New and improved craps game -- at last!
Craps is a hard game to program, so please kick the tires as hard as you can and let me know if you find any bugs.
To address some questions/comments that are bound to pop up:
1. To simplify things there are just buy and lay bets on the numbers. The buy bets pay place bet odds on the 5, 6, 8, and 9. The 4 and 10 pay 1.95 to 1, in other words buy odds with no commission.
2. On lay bets, the commission is based on the win, must always be prepaid. Thus the odds are thus 19 to 41 on the 4 and 10, 19 to 31 on the 5 and 9, and 19 to 25 on the 6 and 8.
3. Odds allowed are 3-4-5.
Finally, influencing the dice is perfectly allowed!
It doesn't suck, but the physics don't look random enough to warrant being associated with your website.
I also got it to freeze in this state:
Quote: tringlomaneUnless I am doing something wrong, I can't place odds on "come" bets, but I can on "don't come" bets.
Yeah, I think there's a bug where you can only place bets up there when they are working.
In the first you can see I've a $5 come bet and a $25 Don't Come (in the UK it would be within the top two narrow lines as they have "Lay" buttons, but can understand why you've done it there). I was unable to place any odds on the Come bet.
In the second I've managed to get $100 Don't Come into the 10 before throwing the 7. Note the Come bet wasn't cleared on the 7.
Subsequent to this I made a come bet (4) and then threw a 7 which did then clear the table. Note no Don't Come bets, everything was cleared.
Not sure how to embed pictures, so here's the links....
picture 1 picture 2
picture 4a < Don't 4 and Don't 5 established, Roll point of 6, Come bet goes in picture 4b < 5 (Don't 5 loses) then 7-Out
I assume that you're trying to do it when there's a new come-out roll.Quote: tringlomaneUnless I am doing something wrong, I can't place odds on "come" bets, but I can on "don't come" bets.
I experienced the same thing ... until I unchecked the option to have come odds off on a come out roll.
I haven't played a lot, but it's missing a couple key features that I have been asking for.
1 - If a non-comtract bet wins (place, hardway, etc), pay the winner, and leave the original bet up. Get rid of the "...and down" logic!
2 - If you insist on the "...and down", then you need to have a "Rebet" button. You had one on the old version. Where'd it go?
3 - Similarly, when a come bet wins, and there is a new bet in the come box, you need to use a dealer's "off and on" procedure of paying, while leaving the old come bet and odds, as well as the new come bet, untouched. Again, not the "...and down" logic.
4 - Hey! Where's my favorite bet? Big 6/8? J/K.
If you do go forward with version 2, please have version 1 (call it "classic") available as well.
I put $5 on the pass. Balance $49,995. Roll 7. New balance $50,000. By chance, I got four more rolls of 7 or 11, each time it returned my $5 pass bet, but my balance remained at $50,000.
-B
Quote: toastcmuNotice that if you run your bets up until you run out of cash, it won't let you roll or clear your bets.
-B
You have $50K to start, so I'd say that is what you call a reality check! [g]
Quote: AhighYeah, I think there's a bug where you can only place bets up there when they are working.
That is deliberate, and was my call. If a bet isn't working, then you aren't able to make it.
Quote: AhighI couldn't get the come odds to work.
It doesn't suck, but the physics don't look random enough to warrant being associated with your website.
Can you elaborate on your physics remark? The come odds worked for me. If you mean during a come out roll, did you un-check the box at the top?
What were its problems?
Quote: WizardThanks for all the comments thus far. We'll address all of them as JB's time permits.
That is deliberate, and was my call. If a bet isn't working, then you aren't able to make it.
Can you elaborate on your physics remark? The come odds worked for me. If you mean during a come out roll, did you un-check the box at the top?
It appears that there is a single animation of the dice tumbling and only the pips are different. If you brute force it like this, use a minimum of three different animations and make it look like they are doing what appear to be random bounces. Or if you want to go the other way, make both dice tumble 100% on axis the exact same way and use a random set only bouncing in what look like 100% contrived bounces. The way it looks just doesn't look real the way the dice bounce. I would expect an app associated with the Wizard of Vegas to have very random LOOKING dice movements as well as using a good RNG.
Regarding the dice animation - my artistic capability is zero. While the outcome of each die is determined randomly, the animation is indeed crude because it's about the best I can do. I was hoping that the "throw across the table and bounce" animation would be perceived as more realistic than the "spinning slot machine reel" effect used in the first version.
