Strong Proven bet for the Dark Side Players... One of the BEST I've Seen.

I bought it years ago from a Guy Named Dave Lessnau. I use to play it at Sams Town back in the day bc of the 100 times odds.

ITS CALLED "GREEN"

All WINS are made on the Lay of the point, not the DP. So 7,11,2.3 are pushes and washes out and 1 in 36 a twelve will roll and be a loss on the PL and a push of DP.

Here are the Rules. Using a $25 unit.
Table selection is HUGE. Don't go play this on a table where racks are FULL and people high giving and chest bumping. Be smart, look at racks of amount of chips. small racks and no noise equals perfect table to play this.

1) buy in for 20 units units./$500 for a $25 unit win
2) Make a doey /dont of minimum to get you a $25 Win. Hopefully a 3-4-5 odds or better house. so maybe $5/5 or $10/$10
3) once point is established, make a lay bet to Win $25. (Lay $30 on 6/8) (Lay $45 on 5/9) and (Lay $50 on 4/10)
4) If the bet wins, repeat Level 1 part of bet until you are up 5u of $25 or $125.
5) If the first part (Lev 1) lay bet loses to a point being made, Make a Lay on very next point to win 2u/$50. (Lay $60 on 6/8)(Lay $75 on 5/9) and (Lay $100 on 4/10).
6) If you lose Lev 1 but Win L2, you continue back at Lev 1 for next shooter.
7) If you lose 2nd Lay of point being made to same shooter, you DO NOT go any further with this shooter. You stop and wait for the 7 out and restart Lev 1 next shooter.
8) Look to collect 5-10u per table and get off the table before someone shows up and hits the 4-10 as points and converts them.
9) at times depending on house odds, you might have to raise the Lev 2 Doey/Dont flat part to cover potential Lay bet.
10). If you encounter (2) double Lev 1 and Lev 2 losses, stop and wait for 2 wins before restarting or color up and switch tables.

Pro's:
Very successful and beat 72 hrs at the Craps table. I don't know of many systems that have beaten the book in testing.
Strong versus a table thats only strong do side PL wins are basically 7,11 etc...
Strong versus 1 point per shooter made.
Strong versus COLD tables where no one is Passing duh!!!
By playing Doey/DOnt you are shaving the house edge down and using free odds to get your lay bet up as opposed to just making a Lay bet after the point is already established.
No More paying $5 for a lay bet to Win $100.
If at any point you feel the shooter is gonna make this point just swing you lay bet odds over to taking odds. Ive done this a handful of times playing this.

Con's:
Weak for Tables of repeating points of 2 or more.
At some point the tables will turn and even the coldest tables heat up... so make your win goal and bail.. Don't be Greedy.
Worse case senario is BTB 4/10's as points that shooter converts, as you are laying 2:1

If you have 72 hrs or another system tester book, just roll 2 dice and thats your starting page number and test a session of 1-2 hrs...

GL and Hope this makes you al some $$$

VDC.

So Martingale with the extra added bonus of trying to figure out shooter strength?

Do you have any real time data of your trips to the casino using this system? How long have you been playing it if I may ask?

Quote: Tomspur

So Martingale with the extra added bonus of trying to figure out shooter strength?

Do you have any real time data of your trips to the casino using this system? How long have you been playing it if I may ask?

Off and on for about 10 yrs now... doesn't matter shooter strengths. Ive played with some of the best shooters in Vegas.... when its not meant to be it isn't going to be...play the trend at the table. IF its not passing don't fight it... If your PL getting smoked, then switch to this GREEN....

Forget what I've done or how Long I've Played it.. Do your DD and get a craps book or real craps roll data... and you will see...

Ive read a lot of people losing to a Sh*tLoad of C.O 7's and 11's when playing DARK.... Well here is your answer... thank me later...

GL TOMSPUR

I know for as fact this system does work. Ace of spades paid his tuition in law school with this system.

Quote: Buzzard

I know for as fact this system does work. Ace of spades paid his tuition in law school with this system.

I think you're mistaken.

Be careful. Implying that ace of spades is,not a winner can lead to a suspension.

Quote: VegasDiceController

I bought it years ago

and giving it away for free now. What a guy!

