that this valuable trick in this post is performed by professionals. Do not attempt to duplicate or recreate the same or similar tricks at actual casinos without proper instruction and supervision, as personal injuries and monetary damages may result. The poster of this post is not responsible for any such injury, criminal or financial damages.
Ya know, the most fun part of this post is how well the disclaimer is spelled. I had to look twice to see if it was really Axel posting.....lol. You must've been on your computer, not your smart phone. :)
Quote: MathExtremistYou just failed the Turing test.
My goodness, what's with all the name-dropping around here? No homegrown talent for household names? Like, "The home of EvenBob".
If I recall, Turing was a gay guy who specialized in secrets, but later went wacky and killed himself after some of his own came to light. Interesting analogy there, ME. (No, I'm not talking to myself yet.)
Quote: MathExtremistWhat chatbot software are you using?
Just feeding some of the stuff (it appeared to me) you wrote back into the computer.
I do remember trying one of those back in the mid-90's and finding it intriguing and a bit scary, how good it was at creating a "dialogue". And they've had 20 more years to refine and improve it.
Quote: beachbumbabsI do remember trying one of those back in the mid-90's and finding it intriguing and a bit scary, how good it was at creating a "dialogue". And they've had 20 more years to refine and improve it.
All I know is that the truth grows taller the further on down the line. Until people forget that they couldn't prove the thing in the first place.
Who knew the Wizard would end up like this.
How many have every really thought anybody what they were reading on some of these DI craps boards?
There is a lot of information on these craps boards, but how much of it is just propaganda to sell classes. Do you guys believe everything on these DI boards?
Someone sent me a quote that the owner of the DI board wrote!
Quote:The owner of the DI board wrote:
Hell, they claim the dice are weighted heavy on one side based on spinning the dice in a set of cheap calipers. Never mind that they don’t know how to load the dice in the calipers properly. They don’t even know that the purpose of the calipers is not to check the dice for weight imbalance. It’s to check the dice to make sure they are perfectly square. And if the dice are NOT perfectly square then it’s highly likely that it is a result of how the dice were handled AFTER they left the manufacturer – not as a result of any flaw in the manufacturing process.
Then you have this quote.
Quote:The owner of the DI board wrote this:
Look, I’m not picking on you here. Just trying to make a point. Last week I visited Midwest Game Supply in Kearny, Mo., the ONLY company manufacturing dice in the United States and one of the major suppliers of dice (including mine) in the business. I toured EVERY step of the manufacturing process – from the extrusion of the blank rods that are eventually cut into dice and milled to a tolerance of less than .003 of an inch to the weighing of the pip filler “paint” to the fact that there are digital micrometers on EVERY workstation along the way where the dice are measured for both size and shape.
Okay, he said that he took a trip to Midwest Game Supply in Kearny, Mo. Then in the above quote he said that the guys that said there were bad dice were checking the dice using cheap calipers to see if they were out of balance. Yet the truth of the matter is they were using a dice caliper from Midwest Game Supply!
So I want everybody to check out this link to Midwest Game Supply and it will show you how propaganda is used to sell their classes! First off the owner of the DI board that also sells his classes is writing that a dice the caliper is not to check the dice for weight imbalance.
In the links below it will show you that a dice caliper is used to check the dice for weight imbalance. That is the only purpose of a dice caliper and what the owner of the DI board is doing he is just spreading propaganda to sell taking a class, because if there were unbalanced dice out there why would you want to take a class on dice control?
http://midwestgamesupply.com/SKUs/Dice_Tools.htm
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10b5qr_unbalanced-dice-part-1-bad-dice-in-las-vegas-casinos-must-see_news
The way that these guy that want to use propaganda to sell their classes get away with what they are doing is very simple, then just ban anybody that doesn't agree with what they are saying. Their DI board become a cult because the members can't ask a smart question about what they are selling without getting nothing but
propaganda!
So here is my question for you guys that go to these DI boards, do you think that you're getting the real story when you read anything on these boards?
