A question about hedging and insuring the come out bet

I missed this post:

Quote: Ahigh

Crapless craps also hedges against the crap! You can't lose from a crap roll in crapless craps according to Alan's definition of "lose," because all he has to do is roll the point and he wins. Forget that you only win when then point is aces once out of 7 attempts on average. He would still have his $25 pass line "protected" I think in his mind because he doesn't understand that he lost $21.42 of that $25 when the aces got rolled even though there's still a green chip on the felt.

I don't play crapless craps. I know that you do. Good luck with it.

Quote: Ahigh

All that I am trying to do is help Alan, and he specifically asked in his third post on this thread for me to show him how my betting methods are superior.

I appreciate the information. I think you are right that a $4 horn with a $1 yo is superior to a $5 horn high ace deuce, and when I am next at Caesars I am going to check their payouts on the horn numbers to confirm this.

But I have a hard time thinking your betting methods are superior when you put $750 on the come without a simultaneous hedge/craps bet. Losing $750 like that is not what I would consider smart or having fun. Now, I've lost $750 or more that was on the table from pressing bets, but to have that much on the table also means I have some substantial profits in my rail.

I have to admit this, Ahigh, you are a far, far bigger gambler than I am. You are a high roller. You have bigger balls than I do, too. You'll never catch me putting $750 as a come bet... not unless inflation has pushed up the price of Big Mac to $250.

Quote: Ahigh

I've spent at least two hours charting and explaining and plenty of other stuff for Alan's BENEFIT not to drag him down, and he still maintains that insurance is good when you are gambling in spite of it being in the Wizard's Ten Commandments of gambling not to hedge.

With all due respect to the Wizard -- I am sure he is not willing to subsidize or replace my losses. So while his information is good I still have to play the best way for my bankroll. In fact, I am pretty sure that the Wizard never intended to tell people how to bet their money.

And to be honest, if you or the Wizard gave me YOUR money to bet for them at a $25 table, I would feel remiss if I didn't hedge the come out roll.

And finally, there is this:

Quote: Ahigh

I'm pretty sure that most dealers understand this stuff better than either you or Alan. It's really sad that you folks and others just like you represent the culture of craps players. That's a big reason why many poker and video poker and blackjack players look down on the community of craps player as a whole because of the inability for craps players to understand some of what is basic math to an AP video poker player, AP blackjack counter, or professional poker player.

Ahigh, craps is a negative expectation game. You will lose the more you play. You have ZERO chance of beating the game. Somehow you think you stand a chance. The reason why blackjack players and video poker players and poker players look down on craps players is because you have a chance to win at video poker, or poker and blackjack.

Of course, magicians can win at craps. So continue your efforts at levitating the dice. And I'm with you on this. I also try to cast a spell on the dice but I don't have illusions.

.....

There's nothing specific to respond to, really, here, since nothing seems to stick. But Doc was extremely happy and thankful for offering my bankroll to liquidate his fire bet. He's a very happy guy, and we absolutely made a nice connection. When I saw him last night, he asked what I did for a living, and I gave him my business card.

Before I saw him that night, he was talking to me with Louis, the dealer at the Gold Coast, about this very situation where I offered to give him the funds to hedge his last point.

And I thought I pointed it out, but he pulled every last dollar out of his wallet to lay the final point before I made the offer.

You guys that want to claim something else happened that didn't happen are just illuminating your own problems in front of everyone else.

These two people (Louis and Doc) can easily be found at the Gold Coast on just about any weeknight, and it would be super easy to verify my story.

I tell tons of stories of what actually happens at the tables where I go every day, and you could verify them all as I give plenty of information.

But continue to wish you know more about what happened and use your brush to paint me out to be a bad guy. I don't mind.

I want to make one other point about this story: there's only one reason I brought it up, and that's because this is a hedge worth making! As noted in Wizard's Ten Commandments, $1,000 extra profit from a hedge at that stage could in fact be life changing for this guy. Maybe it wasn't, and that's fine. But that's truly a hedge worth making. Not a horn bet, but laying a five? Sure!