Quote:

small racks and no noise equals perfect table

for the dark side this is what you want, I'll give you that

time to quit my day job ...

such a shame to see this from a 3 year member of the site- systems dont work- sigh
any chance his account got highjacked?

Wow too bad about Sam's town closing soon to dice controllers, I really liked billy bobs.

Quote: strictlyAP

such a shame to see this from a 3 year member of the site- systems dont work- sigh
any chance his account got highjacked?

Well Mr Strictly Advantage Play.... Whats your Advantage Play.?

I was just trying to give some of the Don't Players getting their a**es handed to them a Method of Play that has won for me and actually beat 72 hrs pretty good.

Some Systems Work, Its the People who Fail, Its that Simple.

HAve a good Day.

" If at any point you feel the shooter is gonna make this point just swing you lay bet odds over to taking odds."


" Be smart, look at racks of amount of chips. small racks and no noise equals perfect table to play this. "


Both these statements are as important as the box man's shoe size.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Big racks and no noise equals the perfect woman!

Mickey says she should also own a liquor store.

Quote: Buzzard

" If at any point you feel the shooter is gonna make this point just swing you lay bet odds over to taking odds."


" Be smart, look at racks of amount of chips. small racks and no noise equals perfect table to play this. "


Both these statements are as important as the box man's shoe size.

The method is not designed for that but i felt i would inject that comment bc that has happened to me where i felt the table changing and you could just feel a positive turn and sure enough it was. But even if you stuck to the original rules i outlined, You would only lose 2 bets to a hot shooter who makes 6 points and 10 PL winners...

So BUZ you feel table selection is worthless than? from statement above its as important as boxes man shoe size. Wow, ...

Seems I'm wasting my 30 yrs of craps play indulging in forums topics that turn into a 15 rounder. I could be doing something more productive with my time.

Like loading my live sessions in my computer...thats something I'm falling behind on....

Well, I must ask, are you related to John Patrick ? Do you read the auras of the players at the table ?

Just exactly how does the number of chips in the rack affect the outcome of the dice ?

Do you know something about kinetic energy that I am missing ?

Quote: Buzzard

Well, I must ask, are you related to John Patrick ? Do you read the auras of the players at the table ?

Just exactly how does the number of chips in the rack affect the outcome of the dice ?

Do you know something about kinetic energy that I am missing ?

The John Patrick line is thrown out way too much...

I understand exactly what he's trying to say...

When playing the DP, walking up to the table with the smiles and rows of chips is like a infantry squad rolling by blown up hummers on the road... Math is law... But sometimes you have to Bend it and break it.. That's how I roll!!!

Intuition...

Quote: TheWolf713

That's how I roll!!!

Intuition...

This is what keeps the casinos open. The casino use that "math that rules." that should tell you something. Intuition is meaningless when it comes to craps.

I guess you take calculated restroom breaks as well…… just kidding

I have question for my Math guys…I honestly would like to Why do you play craps?

With Negative EV, bound to lose, smartest guys at the table, and yet you still play… Why? What drives you?

deleted

Quote: TheWolf713

I have question for my Math guys…I honestly would like to Why do you play craps?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/07/keynes_in_the_long_run_we_are_all_dead.html

Quote: SlateArticle

To extend the metaphor, Keynes’ point wasn’t that the long-term is unimportant—it’s crucial that a ship eventually arrive at the correct port. But in the middle of the storm an expert sailor needs to be able to say something useful about how to weather what’s actually happening. Economics will not be a useful or interesting discipline if all it can say about exchange rates is that eventually things will work themselves out. In the short run, it makes quite a bit of difference what happens to exchange rates: It can make the difference between prosperity and recession.

If your analysis of craps is what happens in the long run, you're probably not betting enough money to care about the short run.

You can, generally, bet more money in craps without paying more in order to do so. At least until you max out 20x odds at the moment.

Most people can afford to get as much of a free (extra) gamble as they are willing to handle and even more wuss out before getting close.

Not everybody wants to be an AP. And for those who don't care to be, craps is an easy way to get close to zero edge on a percentage basis with very little knowledge. That's why it's a favorable game. It isn't just for arrogant AP's who look down on other people who are not AP's. It is a game for all level of players, and is only expensive for the truly degenerate thrill-seeking folks who just don't care at all about edges or who bet way beyond their tolerance for losses.

