Dark Side Player starting to become bad influence local casino
tonight was just priceless, stepping back from the table and watching pit bosses, craps supervisor and craps dealers all "Kissing A**" tonight and catering to the darkside whale.
I just got to the table and noticed mr. darkside had over 20k in his rack.
Tonight the only hot shooter at the table made 3 points to the firebet completely wiping out mr. darksides bankroll.
Mr. darkside requests another marker for 10k.
Funny thing is that while mr. darkside plays mr. buddy to the hot shooter, he calls over the pit manager and demands that the shooter hits the back wall with both dice or "No Roll" will be called.
it was very weird to get 3 "no rolls when the numbers were coming in but when the "7" was rolled, the dice never hit the back wall and stick man calls it as "7-out" catering to mr. darkside.
Earlier today the same mr.darkside was betting against another hot roller who had made 5 numbers to the fire leaving 9 as last point. Shooter establishes the point and starts to roll.
Mr darkside is already fired up from continuous losses from the previous 5 points made and demands to the crap supervisor that shooter is not hitting the back wall with both dice.
now the good part was the shooter makes his 9 to complete 6 number firebet and low and behold, the stickman calls "NO ROLL" after 3 other players standing just next to where the dice landed witnessed both dice hitting the back wall.
What a joke. tonight that mr. darkside had all the casino employees hanging like puppets on strings.
another thing mr. darkside did was purposely sit at the spot right side of stickman (where all the hot rollers like to shoot.
The night continued after all the hot rollers left leaving nothing but 13 other players that point-7 out. Mr. darkside had full control of the table raking in 1 to 6x 1000.00 chips almost from every shooter at the table.
I personally do not know what to think of these dark side shooters, after witnessing just one hot shooter making 3 points and the dark side player lost over 20k (Come on just from 3 points made)
the way I see it is after the first loss, mr. darkside needs to win the next two 7 outs to make up for his first loss (Kind of like one step ahead & two steps behind.
What a loser! I looked at my wife and continued to chuckle watching his stack go up and down so fast.
This is a very dangerous way to play that's for sure.
With his attitude toward hot rollers tonight I hope he loses his shirt tonight.
Quote: CrapsGenious
Funny thing is that while mr. darkside plays mr. buddy to the hot shooter, he calls over the pit manager and demands that the shooter hits the back wall with both dice or "No Roll" will be called.
it was very weird to get 3 "no rolls when the numbers were coming in but when the "7" was rolled, the dice never hit the back wall and stick man calls it as "7-out" catering to mr. darkside.
This sounds very against the gaming rules to me. If I'd had my bet on the pass line and this happened I'd ask for my money back or make a call to the gaming commission. Deciding if a roll is live or dead based on its outcome has to be super illegal. Specifically it sounds like fraud.
Also I shoot the dark side when I play craps. There's just as many shooters like this on both sides.
Any genius knows that.
Quote: Beethoven9thWhy are you so worried about other players? Just play your own game.
In all fairness, I do play my own game, tonight I rolled over 12 numbers making just over 300 on my roll, eventually I did "7" out making mr darkside mor than 5k from not making the 4. both him and I are happy. what gets me is his attitude and forcing the supervisor to enforce the "Hit back wall or no roll rule" I don;t mind dark side shooters at all. Just be fair.
Quote: petroglyphWhen you sincerely believe that you have been wronged at the table, mark the date and time and immediately call the gaming commission and let the box and floor know that is what you are doing. Tell them you want the tape viewed for accuracy. Don't let them get away with it, whale or no whale. Also when they back down and start apologizing don't except even money, get a bonus.
Any genius knows that.
That's exactly what I did tonight. After the stick man called 7 out, I went to vip and talked to the host and forward to casino manager.
Your entire story is made up because it makes no sense a casino would want to cheat a few low-limit players to help a whale clean them out.
Quote: sodawaterthis makes no sense. why would a casino "cater" to a whale by helping him win? If there's one guy betting $20,000 per shooter on the don't, and some low rollers betting a few dollars on the do, the casino would want to favor the right-side bettors.
Your entire story is made up because it makes no sense a casino would want to cheat a few low-limit players to help a whale clean them out.
LOL.
You'll be surprised what some casinos will do for a big player.
And chances are OP omitted some info when the "short 7 out roll" was made.
Quote: geoffThis sounds very against the gaming rules to me. If I'd had my bet on the pass line and this happened I'd ask for my money back or make a call to the gaming commission. Deciding if a roll is live or dead based on its outcome has to be super illegal. Specifically it sounds like fraud.
