New and improved craps game -- at last!
I wondered how the Aruze game handled the problem and I see they only charge the commission on wins.
I'm not going to make a separate thread out of this but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts between:
1. Keep things the same.
2. Deduct the commission on top of whatever the player bet. For example, if the player bets $200 on the lay-4, then subtract $205 from his balance. Remember, the 5% commission is based on the win.
3. Charge the commission on wins only.
Quote: AcesAndEights+1 for allowing come odds to keep working on the come out.
At least I got one thing right.
Quote: WizardIt seems some are suggesting I don't take the commission from the bet amount, but deduct it from the player's balance automatically. This would seem a convenient way to do it. However, I could picture a different group of users complaining that they shouldn't lose what they never bet and that it is unrealistic, because in the casinos the dealers don't reach over into the players rack and take the commission by force. The player must hand it over himself.
I wondered how the Aruze game handled the problem and I see they only charge the commission on wins.
I'm not going to make a separate thread out of this but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts between:
1. Keep things the same.
2. Deduct the commission on top of whatever the player bet. For example, if the player bets $200 on the lay-4, then subtract $205 from his balance. Remember, the 5% commission is based on the win.
3. Charge the commission on wins only.
At least I got one thing right.
You got a lot right. You asked for comments, though, and this board gets right down into the nitty-gritty of everything.
I'm not understanding the vig on 2 above. Wouldn't it be $210, or am I just confused as to the pay?
I think you can do any of the 3 you want, but it would be nice if the script told a player it was happening.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: WizardIt seems some are suggesting I don't take the commission from the bet amount, but deduct it from the player's balance automatically. This would seem a convenient way to do it. However, I could picture a different group of users complaining that they shouldn't lose what they never bet and that it is unrealistic, because in the casinos the dealers don't reach over into the players rack and take the commission by force. The player must hand it over himself.
I wondered how the Aruze game handled the problem and I see they only charge the commission on wins.
I'm not going to make a separate thread out of this but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts between:
1. Keep things the same.
2. Deduct the commission on top of whatever the player bet. For example, if the player bets $200 on the lay-4, then subtract $205 from his balance. Remember, the 5% commission is based on the win.
3. Charge the commission on wins only.
At least I got one thing right.
You got a lot right. You asked for comments, though, and this board gets right down into the nitty-gritty of everything.
I'm not understanding the vig on 2 above. Wouldn't it be $210, or am I just confused as to the pay?
I think you can do any of the 3 you want, but it would be nice if the script told a player it was happening.
A $200 lay bet on the 4 pays $100, and the vig on lay bets is based on the amount you stand to win. $100*.05=$5
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: beachbumbabsQuote: WizardIt seems some are suggesting I don't take the commission from the bet amount, but deduct it from the player's balance automatically. This would seem a convenient way to do it. However, I could picture a different group of users complaining that they shouldn't lose what they never bet and that it is unrealistic, because in the casinos the dealers don't reach over into the players rack and take the commission by force. The player must hand it over himself.
I wondered how the Aruze game handled the problem and I see they only charge the commission on wins.
I'm not going to make a separate thread out of this but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts between:
1. Keep things the same.
2. Deduct the commission on top of whatever the player bet. For example, if the player bets $200 on the lay-4, then subtract $205 from his balance. Remember, the 5% commission is based on the win.
3. Charge the commission on wins only.
At least I got one thing right.
You got a lot right. You asked for comments, though, and this board gets right down into the nitty-gritty of everything.
I'm not understanding the vig on 2 above. Wouldn't it be $210, or am I just confused as to the pay?
I think you can do any of the 3 you want, but it would be nice if the script told a player it was happening.
A $200 lay bet on the 4 pays $100, and the vig on lay bets is based on the amount you stand to win. $100*.05=$5
Thanks, Ace; I didn't understand that. Actually, I still don't. But what I don't understand about craps could fill 3 books, all by Frank.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm not understanding the vig on 2 above. Wouldn't it be $210, or am I just confused as to the pay?