Quote: Buzzard

" If at any point you feel the shooter is gonna make this point just swing you lay bet odds over to taking odds."


" Be smart, look at racks of amount of chips. small racks and no noise equals perfect table to play this. "


Both these statements are as important as the box man's shoe size.

well, the shoe size of the box man might be more important in predicting how the future lies; if his shoes don't fit he might be in a bad mood and tell a dealer to screw you over on something.

on the other hand, such a table is good for the darksider. Quiet probably means just a few gamblers, and the small-rackers will be leaving soon most of the time, making a quiet table even quieter. It all bodes well for playing darkside without upsetting anybody, and if you enjoy esprit de table* with other right-siders, you ain't getting that anyway.

Quote:

If your analysis of craps is what happens in the long run, you're probably not betting enough money to care about the short run.

You can, generally, bet more money in craps without paying more in order to do so. At least until you max out 20x odds at the moment.

Most people can afford to get as much of a free (extra) gamble as they are willing to handle and even more wuss out before getting close.

Not everybody wants to be an AP. And for those who don't care to be, craps is an easy way to get close to zero edge on a percentage basis with very little knowledge. That's why it's a favorable game. It isn't just for arrogant AP's who look down on other people who are not AP's. It is a game for all level of players, and is only expensive for the truly degenerate thrill-seeking folks who just don't care at all about edges or who bet way beyond their tolerance for losses.

I think were wasting our time Aaron.... these are Math Guys here for the most part.... not everyday/weekly Craps players like us. They'll toss their Neg Exp point all night and they base all info off Long Term and Not the short term as you said.

So here is a question for you Math Guys than.

What are the ODDS for 1 shooter to roll a 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 with out throwing a 7 ?.... make that 3 twelve's? Put your answer here....________________

Next Question: What are are odds throwing 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 (3 times).... than throwing same thing again in same roll 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 (3 times)?
Yes the twelves was throw 6 times in this hypothetical question? Since your the math gurus, id like a numerical answer if all possible.

TY for taking the time to figure this out.... id like to see how many are correct....

thewolf713



That is easy, the math of the game does not dictate the results.


If all you ever did was rely on the math, no one would do anything,..... the pure math says that if there are
50 boats in a fishing tournament you should win one out of 50 events..... the math says that in colorado there
is a 25% chance you will get an elk with bow, and yet some of us get one most years, the math says
if there are 10 guys at a poker table, you should get hands good enough to win one out of 10 hands.

All this is pure folly, all of us have the ability to alter the outcomes of most of the things we do
with our preparation and ability to control the level of our participation...

If a person goes to the table and bets $1000 on the dont pass, and some guy hits 15 pass winners
and has a 50 roll, is the loss of thousands because of the math, or stupidity?????

dicesetter

Quote: TheWolf713

I have question for my Math guys…I honestly would like to Why do you play craps?

With Negative EV, bound to lose, smartest guys at the table, and yet you still play… Why? What drives you?

That is one of my favorite questions to ask any math guy, funny that I never get a response to that question, I want to know just how often do they play, is it once a year, how about two times year? Do they play craps on WinCraps or in a real casino?

I always want to ask the guy standing next to me, that is telling everybody on the table just how stupid the guy is that is making those filed bets if he is a math guy. The funny part is when he walks away a loser and that stupid guy making those field bets walked away a winner, because everybody on the table was throwing nothing but field numbers, and there were no 5's, 6's, and 8's!

The math of the game tells you that over the long run of 10,000 rolls of the dice, you will come out a loser. What it does not tell you, is you have deviation , and if you're not going to stand there for 10,000 rolls the dice that math of the game could be wrong!

Nobody will play for 10,000 rolls of the dice so anything can and will happen in the short time their are at a table! The guy making those stupid field bets could come out a winner! The know it all math guy could be the big loser for the day! When it comes to craps nothing is set in stone, so the best bet on the table going by the math of the game could be the worst ones while your playing!

10000 divided by 100(average # of rolls per game), divided by 4(average number of plays per trip) equals 25 trips or 6 month of play. In 6 month you'll go broke, 100% guarantee.

