Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
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March 29th, 2014 at 12:16:49 PM permalink
As many of you know, I help run a charity game. We own the table so we had a custom layout made for it with the charity's logo on it. it really looks professional. Since it is was just for us, the prop bets payouts are shaved about 1/3. Most players do not even know that they are shaved.

The layout has a "pass" and "don't pass" but most people play the pass line. Since are dealers are not very savvy, we eliminated the "Don't come" box entirely because it pays the same as the don't pass, 1:1. Plus, we do not allow odds anywhere (long story) so, if we allowed don't come, players would have to lay odds and that would put our dealers right over the top. So, if a player want to play on the dark side, it's "don't pass" at 1:1 and that's it. Ive been doing this for 20 years (no don't come/no odds) and players never complain. The do bitch sometimes about no odds on the pass and come bets, but they accept that the game is for a charity.

Recently, we had a player that wanted to play the 4 and the 10 as a "don't place" bet, or so he called it. Obviously, we accept place bets and we pay 1:1, just a pass line bet. Because of this, players rarely place the 4 or the 10. Since all of our "don't action" comes from the don't pass line which is easy to payout, nobody knew how to handle a "don't pass" wager. The stick, being confused, simply said that we don't offer the bet, which is something you can do at your own charity game.

Could somebody explain the don't pass thing to me? As i understand it, we were to accept that bet on say the 4, the player would have to place $9 to win $5, correct. And, since we pay even money on place bets, regardless of the point, that would make a don't pass bet inconsistent with house policy towards pass bets. Help?

As always, thanks.
TerribleTom
TerribleTom
Joined: Feb 18, 2014
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March 29th, 2014 at 12:39:06 PM permalink
I'd start here: http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

At a casino, a Place bet pays as follows:
6/8 = 7 to 6
5/9 = 7 to 5
4/10 = 9 to 5

By paying 1:1, the house should be winning a lot of money - perfect for a charity game.

Place to Lose (aka Don't Place) is not typically offered in the US.

Where available, a Place to Lose pays:
6/8 = 4 to 5
5/9 = 5 to 8
4/10 = 5 to 11

If you start paying 1:1 on these wagers you will lose money. Not a good plan for a fundraiser.
Venthus
Venthus
Joined: Dec 10, 2012
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March 29th, 2014 at 12:53:08 PM permalink
And to add... while Don't Place/Place to Lose is relatively uncommon, you do have the Lay bet which pays:

6/8 = 5 to 6
5/9 = 2 to 3
4/10 = 1 to 2
*minus 5% commission.
That is to say, the reverse of a Buy bet.

-----

So... this version is purely pass/don't pass, no odds, plus the props? Should be doing pretty well. Like the above poster, I'd definitely recommend against 1:1 odds on all don'ts. And if you do start that up, please, let us know where you are. =P
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
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March 29th, 2014 at 12:59:34 PM permalink
Quote: TerribleTom

I'd start here: http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

At a casino, a Place bet pays as follows:
6/8 = 7 to 6
5/9 = 7 to 5
4/10 = 9 to 5

By paying 1:1, the house should be winning a lot of money - perfect for a charity game.

Place to Lose (aka Don't Place) is not typically offered in the US.

Where available, a Place to Lose pays:
6/8 = 4 to 5
5/9 = 5 to 8
4/10 = 5 to 11

Thank you. I think I grasp this now. My head was starting to spin.

Yes, by paying even money on place bets, the house is essentially shaving the same way we only pay 20:1 on boxcars. Same concept. Our players don't seem to mind the shaving though because in their mind, getting paid 1:1 is making 100% on their bet, which is just peachy. Bet $20. Go home with $40. That's a good night to most.

What I was having trouble grasping, and you have pointed it out, is that to allow a don't place. we MUST require the player to put out that same amount we are shaving from the "right" side, such as wagering $9 to make $5 on a 4 or 10, etc.

And yes, we would get murdered if we allowed players to simply put out $5 on a "don't 10" and then pay even money. Sometimes It's best to leave well enough alone.





If you start paying 1:1 on these wagers you will lose money. Not a good plan for a fundraiser.

wudged
wudged
Joined: Aug 7, 2013
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March 29th, 2014 at 1:36:44 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

What I was having trouble grasping, and you have pointed it out, is that to allow a don't place. we MUST require the player to put out that same amount we are shaving from the "right" side, such as wagering $9 to make $5 on a 4 or 10, etc.

And yes, we would get murdered if we allowed players to simply put out $5 on a "don't 10" and then pay even money. Sometimes It's best to leave well enough alone.



You wouldn't get murdered per se, but if you did allow a $9 "no 4" bet that pays $5, you would still get taken on that as well. The 9:5 payout on the right side has an edge built in for the house. If you simply flip it around so that it's lay 9 to win 5, the same edge would also flip around to the player. As Wizard and TerribleTom indicated, a Place to Lose bet on 4/10 typically pay 5:11 instead of 5:9.
Riva
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
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March 29th, 2014 at 1:37:03 PM permalink
Quote: Venthus

And to add... while Don't Place/Place to Lose is relatively uncommon, you do have the Lay bet which pays:

6/8 = 5 to 6
5/9 = 2 to 3
4/10 = 1 to 2
*minus 5% commission.
That is to say, the reverse of a Buy bet.

-----

So... this version is purely pass/don't pass, no odds, plus the props? Should be doing pretty well. Like the above poster, I'd definitely recommend against 1:1 odds on all don'ts. And if you do start that up, please, let us know where you are. =P



We don't allow exotic bets for 2 reasons:

1. Our dealers would have difficulty with the math. Paying 1:1 on everything is easy math. The only guy who does any difficult math is the stick on the prop bets.

2. Calculating and paying out at different levels takes TIME, which is our worst enemy. Our goal is to get in as many hands, spins and/or rolls per hour during an evening. It's why we pay 2:1 on blackjack versus 3:2. Simply doubling up a bet is a zillion times faster than having to do math for a 3:2 on a $5 wager.

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