On lay bets, the vig is applied to the win, not the bet. A $200 lay on the 4 would win $100. 5% of $100 is $5.
Quote:I think you can do any of the 3 you want, but it would be nice if the script told a player it was happening.
The rules below the game do:
Quote: rule 3Lay bets pay true odds, but player must prepay a 5% commission, based on the possible win. This works out to odds of 19-25 on the 6 & 8, 19-31 on the 5 & 9, and 19-41 on the 4 & 10.
Quote:But what I don't understand about craps could fill 3 books, all by Frank.
I think he could stretch that into more than three.
Quote: WizardIt seems some are suggesting I don't take the commission from the bet amount, but deduct it from the player's balance automatically. This would seem a convenient way to do it. However, I could picture a different group of users complaining that they shouldn't lose what they never bet and that it is unrealistic, because in the casinos the dealers don't reach over into the players rack and take the commission by force. The player must hand it over himself.
I wondered how the Aruze game handled the problem and I see they only charge the commission on wins.
I'm not going to make a separate thread out of this but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts between:
1. Keep things the same.
2. Deduct the commission on top of whatever the player bet. For example, if the player bets $200 on the lay-4, then subtract $205 from his balance. Remember, the 5% commission is based on the win.
3. Charge the commission on wins only.
The thing is, Wiz, it's not "playing" the way it does in a casino. When I want to bet $200 on the lay-4, it is true that I hand the casino $205 in total. But the $5 chip doesn't sit on top of the lay bet, it goes directly into the house bank.
So when a player in your game wants a lay-4 for $200, they are apt to just put 2 black chips on the 4, and then when the payout comes back as ...$92.68...that just doesn't look right.
I'm not sure what the right solution is from a UX point of view, but I think option #2 is the best, where "best" is defined as "closest to the casino experience." True, the dealer doesn't reach into your stack to get the commission. But they also don't stack it on top of your bet. Players aren't used to calculating the commission themselves. They mostly hand the bet over to the dealer first, and then the dealer asks them for the commission. At least in my experience.
I don't think #3 would be good at all, as very few casinos charge the vig on win only for lay bets.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI'm not sure what the right solution is from a UX point of view, but I think option #2 is the best, where "best" is defined as "closest to the casino experience." True, the dealer doesn't reach into your stack to get the commission. But they also don't stack it on top of your bet. Players aren't used to calculating the commission themselves. They mostly hand the bet over to the dealer first, and then the dealer asks them for the commission. At least in my experience.
That is not a bad idea. However, I hate to just make the vig vanish. I just know I'll get different complaints about that. I think a lot of players don't really care what the odds are and will bet round numbers laying the odds. If they bet $100, for example, then after the deduction they would be left with a big stack of smaller chips.
On a related note, if the player takes down a lay bet, does he get his vig back?
The big players with Lay bets know exactly what the juice is.Quote: AcesAndEightsbut I think option #2 is the best, where "best" is defined as "closest to the casino experience."
True, the dealer doesn't reach into your stack to get the commission.
But they also don't stack it on top of your bet.
Players aren't used to calculating the commission themselves.
They mostly hand the bet over to the dealer first, and then the dealer asks them for the commission. At least in my experience.
I don't think #3 would be good at all, as very few casinos charge the vig on win only for lay bets.
we know
The vast majority of Craps players have no clue what a Lay bet is let a lone how it works
some figure it out and ask the dealer for the vig amount.
many dealers have never even booked a Lay bet and many dealers treat the vig on a Lay exactly like a Buy. I have yet to see a box, even a dual rate, that got a Lay vig incorrect.
Alan M knows these bets have the highest winning percentage of any Craps bet.
House edge means nothing to the Lay bettor.