Quote: Dicenor33

10000 divided by 100(average # of rolls per game), divided by 4(average number of plays per trip) equals 25 trips or 6 month of play. In 6 month you'll go broke, 100% guarantee.

No, in 6 months, you will be guaranteed to lose if you flat bet any single bet on the felt without taking free odds.

In 6 months, just doing $5 pass line and 345x odds -- FLAT betting, not only will you not be certain to go broke, but you could actually be ahead.

And that's all from just math.

All of the math guys generally think in terms of flat betting. The Wizard, I believe, generally flat-bets. AP's generally flat bet on bets where they have an advantage, and min-bet bets where they are required to bet until they have an advantage.

But when you're ACTUALLY gambling (instead of doing AP play), flat betting is what the casino wants, not what the player wants. Generally, whoever has the edge wants to flat bet and hang in there!

If you want to get lucky, you might min bet for a while then make a huge bold play 100x your previous bets and hope to get lucky. No advantage, just luck.

Nobody studies the "math" of random betting strategies or strategies based on hunches because you can't pin down what motivates the player to make a particular bet.

The most fun way to play the game is, in general, a method of play that people who think almost exclusively about the math of the game cannot relate to because, in general, the brains of these two folks are just different. Many math folks from this forum won't bet a high house edge bet out of principle alone, no matter what they think might happen next.

The game was designed to provide entertainment. Not to help math guys flat-bet the pass line with max odds and get a good deal losing as slowly as possible for a lifetime of flat betting the line with max odds. IE: the game isn't designed for math folks. It's designed for gamblers who want to have fun and have a good chance to win money by getting lucky.

A simpler method:

2 unit DP

1 unit DC

2 unit DC

The earlier bet(s) act(s) as a hedge when establishing the subsequent bet(s).

No magic here, no overcoming the house edge, just another way to play, another arrow for the quiver.

Quote: dicesitter

thewolf713



That is easy, the math of the game does not dictate the results.


If all you ever did was rely on the math, no one would do anything,..... the pure math says that if there are
50 boats in a fishing tournament you should win one out of 50 events..... the math says that in colorado there
is a 25% chance you will get an elk with bow, and yet some of us get one most years, the math says
if there are 10 guys at a poker table, you should get hands good enough to win one out of 10 hands.

All this is pure folly, all of us have the ability to alter the outcomes of most of the things we do
with our preparation and ability to control the level of our participation...

If a person goes to the table and bets $1000 on the dont pass, and some guy hits 15 pass winners
and has a 50 roll, is the loss of thousands because of the math, or stupidity?????

dicesetter

All the things mentioned in your second paragraph have have to do with skill.

Quote: dicesitter

.

If a person goes to the table and bets $1000 on the dont pass, and some guy hits 15 pass winners
and has a 50 roll, is the loss of thousands because of the math, or stupidity?????

dicesetter

Stupidity for playing in the first place. Its easy to think they guy is dumb for not going with the trend, after the fact.

So with all that said…..

I like VDC's little method….

I like to think of "The math" like a Spoon with the Oil in it.
And the Craps game is the Marvelous Alaskan Mountain range in that we are walking around in..

Along the trail there are some pretty awesome things to see… Some may even require dropping the spoon.
What's more important, the spoon or experience..

You believe your math will eventually be right… I believe my intuition will eventually be right… What's the difference?

Off-topic, Has anyone seen the EDGE of TOMORROW??? Great movie by the way.

Quote: TheWolf713

You believe your math will eventually be right… I believe my intuition will eventually be right… What's the difference?
.

If your intuition is along the lines of eventually you will lose there is no difference because that's what the math dictates. Intuition is the same as guessing when it comes to gambling.

Quote: VegasDiceController

I think were wasting our time Aaron.... these are Math Guys here for the most part.... not everyday/weekly Craps players like us. They'll toss their Neg Exp point all night and they base all info off Long Term and Not the short term as you said.

So here is a question for you Math Guys than.