Also I shoot the dark side when I play craps. There's just as many shooters like this on both sides.
Sounds like a pretty good advantage play to me. Are you saying that if I show up with $50k and start betting hard on the don't, they will call no roll for the rolls that don't make it to the end, except for 7-outs, which they will count? SWEET. Even better if you have a few buddies show up beforehand to be the shooters who make sure that about 25% of their rolls don't make it all the way to the end.
Quote: RSLOL.
You'll be surprised what some casinos will do for a big player.
Willingly letting them win usually isn't one of those things.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSounds like a pretty good advantage play to me. Are you saying that if I show up with $50k and start betting hard on the don't, they will call no roll for the rolls that don't make it to the end, except for 7-outs, which they will count? SWEET. Even better if you have a few buddies show up beforehand to be the shooters who make sure that about 25% of their rolls don't make it all the way to the end.
Exactly my point.
I do have an update:
I left the hotel room just after midnight and went back to the casino, I was curious how the dark side shooter made out. Apparently he was down to 14k and finally lost it. Also the hot shooter was there again but they cut him off from shooting the dice due to too many warnings to hit the back wall.
I myself didn't do too hot losing back the $300 I won earlier.
But yea, if you are a whale betting the don't, just come to the canada casino and become the puppet play master with all the suits. :)
Quote: sodawaterthis makes no sense. why would a casino "cater" to a whale by helping him win? If there's one guy betting $20,000 per shooter on the don't, and some low rollers betting a few dollars on the do, the casino would want to favor the right-side bettors.
Your entire story is made up because it makes no sense a casino would want to cheat a few low-limit players to help a whale clean them out.
Trust me, the story is not made up. I can't even fathom a casino giving this guy continuous markers for 10k a pop.
Quote: RSLOL.
You'll be surprised what some casinos will do for a big player.
And chances are OP omitted some info when the "short 7 out roll" was made.
I didn't leave out any info, the dice rolled an 8 with one die hitting the alligator skin wall and the other die landed approx. 3" from the wall but did not hit the wall. followed by "no roll" from stick man.
When the 7 was rolled the first dice landed flat just shortly passed the come area and the second die hit the wall making a 7 and stickman called 7 out and 3 players on that side all yelled out "No roll"
SMARTEST THING SAID IN THIS THREAD YET. Very good point. Yet no answer. I guess because he believes in HOT shooters.Quote: djatcWhy not play on the whale's side to get the benefit of the pit's favoritism towards him?
Quote: AxelWolfhe believes in HOT shooters
He believes in manipulative dealers too.
If it is really happening, I agree that you either have to get on the side the cheating dealers are supporting or don't play.
The best policy I have seen is to threaten "no roll" to be called, but to never actually do it [unless it is preposterously short, like still close to the shooter's release]. That way the dealers don't get selective. Usually such selectiveness is a prejudice against calling 'no-roll' against a 7-out. What is described here is very unusual.
Personally, I would be inclined to color up and leave once no-rolls actually start getting called. If I stayed, it would be to play darkside figuring the 7-out protection would be going on. Any doubt would make me leave.
Quote: CrapsGeniousTrust me, the story is not made up. I can't even fathom a casino giving this guy continuous markers for 10k a pop.
Really? If he has the money deposited at the cage or a line of credit, they'll keep giving it to him until he hits the limits. Then they'll let him deposit more or pay the line back and give it to him again. Heck, he may even get his line of credit increased if he is credit-worthy of such an action.
You've also seen him get "cleaned out" by "hot shooters" but he does have just a tiny bit better chance of winning than you do, so he could also be winning in the same amounts when you aren't there.
The dice calls are a different thing and the last person I would go to is a host or someone on that side of the house. If it is really happening, find out the procedure for reporting cheating in Canada and report it when you see it. Time, date, names of dealers and box, etc. Tell them you are reporting it. If they are that blatant and the surveillance is there, they will get caught.
If it is really happening they are cheating the CASINO along with the individual players. It has an impact on you, of course, but they are taking a little money away from you (no disrespect to your playing amounts; I play in the same range) to pay him a lot of money. If he wins and loses like everyone else does on fair rolls, that would give him an unfair advantage. No casino wants that to happen.
Quote: AxelWolfSMARTEST THING SAID IN THIS THREAD YET. Very good point. Yet no answer. I guess because he believes in HOT shooters.