If it has yet to be resolvedQuote: WizardOn a related note, if the player takes down a lay bet, does he get his vig back?
yes
Quote: WizardThat is not a bad idea. However, I hate to just make the vig vanish. I just know I'll get different complaints about that. I think a lot of players don't really care what the odds are and will bet round numbers laying the odds. If they bet $100, for example, then after the deduction they would be left with a big stack of smaller chips.
In my opinion, the best user experience would be to take the commission out of the player's bank after the bet has been placed. Unfortunately there is no easy way to program the game that way without a major change in how bets are placed, because you don't want to deduct from the player's bank as each chip is put up there. Basically you need a 3-step process: (1) player places their chips in the lay area (2) player "confirms" their final bet amount (3) game removes commission from the player's bank (probably with an informational message).
Unfortunately this is counter to the way the rest of the bets are placed, and would require a non-trivial amount of dev work for JB. As a fellow software developer I empathize with him :)
Quote:On a related note, if the player takes down a lay bet, does he get his vig back?
That is a great question. I don't actually know as I have never tried.
Quote: odiousgambitthere should be a "rebet" button; convenient especially if betting $10 or $15
There used to be, but it is a lot more complicated than it looks. We decided to keep the programming simple, to nix it.
Quote: Wizard
Quote:Quote:me
But what I don't understand about craps could fill 3 books, all by Frank.
I think he could stretch that into more than three.
And the magic bullet theory lives! Got us both ; baZINGa! lol....
Quote: WizardThere used to be, but it is a lot more complicated than it looks. We decided to keep the programming simple, to nix it.
Is this why you can't/won't use good features of "My Craps Game"? That's a good game, except you have to drag your bets, it allows Come bets on the Come-Out, and it doesn't have the Mersenne Twister RNG. Why don't you just scrap this effort & refer players to the Bovada game, which you recommend? I play the free Bovada games, mainly for their RNG.
You'd have a great game by combining the Bovada & "My Craps Game." Maybe copyright gets in the way. Maybe you don't have the resources.
Quote: Sonny44Is this why you can't/won't use good features of "My Craps Game"? That's a good game, except you have to drag your bets, it allows Come bets on the Come-Out, and it doesn't have the Mersenne Twister RNG. Why don't you just scrap this effort & refer players to the Bovada game, which you recommend? I play the free Bovada games, mainly for their RNG.
You'd have a great game by combining the Bovada & "My Craps Game." Maybe copyright gets in the way. Maybe you don't have the resources.
I prefer to just do my own thing. Besides, I'm sick and tired of this craps game and ready to work on something new.
Quote: WizardI prefer to just do my own thing. Besides, I'm sick and tired of this craps game and ready to work on something new.
Your "own thing" isn't good enough. If that's where you are w/ craps, take down the game & save us both time. I'll stick w/ online free Bovada, for lack of anything better.
Quote: Sonny44it allows Come bets on the Come-Out
What's the point of that? I've seen players try it in a real casino and the dealers always move their bets to the pass line.
Quote: wudgedWhat's the point of that? I've seen players try it in a real casino and the dealers always move their bets to the pass line.
I know. It's weird, but, it's in the program. Otherwise, except for the other 2 issues, it's a good game.
JB crapsQuote: WizardI prefer to just do my own thing. Besides, I'm sick and tired of this craps game and ready to work on something new.
version one and two
take time to get it right.
He has done a great job on both games.
version two is very close to being a real deal.
not that that is that important.
as for Lay bets
Just looking quickly in the game.js file
// Primary Bets section
change the Lay4 .Win between lines 733 and 753 (viewed in notepadd++)
to match the DontComeOdds payoffs
this works
if (Game.Wager.Lay4 .Amount > 0) { delay = Game.Wager.Lay4 .Win (1 / 2, delay); }
if (Game.Wager.DontCome4 .Amount > 0) { delay = Game.Wager.DontCome4 .Win (1, delay); }
if (Game.Wager.DontCome4Odds .Amount > 0) { delay = Game.Wager.DontCome4Odds .Win (1 / 2, delay); }
This will make the Lay odds without any vig.