What are the ODDS for 1 shooter to roll a 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 with out throwing a 7 ?.... make that 3 twelve's? Put your answer here....________________

Next Question: What are are odds throwing 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 (3 times).... than throwing same thing again in same roll 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,and 12 (3 times)?
Yes the twelves was throw 6 times in this hypothetical question? Since your the math gurus, id like a numerical answer if all possible.

TY for taking the time to figure this out.... id like to see how many are correct....

I may interpret some of the negative statements made from some posters about the possibility of anyone having a superior game or being better apt at steering their luck, but it seems to me although those comments are repeated time and again they mostly don't come from what I would call math people. The real mathies just tell it like it is and impress the heck out of me how they can run the numbers so well and fast. Very impressive indeed. I don't think ME, or 7craps or that good looking Sallie ever got in on the down comments the numbers just are what they are.

What I seem to see is others that just can't resist a beatdown on craps players and usually arn't craps players. They are some other kind of players or not. Does someone really think that you or some other enthusiasts hasn't heard that craps is a negative expectaion game? I don't think so. I think they are stroking their own egos with nothing positive to say about anything.

I hope you don't leave because of the negative non comraderie. Good luck out there.

Just once I would like to see a dice thread that says this is how I lose my money. Try it, you might like it.

I read your system until you said "make a doey/don't" and got to stop reading there, thanks for saving me the time.

Quote: AxelWolf

If your intuition is along the lines of eventually you will lose there is no difference because that's what the math dictates. Intuition is the same as guessing when it comes to gambling.

And the Math is nothing more…. "I have made a calculated guess.. I feel confident in my guess because I've backed it with data.…."

Data, Data, Data…..
We're running the same race…. You have calculated the marathon, and know all the turns… While my only thought is "There's no one in this race that's going to outrun me".

Who's right?? Whoever is at the finish line first… You might play 8 hours, 3 sessions with your proper bets… I might play 20 mins, and beat the valet back to the window before he hangs the keys of my truck on the wall…

My intuition is more on the lines of this…
You're looking at matter, Im looking at Higgs Boson…

Wait a second, I just emptied out my 401K so I could go along with this system. I'm hoping to get rich.

Quote: guitarmandp

Wait a second, I just emptied out my 401K so I could go along with this system. I'm hoping to get rich.

Hoping?? Expecting!!

Quote: Buzzard

" If at any point you feel the shooter is gonna make this point just swing you lay bet odds over to taking odds."


" Be smart, look at racks of amount of chips. small racks and no noise equals perfect table to play this. "


Both these statements are as important as the box man's shoe size.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Big racks and no noise equals the perfect woman!

OMG. It has been so long since someone on this board made me laugh out loud. Well played, gents. Bonus points for the liquor store comment next post, but IBYA had me at hello.

Quote: TheWolf713

And the Math is nothing more…. "I have made a calculated guess.. I feel confident in my guess because I've backed it with data.…."

Data, Data, Data…..
We're running the same race…. You have calculated the marathon, and know all the turns… While my only thought is "There's no one in this race that's going to outrun me".

Who's right?? Whoever is at the finish line first… You might play 8 hours, 3 sessions with your proper bets… I might play 20 mins, and beat the valet back to the window before he hangs the keys of my truck on the wall…

My intuition is more on the lines of this…
You're looking at matter, Im looking at Higgs Boson…

keep looking because until it produces a money machine that's not going to help. NO one can step forward and show the world they can beat craps legitimately.

You can play one, 8 hr session or twenty four, 20 min sessions, it does not matter, they all add up to the exact same outcome. Math does not magically start over with a new session or day. How would you know if your intuition is working? Lets say your intuition tell you to stop playing. Now you get in your car and leave how do you know what would have happened if you stayed and played? You could have went on the biggest run of your life had you stayed.

The only thing you are doing by breaking up your sessions into shorter ones, is spending more money on gas and tipping the valet.

What ever floats your boat, play how you like, if its fun for you to imagine what you are doing helps, and it makes you happy, by all means go for it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it really works any different or that you have an advantage.

Quote: ahiromu

I read your system until you said "make a doey/don't" and got to stop reading there, thanks for saving me the time.