It sounds to me that you are totally against anyone who believes in "Hot Shooters"
1) No one can define a "hot shooter" whether they roll 2 points and 7 out or 20+ numbers or more all the time.
2) You can not prove it.
I define myself in many cases a "Hot shooter" rolling many repeating numbers using dice setting techniques, yet I still have my losing days and point-7 outs from time to time.
Just believe that they do exist, because they do.
Quote:Why not play on the whale's side to get the benefit of the pit's favoritism towards him?
Hello. did you read my update? The dark side player lost his shirt. why would I want to follow trends of a "Whale with no brains"
Quote: RonCReally? If he has the money deposited at the cage or a line of credit, they'll keep giving it to him until he hits the limits. Then they'll let him deposit more or pay the line back and give it to him again. Heck, he may even get his line of credit increased if he is credit-worthy of such an action.
You've also seen him get "cleaned out" by "hot shooters" but he does have just a tiny bit better chance of winning than you do, so he could also be winning in the same amounts when you aren't there.
The dice calls are a different thing and the last person I would go to is a host or someone on that side of the house. If it is really happening, find out the procedure for reporting cheating in Canada and report it when you see it. Time, date, names of dealers and box, etc. Tell them you are reporting it. If they are that blatant and the surveillance is there, they will get caught.
If it is really happening they are cheating the CASINO along with the individual players. It has an impact on you, of course, but they are taking a little money away from you (no disrespect to your playing amounts; I play in the same range) to pay him a lot of money. If he wins and loses like everyone else does on fair rolls, that would give him an unfair advantage. No casino wants that to happen.
The truth is, it's not cheating, The casino gives many shooters slack to hitting the back wall even though it is one of the basic rules of craps "to hit both dice to the back wall"
Many dice setters / influencers do not hit that back wall "I myself for one" do not hit the back wall many times.
The dark shooter obviously banks on "all" shooters hitting that back wall making every roll random"
it is almost impossible for a dice setter to roll the numbers he/she is looking for after they hit that wall.
I am not upset that the darkside player likes to stress that rule, it's his ignorant attitude toward the shooters rolling a couple of points. I understand he gets upset after losing 20k but geez give us some slack so we can make a few bucks too.
Quote: CrapsGeniousIt sounds to me that you are totally against anyone who believes in "Hot Shooters"
1) No one can define a "hot shooter" whether they roll 2 points and 7 out or 20+ numbers or more all the time.
2) You can not prove it.
I define myself in many cases a "Hot shooter" rolling many repeating numbers using dice setting techniques, yet I still have my losing days and point-7 outs from time to time.
Just believe that they do exist, because they do.
Hello. did you read my update? The dark side player lost his shirt. why would I want to follow trends of a "Whale with no brains"
Read the wizards signature. You're taking the result over whether or not the advantage was to side with the whale who could "influence" the seven out.
Quote: djatcRead the wizards signature. You're taking the result over whether or not the advantage was to side with the whale who could "influence" the seven out.
Even if "all"shooter hit that back wall with both dice does not mean all dark side players will win, I tested and ran many simulation using wincraps using custom dice probabilities, and the results are not pleasant.
I've proven to myself after hundreds of simulations that Betting the "dark side" does not hold water.
Even though true random rolls will bring out the 7 to benefit the dark side shooter, just having a couple wins before 7 will put the dark side player into chasing his money.
Open wincraps and in config > probabilities st the dice to 7 or even 8 and activate hyper drive and run 10k hands. record every session then delete the lowest and the highest sessions and re-run the sim.
then try it with 7 set to 4 or 5 to cater more to the dice influencer and run the sim for 10k hands removing the highest and lowest outcomes then compare.
Results on both sides show undesirable outcomes.
The wizard may be correct in what he says but that does not mean the game is beatable with just picking up and tossing the dice to the back wall. (Expect to lose your money) as I did last night having to follow that basic rule.
Either way craps is a negative expectation game so everyone's gonna lose money eventually.
Quote: CrapsGeniousOpen wincraps and in config > probabilities st the dice to 7 or even 8 and activate hyper drive and run 10k hands. record every session then delete the lowest and the highest sessions and re-run the sim.
then try it with 7 set to 4 or 5 to cater more to the dice influencer and run the sim for 10k hands removing the highest and lowest outcomes then compare.
Results on both sides show undesirable outcomes.