There is currently no vig removed when any Lay bet has lost
I tested all 6 Lays on a loss and only the wager lost.
never was a vig taken.
I have not yet looked for that in the game.js code and think there is none
as that was accounted for after a bet only won - on the payoff.
I still think rule 3 can easily be implemented and rule 7 can be changed to "be allowed".
3. Lay bets pay true odds, but player must prepay a 5% commission, based on the possible win.
7. Put bets and taking down don't pass and don't come bets, that are already on a number, are not allowed.
(many casinos do not allow a put bet except on the pass line
and all casinos allow removing a dont bet on a point number)
maybe I will just be quiet and do this on my computer sooner or later - unless someone here at WoV does it first or second,
I would charge nothing to do this, of course, give the code to JB.
knowing that JB may want to charge me
Quote: Sonny44Your "own thing" isn't good enough. If that's where you are w/ craps, take down the game & save us both time. I'll stick w/ online free Bovada, for lack of anything better.
This kind of rudeness, Sonny, is pretty unacceptable. I don't see you paying any programmers to build and host a craps sim with all the features you like. The purpose of this one is to help beginning players understand basic betting and the flow of the game. Sorry, Wiz, I know you don't need me to call this guy out, but really?
Quote: 7crapsversion two is very close to being a real deal. .
Thanks!
Quote:This will make the Lay odds without any vig.
We could do that ourselves, but it wouldn't be realistic. I'm trying to stay as close to Vegas rules as I can.
Quote:7. Put bets and taking down don't pass and don't come bets, that are already on a number, are not allowed.
(many casinos do not allow a put bet except on the pass line
and all casinos allow removing a dont bet on a point number)
It was my decision to not allow them, in the interests of protecting the player from himself. I didn't want to confuse the player with bets that almost nobody makes.
Quote:maybe I will just be quiet and do this on my computer sooner or later
Thanks for offering to help, but as far as I'm concerned, it is time to move onto new business.
Quote: Sonny44Your "own thing" isn't good enough. If that's where you are w/ craps, take down the game & save us both time.
I'll be keeping an eye on you.
Quote: Sonny44Is this why you can't/won't use good features of "My Craps Game"? That's a good game, except you have to drag your bets, it allows Come bets on the Come-Out, and it doesn't have the Mersenne Twister RNG. Why don't you just scrap this effort & refer players to the Bovada game, which you recommend? I play the free Bovada games, mainly for their RNG.
You'd have a great game by combining the Bovada & "My Craps Game." Maybe copyright gets in the way. Maybe you don't have the resources.
Quote: WizardI prefer to just do my own thing. Besides, I'm sick and tired of this craps game and ready to work on something new.
Quote: Sonny44Your "own thing" isn't good enough. If that's where you are w/ craps, take down the game & save us both time. I'll stick w/ online free Bovada, for lack of anything better.
Quote: beachbumbabsThis kind of rudeness, Sonny, is pretty unacceptable. I don't see you paying any programmers to build and host a craps sim with all the features you like. The purpose of this one is to help beginning players understand basic betting and the flow of the game. Sorry, Wiz, I know you don't need me to call this guy out, but really?
If an apology is due the Wizard, he has it. However, in light of all the good input he received in this thread, he has opted to stick with what he's been able to do. And, in fairness, he has answered most of that input. All that is ok, and it's ok that he has not incorporated some of my suggestions. If he had just said, "Thanks, all, for your good input. However, I don't have the resources to incorporate all of it, and I need to move on to other projects," I'd have had no problem. He sounded very dismissive of the project and didn't need to say, "I'm sick and tired of this craps game."