LMAO... Its your choice Ahiromu... You can let the point of 4,5,6,8,9,or 10 come out and pay the house VIG of $1 for every $20 you make or you can do the Doey/Dont and use that Flat bet now to CREATE a free LAY bet on the same number 4.5.6.8.9.or 10. Thats all its there for is to create a FREE LAY..... But you probably pay for your Lays right? (PUN Intended) lmao

Quote: TheWolf713

Who's right?? Whoever is at the finish line first… You might play 8 hours, 3 sessions with your proper bets… I might play 20 mins, and beat the valet back to the window before he hangs the keys of my truck on the wall…

Exactly... Whoever is at the finish line first.... Who cares how we get there right.. We all know the MATH data will surface in the LOngrun, but we (us daily/weekly) guys believe in the short term fluctuations of the game and we try and exploit it. I personally play how the table is Trending at the time... If its Do side play than I'm getting odds on my bets... if it dictates Dont play then playing DONT side and giving up more $$$ to Win less usually if its not a flat bet...

Im the kind of player that if I notice a number gone, Say the 6 or 8 for this matter....GOne to me is 20-24 rolls... Ill lay it for $60 to win $50. Once I see a C.O7 or 7out, Ill parlay that risk and Win and bet next bet is $120 to win $100. this is the bet i wanna WIN... When it does, I now have won $49 and $95 net for a $144. It just became a FREE bet for me now and i repeat step 2. If i win the 3rd Leg of this LAY, i now advance UP and play another 3 tier Lay but my starting point is the middle level of the one i just came from so its $120/$100. Then the next is $240/200, then i repeat that. then advance up to a new 3 tier Lay again. etc etc... when do i stop? After i see (2) eights within 5 rolls of each other... hopefully when i do have 2 eight they are more than 5 rolls.

Now how many 7's of you think one should have with 108 rolls? exactly a lot.... my point is, I collected laying the eight at my base bet of a $50 win on a table and kept using my 3 tier progression bc i seen a table trend on a NO 8 or NO 6.... Where I exploit it, you MATH guys are placing that same 6 or 8 bc the math says it should hit every 7.2 rolls and we have only had 3 eights in 108 rolls...

I would be the type to pull down $1000 during this 1-1.5hr session betting they short term fluctuation of the game, where you would be getting you ass handed to you betting the 6 or 8 or whatever # was gone bc you play the number game where I play the table trend at the time.... hence the term TRENDSETTERCRAPS

did i mention when the 8 returned and i eventually loss my lay, that i had a 50% chance of not losing it a second time if it appeared w/in 5 rolls of first 8 appearance? so theres a chance i only give back 1 loss but guess what, when it returns you are betting it scared bc you got your ass handed to you by playing it over last hour or so...and are not sure if its gonna roll anymore and start doubting all this math stuff, bc its suppose to hit once every 7.2 rolls bc the big books says so.... so you bet it lightly mainly bc your buy in is deflated, where i come in knowing now the MATH of the game will surface and when the dust settles late tonight that this eight will catch up and BALANCE back out the MATH as we get closure to the LONGTERM eventuality of numbers balancing to true mathematics... so i play the 8 now knowing its the best # to be on bc now it was so far behind it has to balance and most times it does... not always but most times it will balance back while you are still at the table...

Boom, its the point and next roll point winner...co 7, co 11 co 8 again.. 1 roll later a 8 winner and so on... in fact i even play those shitty house edge bets you guys stay away from bc of the MATH.... Where I will be hopping a 3 way 8 or $6 or $15, and collecting 31:1 on a hopping Hard 8. ( yes i realize it big house edge), but bc of the table trending and balancing i put MY MATH on hold and bet this high HE and collect BIGTIME. These are the short term fluctuations i play.

But in the LONGTERM the math of the game will be there over 30,000 rolls of the dice. Im only concerned of the 144-180 rolls of that 30,000.

Cant tell you how many times i watched you math POKER GUYS who play EV games stroll over to the craps table and Lose your ass. I played with many BIGS at RIO during WSOP tournaments.

The best of the best in the Poker room, but BLOW on the Craps table unless they get lucky bc they play the Math of the game not the Table Trend during that hr session.

PEACE

deleted

If all you do at craps is make the most advantageous bets, then the game isn't any fun. You're sitting there grinding out pass or don't pass with odds, while everyone else is whooping it up on a hot shooter. They're getting paid on place/buy bets and the other oddball stuff, you're waiting for the point to hit (or 7out).