As a matter of fact, laying the five has a 3.23% edge, which is lower than the 4.00% to place it. So it's even a better bet than placing the five on its own.

I'm sure you guys knew that though, right? Since you know everything including what the response Doc had to my offer to help him hedge his fire bet. LOL.

Quote: petroglyph

To me it's analogous to the kids knocking on the bedroom door, when I'm just about .

LOL

Doc was a random shooter and gleefully recognizes that he is lucky not a great shooter. He was shooting on the bounciest table all by himself at the time and smiling the whole way. I was not betting at all and had called it a night already for my action.

None of this is really pertinent to any of the discussion except for you guys making up crap about what you think may have happened when you don't even know, though. The only relevance to the conversation is that this is a hedge worth making. It's extremely insightful that you guys take pop shots at me at every opportunity. The only part of the subject that pertains to the hedge is that this was a hedge worth taking in my view.

Question about Doc's roll: he made five points on the fire bet but had to pull the last few bucks out of his wallet to hedge the sixth point?
Did this guy only make a passline point for the previous five numbers? No odds? No place bets? And what happened to his previous wins?

Honestly it doesn't make sense to me. The last couple of times I had five numbers on the fire, I made two or three times that amount with my regular betting.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Question about Doc's roll: he made five points on the fire bet but had to pull the last few bucks out of his wallet to hedge the sixth point?
Did this guy only make a passline point for the previous five numbers? No odds? No place bets? And what happened to his previous wins?

Honestly it doesn't make sense to me. The last couple of times I had five numbers on the fire, I made two or three times that amount with my regular betting.

Hey laid $90 on the eight before that which was his wins up until that point. That $90 was all the chips he had at that point.

The $300 lay came from cash out of his wallet.

But AGAIN none of this conversation has anything to do with anything if you simply believed my story and weren't trying to make me look bad for some reason.

@ Ahigh,

I don't need to verify your story, I believe you. I've never considered you to be dishonest.


It seems then that you did a good thing, and that doc appreciated your offer. You did also point out his last buck from his billfold.


My exchanges with the other poster were conceptual, or hypothetical. True communication is difficult at best.


My beliefs in those exchanges still stand though. I don't like to be interfered with when I'm shooting and neither do you.


And also in my opinion [which wasn't asked for] if the one thousand dollars is a life changing event for the player he shouldn't be gambling.


I too thought it silly to be commenting about some foreign event which I had no direct experience with, but I enjoyed it. An interesting exchange and it


seems your name got tossed in there as a bit of a "strawman". I don't consider it my business what anyone else wants to do if it doesn't effect me personally.

It's easy to get caught up in craps etiquette scenarios, eh? We've all got some strong opinions.

I also appreciate that your comeback was civil.

Quote: petroglyph

@ Ahigh,

I don't need to verify your story, I believe you. I've never considered you to be dishonest.


It seems then that you did a good thing, and that doc appreciated your offer. You did also point out his last buck from his billfold.


My exchanges with the other poster were conceptual, or hypothetical. True communication is difficult at best.


My beliefs in those exchanges still stand though. I don't like to be interfered with when I'm shooting and neither do you.


And also in my opinion [which wasn't asked for] if the one thousand dollars is a life changing event for the player he shouldn't be gambling.


I too thought it silly to be commenting about some foreign event which I had no direct experience with, but I enjoyed it. An interesting exchange and it


seems your name got tossed in there as a bit of a "strawman". I don't consider it my business what anyone else wants to do if it doesn't effect me personally.

It's easy to get caught up in craps etiquette scenarios, eh? We've all got some strong opinions.

I also appreciate that your comeback was civil.

I appreciate that Petro. And yeah, just trying to help the guy do what I thought he already decided he wanted to do and couldn't afford with what was in his wallet.

Quote: Ahigh

But AGAIN none of this conversation has anything to do with anything if you simply believed my story and weren't trying to make me look bad for some reason.

I don't doubt what you told us. Are you paranoid?

If I picked you up with some friends to go play craps at a casino, would you be afraid we were going to dump you in the desert? ;-)