Maybe I read it wrong and took it wrong. Maybe too sensitive. Many more-experienced players than I seem satisfied with it, as it stands. It's a good game & I'll try it out. I'm not a sophisticated player. And, it's incredible that craps can even be coded to play on the computer, so hats off to all concerned. Peace.
Quote: Sonny44He sounded very dismissive of the project and didn't need to say, "I'm sick and tired of this craps game."
That was my curt response to those who said both my previous efforts were so bad they should have been immediately removed from the site and I should start over from scratch. I've spent in the thousands of dollars on those two craps game and I'm not going to just throw them away nor throw thousands more at a version 3. I am happy to fix bugs, and have done so, but the way you told me to start over was extremely rude, in my opinion.
It is fully understood that you think the game sucks, JB and I stink at making games, and our game is waste of time compared to other free games out there. Please do play those other games and leave mine to those who appreciate it.
Finally, I'd welcome all who give my game a D to F grade to try making your own. Craps is a VERY difficult game to program.
The individual bet rules themselves aren't that hard to codify, it's the user interface that's problematic. I've never seen an electronic version of craps that came close to replicating the flow that one experiences at a live table - including the ones accepting real bets in casinos.Quote: WizardFinally, I'd welcome all who give my game a D to F grade to try making your own. Craps is a VERY difficult game to program.
I have a UI design that would get much closer to mimicking live craps play, but I've never had the need or opportunity to implement it. If you want to collaborate, shoot me an email. If done well, the design might be saleable to online casinos because they also lack a decent craps experience.
Quote: WizardThat was my curt response to those who said both my previous efforts were so bad they should have been immediately removed from the site and I should start over from scratch. I've spent in the thousands of dollars on those two craps game and I'm not going to just throw them away nor throw thousands more at a version 3. I am happy to fix bugs, and have done so, but the way you told me to start over was extremely rude, in my opinion.
It is fully understood that you think the game sucks, JB and I stink at making games, and our game is waste of time compared to other free games out there. Please do play those other games and leave mine to those who appreciate it.
Finally, I'd welcome all who give my game a D to F grade to try making your own. Craps is a VERY difficult game to program.
Wizard, I was not reacting to your game. I was reacting to your apparent attitude toward the whole project, and from that I thought you didn't care about it & that's why I said to just take down the game. I thought you didn't care about it; that's what I reacted to.
You may have been responding to other criticisms of the game, not just to me. But, I was not criticizing what you've accomplished w/ this game. I will admit that I misinterpreted your comment, ..."this craps game." I thought you meant about craps itself, not the game, itself. I admit that mistake.
In a later post, I said it is a good game & that I would try it. Once again, I was criticizing your attitude toward the project, not the project, itself. This is all I have to say about this.
Quote: Sonny44Wizard, I was not reacting to your game. I was reacting to your apparent attitude toward the whole project,
Okay, thanks for the explanation. Let's file this under misunderstandings and get onto new business.
Quote: WizardOkay, thanks for the explanation. Let's file this under misunderstandings and get onto new business.
Amen.
Thanks again - Wizard and partners!
Quote: gjennomsnittligThanks again - Wizard and partners!
You're welcome!
The code is pure JavaScript and htmlQuote: fivespotCould the odds allowed be customizable?
I'd imagine some players would like to replicate the conditions in a local casino in this game, and customizing the odds would help.
I'm encountering this now, as I'd like to practice playing at a casino which offers 10x odds.
It seems like it should be quite easy to code, and little UI work is needed since you can make the selection a dropdown menu above the applet, rather than a change to the applet itself.
It would also differentiate your game from any other online craps game I've found.
A quick look shows a very clean code presentation by JB
Great work!
One can (as of today) download the webpage and save it on your computer then use a text editor (notepad++) to make/save changes
a few bugs can easily be fixed and/or other suggestions added once one understands the JavaScript layout
it is what I did for the Lay bet vig code challenge awhile back
and right now I quickly did also for having 10X odds.