Sure, they're losing more when they lose. But if you were looking for the best bet you would have walked past the casino.

What I'm saying is, if you want to pry yourself away from pass/odds, this way of placing your bets is as good as any other random way you might consider, given that the odds on the table are invariant. It looks hellaciously complicated to me; I'd probably just guess numbers to bet on rather than whatever juju is wrapped up in those calculations, but the results would be mathematically the same, depending on whether the guesses or system matched future outcomes. No big deal, y'know?

Quote: Mosca

Sure, they're losing more when they lose.

People that don't care about math, and I hate to be technical, but they win less when they win actually.

Unlike slots, all losing bets on craps lose the entire amount, although there are plenty of pushes.

Axelwolf



All the activities i mentioned are much more than skill, much more. It comes dome to decisions,
every guy in a tournament can fish, they can shoot, they can play poker, the decisions and
preparation is what makes the difference.

What you are suggesting in craps is that you can take a guy that has worked on his shot for years,
undertstands the game, the tables he is playing on, etc.... and then you can take a guy that is
drunk when he plays and they can play 25 sessions at the table with the same starting bank roll
and after every 25 game session they will both have the same amount of money!!!!!


I wonder if that is what you are trying to tell us.

dicesetter

It's funny none of these math genius ever answered the original question.

So here it is again. I did this about 6-8 wks ago at an All Tall Small table. If I have the original exact roll data ill post it but this is what I know I did bc I got paid twice on it and almost a 3rd time...

I rolled all the number thru twice. 2,3,4,5,6 , 8, 9,10,11 and then three 12's. then before any 7 even thrown did it a second time, 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10.11 and 3 more 12's, then got paid $1225 again, then while attempting to do it a 3rd time, I got almost half way thru. Needed 2#'s each side (small and tall) before the 7 eventually hit.

So what are the odds to hit all that twice while hitting the 12 six times during this single hand roll ?

Thx for taking the time to figure out. It fries my brain trying to do the Math.

Ill let experts give it a whirl

VDC

A math boy and a Patrick player are at a craps table and get into a heated discussion.

It is agreed to resolve the disagreement by coin flip.

Who wins?

The math boy, every time, as the other fellow insists he must watch the coin flip for awhile before betting "the trend."

Quote: VegasDiceController

Cant tell you how many times i watched you math POKER GUYS who play EV games stroll over to the craps table and Lose your ass. I played with many BIGS at RIO during WSOP tournaments.

The best of the best in the Poker room, but BLOW on the Craps table unless they get lucky bc they play the Math of the game not the Table Trend during that hr session.

PEACE

One of the worst times to play craps at the Rio is when the WSOP tournament is in town, These guys turn a decent table into a nightmare,.. they may know how to play poker, but they don't know how to play craps.

Quote: VegasDiceController

But in the LONGTERM the math of the game will be there over 30,000 rolls of the dice. Im only concerned of the 144-180 rolls of that 30,000.

No one is going to be there for even 10,000 rolls of the dice, and most will only be there till their little bank roll is lost, it could be only one of the dice or just a few if they put up one large bet hoping that they get lucky!

Hey listen. I know everyone means well here and all. The fact that long term trends don't mean much to most folks is what makes gambling efficacious.

Harrah's hasn't figured this out yet, but when almost everyone loses, there are no stories like those we're reading here that go something like, "but sometimes you win."

The logical extension is, "when you do get lucky enough to win, that's awesome."

When the payback percentage on an IGT slot, such as those at the world famous "Caesar's Palace" for example, are set to 86% payback, you don't have these discussions (as often) about how sometimes you win and/or how that playing the game makes sense for some of the people who are lucky enough to win.

There is not a math person anywhere that would tell you that nobody is lucky enough to be a lifetime winner in craps.

There are MANY lifetime winners at craps.

And if there's were not, in my opinion, the game would suck.

Most games that have lifetime winners are the result of people who are only in Vegas for a few days of their life or otherwise the biggest payout is so huge, they get hold of reason when faced with "do I spend it or gamble that money too?"