Quote: superrickHow DI schools use propaganda to sell their classes
How many have every really thought anybody what they were reading on some of these DI craps boards?
There is a lot of information on these craps boards, but how much of it is just propaganda to sell classes. Do you guys believe everything on these DI boards?
Someone sent me a quote that the owner of the DI board wrote!Quote:The owner of the DI board wrote:
Hell, they claim the dice are weighted heavy on one side based on spinning the dice in a set of cheap calipers. Never mind that they don’t know how to load the dice in the calipers properly. They don’t even know that the purpose of the calipers is not to check the dice for weight imbalance. It’s to check the dice to make sure they are perfectly square. And if the dice are NOT perfectly square then it’s highly likely that it is a result of how the dice were handled AFTER they left the manufacturer – not as a result of any flaw in the manufacturing process.
Then you have this quote.Quote:The owner of the DI board wrote this:
Look, I’m not picking on you here. Just trying to make a point. Last week I visited Midwest Game Supply in Kearny, Mo., the ONLY company manufacturing dice in the United States and one of the major suppliers of dice (including mine) in the business. I toured EVERY step of the manufacturing process – from the extrusion of the blank rods that are eventually cut into dice and milled to a tolerance of less than .003 of an inch to the weighing of the pip filler “paint” to the fact that there are digital micrometers on EVERY workstation along the way where the dice are measured for both size and shape.
Okay, he said that he took a trip to Midwest Game Supply in Kearny, Mo. Then in the above quote he said that the guys that said there were bad dice were checking the dice using cheap calipers to see if they were out of balance. Yet the truth of the matter is they were using a dice caliper from Midwest Game Supply!
So I want everybody to check out this link to Midwest Game Supply and it will show you how propaganda is used to sell their classes! First off the owner of the DI board that also sells his classes is writing that a dice the caliper is not to check the dice for weight imbalance.
In the links below it will show you that a dice caliper is used to check the dice for weight imbalance. That is the only purpose of a dice caliper and what the owner of the DI board is doing he is just spreading propaganda to sell taking a class, because if there were unbalanced dice out there why would you want to take a class on dice control?
http://midwestgamesupply.com/SKUs/Dice_Tools.htm
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10b5qr_unbalanced-dice-part-1-bad-dice-in-las-vegas-casinos-must-see_news
The way that these guy that want to use propaganda to sell their classes get away with what they are doing is very simple, then just ban anybody that doesn't agree with what they are saying. Their DI board become a cult because the members can't ask a smart question about what they are selling without getting nothing but
propaganda!
So here is my question for you guys that go to these DI boards, do you think that you're getting the real story when you read anything on these boards?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
the real question on here is why after all the years that the game of craps has been
played, we are still talking about the math of the game, when every person with
any knowledge of the game attests that the game can not be beaten from a
math standpoint.
That being the case there is little reason for a person like Math to waste any of his time
doing or talking about something that is not possible.
Your throw and sets may not work for everyone one, they may not even work for
you many times, but they are, have been and will always be the only chance you
have to affect the house advantage.
One would wonder why people like math feel some one like me poses such a threat to the
ego of those that cant believe in anything other than the math which is proven a bad partner.
All the crap I and others take for our efforts is veiled in the constant cry of you have not shown enough
data, you have not shown the right data, you get tired after 40 rolls ( now that was a good one
by the way, I am heading to Colorado in 3 weeks to go elk hunting with a bow and I cant stand
for 40 rolls) , and what must be the best of all I am doing this to sell something....
The truth is we play each week and Math and others have no idea how we do, they just suggest
we are not winning for some reason.... I guess it makes them feel better.
Regardless of how anyone looks at the data, if you cant influence the dice, the math only wont make
you a winner, and I admit the effort it takes is not for people like Math and others that want instant
gratification... but for many it is fun and worth the effort.