(I actually use WinCraps to play my craps sessions on my Win7 computer)
point is 5 in the photo. And the point did win
($15 Lay odds bet and $10 Odds bet with $1 flat bet)
here is the code I used for 10x odds
I did not test all the points but it appears to work just fine
from game.js file
at line 217
Game.Wager.PassLineOdds.Max = Game.Wager.PassLine.Amount * [0, 0, 0, 0, 10, 10, 10, 0, 10, 10, 10, 0, 0][Game.Point];
Game.Wager.DontPassOdds.Max = Game.Wager.DontPass.Amount * [0, 0, 0, 0, 20, 15, 12, 0, 12, 15, 20, 0, 0][Game.Point];
at line line 243
Game.Wager.Come4Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come4.Amount * 10;
Game.Wager.Come5Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come5.Amount * 10;
Game.Wager.Come6Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come6.Amount * 10;
Game.Wager.Come8Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come8.Amount * 10;
Game.Wager.Come9Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come9.Amount * 10;
Game.Wager.Come10Odds.Max = Game.Wager.Come10.Amount * 10;
at line 257
Game.Wager.DontCome4Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome4.Amount * 20;
Game.Wager.DontCome5Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome5.Amount * 15;
Game.Wager.DontCome6Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome6.Amount * 12;
Game.Wager.DontCome8Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome8.Amount * 12;
Game.Wager.DontCome9Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome9.Amount * 15;
Game.Wager.DontCome10Odds.Max = Game.Wager.DontCome10.Amount * 20;
Quote: gjennomsnittligHello, although I have known of the forum for a while I have never felt the need to join, but when I went my trusty craps game bookmark and saw the version to, I felt I needed to join just to say a big THANKS ! to those that created the new game. Your efforts are appreciated, by not only me, but, I'm sure, most of the people on this forum.
Thanks again - Wizard and partners!
Wiz:
Great job, I like the new one.
SFB
Also, just a suggestion. If I place $5 on 6 or 8, I think the program should automatically round up to a number divisible by 6. It is kind of a pain when I am increasing bets on the inside numbers and have to select the $5 dollar, then go and select $1 to add that extra amount on the 6 and 8.
Cool version though.
You got a good point except...Quote: slackyhackyAlso, just a suggestion. If I place $5 on 6 or 8, I think the program should automatically round up to a number divisible by 6.
It pays the correct fractional amount - the max loss due to breakage is less than a penny.
Note that this is the same way the eCraps machines work. They allow bets of non-standard units, and pay fractionally.
If the game is open to modifications (which it doesn't sound like it is...) I would request a $500 chip for the new game. For us virtual high rollers :).
Quote: WizardOkay, you all have been complaining about my buggy craps game for years. After much work, JB has finally completed a complete revision. So please check version 2 of my craps game.
Craps is a hard game to program, so please kick the tires as hard as you can and let me know if you find any bugs.
To address some questions/comments that are bound to pop up:
1. To simplify things there are just buy and lay bets on the numbers. The buy bets pay place bet odds on the 5, 6, 8, and 9. The 4 and 10 pay 1.95 to 1, in other words buy odds with no commission.
2. On lay bets, the commission is based on the win, must always be prepaid. Thus the odds are thus 19 to 41 on the 4 and 10, 19 to 31 on the 5 and 9, and 19 to 25 on the 6 and 8.
3. Odds allowed are 3-4-5.
Finally, influencing the dice is perfectly allowed!
Been playing the craps table in Central City/Blackhawk CO for a few months now (I go up with my son on his day off just for some fun and bonding.). Love your game for: fun; the purpose of understanding the basics of craps; and for trying out what I've learned here, in the local casinos and on YouTube.
I immediately bookmarked it after trying it out for 10 minutes or so. Thanks for all your efforts!
Quote: sodawaterOK, we seriously need higher-denomination chips. Where do I send the Wiz a bill for my worn out left mouse button?
Heh, glad someone else feels my pain :)