Quote: the WizardThe following table shows the player advantage on the pass line bet (if he can roll less 7s)
See table of course [in below link]. Unless I misunderstand what Michael wrote, or what you wrote, what you simulated seems to be in conflict with his theoretical outcomes.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/4/
Quote: CrapsGeniousThe truth is, it's not cheating, The casino gives many shooters slack to hitting the back wall even though it is one of the basic rules of craps "to hit both dice to the back wall"
It is not cheating if the casino reminds the player to hit the back wall and then takes the dice away if they continue to fail to comply. As long as they are consistent in enforcement, they are just making everyone play by the same rules.
What you described and the way it was described is cheating if it was done on purpose to help the "dark side" player, which is what you said happened.
Eight rolled, short of wall, no roll
Seven rolled, short of wall, called a roll
In my opinion, once the first "no roll" is called for a shooter for being short of the wall (not for die in the bank or some other issue), EVERY short roll should be called "no roll"...firm, fair, consistent...
If they call a 7 on a short roll just after no rolling an 8, and they do it to favor Mr. Darkside, they are cheating.
Quote: RonCIt is not cheating if the casino reminds the player to hit the back wall and then takes the dice away if they continue to fail to comply. As long as they are consistent in enforcement, they are just making everyone play by the same rules.
What you described and the way it was described is cheating if it was done on purpose to help the "dark side" player, which is what you said happened.
Eight rolled, short of wall, no roll
Seven rolled, short of wall, called a roll
In my opinion, once the first "no roll" is called for a shooter for being short of the wall (not for die in the bank or some other issue), EVERY short roll should be called "no roll"...firm, fair, consistent...
If they call a 7 on a short roll just after no rolling an 8, and they do it to favor Mr. Darkside, they are cheating.
Kind of makes you wonder what they cater to in the vip room after witnessing the favourtism on the main floor. It was exciting to watch the whale win and lose 1k chips. At one point he had close to half a rack of 1k chips but the swings are crazy.
Yeah, I believe they must know what he lost before and try to "ease the pain" by favouring him over the rest of the players. In my opinion, he didn't belong there at a $15.00 table throwing 1k chips around. Maybe he just likes to surround himself with all the lowballers to make himself look bigger as a "Whale" gambler.
You are kidding right. Stickman is kissing the darksider's ass. That's his job. And if the whale is tipping him, Oh My , how sweet.
Whale is probably a confirmed loser. Why would a casino give a player a rebate on his losses ? ? ?
Ask Don Johnson. He can give you 15 Million reasons !
LOLQuote: CrapsGenioushe didn't belong there at a $15.00 table throwing 1k chips around.
What a silly statement. If he's betting between the min-max bets, then he belongs there. Whether or not YOU want him there is something completely different.
Table games manager comes out of back room, and before he can say a word, I ask him for gaming's number. He apologizes to WHALE and says nothing he can do about it.
I did not call gaming, just played for an hour until Mr Whale made 2 trips to ATM. Filled out comment card and emailed corporate from home. Same table manager comped me and Josie two Faraday meals our next visit.
Quote: Beethoven9thLOL
What a silly statement. If he's betting between the min-max bets, then he belongs there. Whether or not YOU want him there is something completely different.
Maybe then he did belong there but till he started showing up to the table, they didn't care if we threw the dice and not hit the wall. I was cashing in on quite a few Firebets and repeating numbers, now that stupid "Hit the back wall rule" is enforced, my firebets cut down and so did wins from other shooters. Feels like luck now when we win at the craps table. I normally will hedge about 3-5 firebets a day, now i'm lucky to hedge 1-2 a day.
Might be time to get a real job.
Quote: BuzzardDamn right, get gaming involved. Has an asshole playing a table all by himself one Friday night in Blackhawk. Except some hands he only played 5 spots, not all 7. What a Whale, LOL $5 limit in Colorado then. So when he dropped to 5 hands, I jumped right in and bet the other two. Just to see what would happen. Pit boss, nice young kid, tried to smooth thing over, saying he would find me a spot at another table. Told him " No Thanks" Mr. Whale and his GF give me the stink eye. Like I cared.
Table games manager comes out of back room, and before he can say a word, I ask him for gaming's number. He apologizes to WHALE and says nothing he can do about it.
I did not call gaming, just played for an hour until Mr Whale made 2 trips to ATM. Filled out comment card and emailed corporate from home. Same table manager comped me and Josie two Faraday meals our next visit.
Epic, pure awesome. My kind of humor.
Quote: CrapsGeniousKind of makes you wonder what they cater to in the vip room after witnessing the favourtism on the main floor. It was exciting to watch the whale win and lose 1k chips. At one point he had close to half a rack of 1k chips but the swings are crazy.