Does anyone actually believe if some one did prove openly they could beat the game that it would be
the end of the nonsense.... of course not... then people like Math would start harping about the fact
that well that was just on one table... what about al the rest......laughing
No you don't work on your throw or sets to satisfy people like Math and others, it is to see what you
can do....to me nothing else matters.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitter
Does anyone actually believe if some one did prove openly they could beat the game that it would be
the end of the nonsense....
dicesetter
Of course it would. The topic would no longer be IF anyone can influence the roll of dice enough to overcome the house edge. The topic would be how many can do it.
But you can't answer the second question when not one person in the history of Craps has shown that the first question is possible.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Of course it would. The topic would no longer be IF anyone can influence the roll of dice enough to overcome the house edge. The topic would be how many can do it.
But you can't answer the second question when not one person in the history of Craps has shown that the first question is possible.
ZCore13
Of course, Frank S. says there's proof...
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_187_dice.shtml
Quote: dicesitterDoubleornothing
the real question on here is why after all the years that the game of craps has been
played, we are still talking about the math of the game, when every person with
any knowledge of the game attests that the game can not be beaten from a
math standpoint.
That being the case there is little reason for a person like Math to waste any of his time
doing or talking about something that is not possible.
Your throw and sets may not work for everyone one, they may not even work for
you many times, but they are, have been and will always be the only chance you
have to affect the house advantage.
One would wonder why people like math feel some one like me poses such a threat to the
ego of those that cant believe in anything other than the math which is proven a bad partner.
All the crap I and others take for our efforts is veiled in the constant cry of you have not shown enough
data, you have not shown the right data, you get tired after 40 rolls ( now that was a good one
by the way, I am heading to Colorado in 3 weeks to go elk hunting with a bow and I cant stand
for 40 rolls) , and what must be the best of all I am doing this to sell something....
The truth is we play each week and Math and others have no idea how we do, they just suggest
we are not winning for some reason.... I guess it makes them feel better.
Regardless of how anyone looks at the data, if you cant influence the dice, the math only wont make
you a winner, and I admit the effort it takes is not for people like Math and others that want instant
gratification... but for many it is fun and worth the effort.
Does anyone actually believe if some one did prove openly they could beat the game that it would be
the end of the nonsense.... of course not... then people like Math would start harping about the fact
that well that was just on one table... what about al the rest......laughing
No you don't work on your throw or sets to satisfy people like Math and others, it is to see what you
can do....to me nothing else matters.
dicesetter
Ya, well, it's the game of life/death. You can't write it in an equation, or assign probabilities to it for risk/insurance purposes reclined in some ivory tower. Such a "forum" doesn't wax and wane while its various aspects are foolishly certified and decertified to suit specific strengths and weaknesses respectfully.
Expect the unexpected. It's not enough, nay, wrong to say that because this math leads to this conclusion, whichever, there can be no others. New ideas lead to different conclusions, and even to different fields of math.
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. But, those who can do neither, write long-winded treatises. And, those who can do both, invent. The latter requires both understanding and knowledge in equal amounts. When a problem's solution won't let you off with just sledgehammer math, or just tedious fiddling. Especially, when it's its knowledge, itself, which must be understood.
In other words, when we limit ourselves to math we limit ourselves to the limitations of math. In particular, our own mathematical limitations. Similarly, a physics which doesn't already speak of the end of physics all along can have no end. The persons who need to rethink such intractable problems aren't the physicists.
Quote: MathExtremistSeriously, what chatbot software are you using? Was it a Loebner Prize winner?
If it's not human, is it still a violation if we insult it?
I run a test sometimes on automated calls to my home phone. One time I was calling what I thought was a robot all kinds of names until the guy on the other end said, "I'm not a robot", hilarious. I still did not want to buy anything from it.
For all I know, AI may have rights now and probably some support group? But maybe only if it's incorporated.
Quote: MathExtremistSeriously, what chatbot software are you using? Was it a Loebner Prize winner?
It's far better to not understand something, and be left to ponder it, then to "understand" cool gibberish, and waste your life or the forum's life (whichever comes first) on it.
Nothing about AP gambling math in practice has been proved out. It doesn't have even real theoretical value. It's pointless anymore to ask for proof of earnings, etc, because no one will attempt serious answers. "So many times I win, so many times I lose," big deal. Like hitting yourself over the head randomly for the drunken parents who still house you.
I don't know of any theories named ME's theory of so and so. Do you? Sometimes I wonder that pasting and copying old probability math to answer things not ask doesn't get really boring.
Quote: DoubleOrNothingIt's far better to not understand something, and be left to ponder it, then to "understand" cool gibberish, and waste your life or the forum's life (whichever comes first) on it.
Nothing about AP gambling math in practice has been proved out.
You should take your own advice. That you believe casino advantage play isn't provably successful in practice tells me you haven't actually been paying attention for, oh, fifty years or so. There are games in casinos *right now* that yield player advantages without cheating and there have been for decades. That won't change just because you don't believe it.
It seems likely that you personally aren't playing with a mathematical advantage, but that certainly doesn't mean nobody is.
You should go back to using the chatbot. The software-generated language may have been obtuse but at least it wasn't flat-out wrong.
* Unbalanced die favor one die number or outcomes of more 7s which are mostly: 1,2,5, and 6 due to the combination of gravity and centrifical force.
* The 7 Outs heavily favor the casinos bottom line by winning more money from both the do players and don't players.
My own take away strategy using this info would be making the 'no 4 bet' or laying all the box numbers on the comeout. (Assming the unbalance does not
favor the 3 or 4.) Also, making Patrick's ricochet bet, or some form of the horn or whirl bet.
Is that anything of further value than what I have cited from pages 43 - 78? I admit to being confused because I though someone had said a good bet would be to 'buy the 4' which contradicts my idea of laying the 4.
Apart from the above, I'd like to hear your thoughts or comments.
Thank you!
Fwiw, I hope the following is a much improved version of my question. Same content, but perhaps a bit clearer. Cheers
=====================================================
So, what is the practical take away information from the Craps Smackdown: Eagleeye2 vs Random Roller?
If RR is correct, then there is no take away? If EE is correct, then one needs to be able to determine IF the dice are unbalanced and either don't play; or devise a betting strategy to take advantage of the imbalance. Any simple visualization or optics, to make a determination? What about the ritual one sees some shooters do called 'training' or teaching the dice?
Correct my thinking. Unbalanced die favor one die number appearing over another; or outcomes of more 7s. Those one die numbers are mostly: 1,2,5, and 6 due to the combination of gravity and centrifical force. The 7 Outs heavily favor the casinos bottom line by winning more money from both the do players and don't players.
My own take away strategy using this info would be making the 'no 4 bet' or laying all the box numbers on the comeout. (Assming the unbalance does not favor the 3 or 4. Favoring the 3 or 4 numbers for the 7 out would seem to favor more 6s or 8s?)
Another possible strategy might be to follow Patrick's ricochet bet. Or some Horn or Whirl bet methodology.
Thoughts or comments?
.
Thank you!
If the casino were to use unbalanced dice, they would just be offering an edge to someone since you can bet any conceivable combination if there was an edge. They're not going to do that. They win enough with the independent house edge on every bet.
If dice setting worked, they would not allow the players to touch the dice. They would be thrown mechanically or by the house from a cup or something. That they don't should mean something significant to you.
Quote: CalderThis board needs a sarcasm font.
Yep. Failing that, some use /Sarcasm to good effect.
Quote: CalderThis board needs a sarcasm font.
Flew over his head.
By his other posts, I knew it would.
Now I did it. Made it 79 pages of garbage.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/540/686/696.gif
Quote: MathExtremistIf the dice are biased, just play follow-the-last on pass/don't pass.
The same way of thinking could apply to playing at a table where a dice setter is plying his/her craft: no harm in betting the same way the shooter is, and if he/she has an advantage, you should do OK.
Of course, I also set snares to try and capture the Easter Bunny.
Before ANYONE runs afoul of the law, please consider that even DISCUSSING things that relate to cheating can, in and of itself, be against the law.
A couple arrests happening for casino fraud across the country. Source