Yeah, I believe they must know what he lost before and try to "ease the pain" by favouring him over the rest of the players. In my opinion, he didn't belong there at a $15.00 table throwing 1k chips around. Maybe he just likes to surround himself with all the lowballers to make himself look bigger as a "Whale" gambler.
If you really think that they were catering to him unfairly, is there any reason that you didn't just mirror his bets? Sounds like you gave up a chance for a few easy +EV bets.
Quote: CrapsGeniousMaybe then he did belong there but till he started showing up to the table, they didn't care if we threw the dice and not hit the wall. I was cashing in on quite a few Firebets and repeating numbers, now that stupid "Hit the back wall rule" is enforced, my firebets cut down and so did wins from other shooters. Feels like luck now when we win at the craps table. I normally will hedge about 3-5 firebets a day, now i'm lucky to hedge 1-2 a day.
Might be time to get a real job.
So, do you normally not like to play by the rules, or is that just at the craps table?
The rules of the game are to roll the dice in such a way that they both hit the wall. If you've been getting away with breaking the rules, it's probably not you that should be complaining.
"Feels like luck now..." Good one.
Quote: TerribleTomQuote: CrapsGeniousMaybe then he did belong there but till he started showing up to the table, they didn't care if we threw the dice and not hit the wall. I was cashing in on quite a few Firebets and repeating numbers, now that stupid "Hit the back wall rule" is enforced, my firebets cut down and so did wins from other shooters. Feels like luck now when we win at the craps table. I normally will hedge about 3-5 firebets a day, now i'm lucky to hedge 1-2 a day.
Might be time to get a real job.
So, do you normally not like to play by the rules, or is that just at the craps table?
The rules of the game are to roll the dice in such a way that they both hit the wall. If you've been getting away with breaking the rules, it's probably not you that should be complaining.
"Feels like luck now..." Good one.
True, i am the guilty one, but at that casino they never really cared about it. Now I need to find a new game to play because I can't roll as many firebets when hitting the wall.
This was on a $5 table.
Quote: CrapsGeniousMight be time to get a real job.
I know, I got used to pulling 10k a month out of the casino too, then some a-hole like this guy you describe screwed it up for me and it got down to 8k per month ... I couldn't pay my bills anymore. I still hate bill collectors. Relentless!
Quote: RonCIf they call a 7 on a short roll just after no rolling an 8, and they do it to favor Mr. Darkside, they are cheating.
The more I think about it, the more I think the thing to do if you see this, is to go darkside and stick around.
Update: Man dies in car crash despite wearing a seat belt and having airbags. Why would you wear a seat belt and have a car with airbags? That guy must have been a idiot with no brains.Quote: CrapsGenious
Hello. did you read my update? The dark side player lost his shirt. why would I want to follow trends of a "Whale with no brains"
Once again,no one has more Dice tossing skills on a craps table then My little sister tossing dice from a cup.
Quote: AxelWolfOnce again,no one has more Dice tossing skills on a craps table then My little sister tossing dice from a cup.
My dice tossing skills are pretty good. I keep both dice on the table almost half the time.
Congratulations to Mr. Darkside from Rochester, NY for making more than $87,000.00 just last saturday afternoon at the craps table betting max on the don't with max odds on every shooter. Even though I was not there to witness this, it was confirmed by a few other regulars.
[CrapsGenious]Hello. did you read my update? The dark side player lost his shirt. why would I want to follow trends of a "Whale with no brains"[CrapsGenious] Who had no brains ?Apparently this guy made some big money while getting calls that favored him. He probably lost a bit the first time because he was running bad and just testing his advantage.Quote: CrapsGeniousUpdate Saturday Feb. 22nd.
Congratulations to Mr. Darkside from Rochester, NY for making more than $87,000.00 just last saturday afternoon at the craps table betting max on the don't with max odds on every shooter. Even though I was not there to witness this, it was confirmed by a few other regulars.
people can always just stroll along betting on hot streaks and other negative systems.
Quote: AxelWolf[CrapsGenious]Hello. did you read my update? The dark side player lost his shirt. why would I want to follow trends of a "Whale with no brains"[CrapsGenious] Who had no brains ?
Even though he did lose his shirt (approx 35k the other night) and (yes I apologize for that direct quote by the way) He did have a winning day and came out ahead. I should have asked what his starting bankroll was?
"I take it back, I take it back" :P