Regarding the "ugly" comment -- is it the font used on the table that makes it seem ugly? I think the original version is "uglier" than this one, but I could be in the minority.
I'll post updates in here as the bugs are corrected.
I have fixed the payout problem where the original bet was not also being paid back.
Quote: AhighIt appears that there is a single animation of the dice tumbling and only the pips are different. If you brute force it like this, use a minimum of three different animations and make it look like they are doing what appear to be random bounces. Or if you want to go the other way, make both dice tumble 100% on axis the exact same way and use a random set only bouncing in what look like 100% contrived bounces. The way it looks just doesn't look real the way the dice bounce. I would expect an app associated with the Wizard of Vegas to have very random LOOKING dice movements as well as using a good RNG.
You must have us confused with professional graphic animators.
Quote: DJTeddyBear3 - Similarly, when a come bet wins, and there is a new bet in the come box, you need to use a dealer's "off and on" procedure of paying, while leaving the old come bet and odds, as well as the new come bet, untouched. Again, not the "...and down" logic.
Do you mean that if the player has an old come bet with odds, and a new come bet, and the old come bet wins, you don't return the old odds bet, but assume the player wants to put up odds on the new come bet?
Example: Player has $10 come bet on the six, $50 odds on to go with it, and a new $10 come bet. Player rolls a six. You pay player $80 ($10 old come bet + $10 win on old come bet + $60 win on the odds), and leave the $50 in odds up with the come bet just moved to the 6.
Not quite.Quote: WizardDo you mean that if the player has an old come bet with odds, and a new come bet, and the old come bet wins, you don't return the old odds bet, but assume the player wants to put up odds on the new come bet?Quote: DJTeddyBear3 - Similarly, when a come bet wins, and there is a new bet in the come box, you need to use a dealer's "off and on" procedure of paying, while leaving the old come bet and odds, as well as the new come bet, untouched. Again, not the "...and down" logic.
Example: Player has $10 come bet on the six, $50 odds on to go with it, and a new $10 come bet. Player rolls a six. You pay player $80 ($10 old come bet + $10 win on old come bet + $60 win on the odds), and leave the $50 in odds up with the come bet just moved to the 6.
The dealer typically pays $70, without moving or removing the old come bet, odds or new come bet. I.E. There's still $10 + $50 on the six, with $10 still in tte come box.
I've heard several dealers say "off and on" when they do this. Sometimes they'll tap the new come bet at the same time as an indicator to The Eye.
1) The glitch when trying to bet your last chips has been fixed.
2) The problem with the Come 10 bet remaining in place when it should have lost has been fixed.
3) As I mentioned earlier, when a bet wins, the amount that was bet is now being added in to the balance.
4) I changed the RNG to a Mersenne Twister instead of using Javascript's Math.random() method.
All other issues or enhancements are being looked into.
You may need to refresh/reload the page the next time you access it in order to download the latest version.
I had a bunch of come bets with odds up, and made my point.
I like that each come odds has an off button.
For shits & giggles, I unclicked the option for come bets being off on a come out. I then clicked it again. The off button correctly disappeared then reappeared.
The next roll was a 7. All my come bets were mucked, but the come odds stayed there - with the off button!
The next roll was a point that I didn't have a prior come bet on. The off buttons disappeared.
The next roll was a 7-out, and my old come odds were mucked with my other losing bets.
I tried to do it again just to verify, but gave up after 15 minutes.
1) how about making a Lay bet on the come out rollQuote: JBA few fixes/changes to update:
no vig on a loss?
2) When I make a Buy bet or a Hardway on the come out roll, boxes unchecked,
but change my mind before I roll the dice,
I can not clear the bet(s) except to refresh the page
3) Place bets (Buy bets)
Please make this two different bets
ME showed you how to fix the Buy and Lay payoffs for version 1 some time ago.
I also like the place to lose bets
Shoot to Win Craps offers these
with Shoot to Win Craps, actually with Rapid Craps by ShuffleMaster,
and even WinCraps (you can have this on Windows for free)
after a win a new window opens to offer the player options like so
not asking to make a new WinCraps
many do appreciate your talented efforts
Thank You!
1. When a bet won the original bet seemed to be always returned. I didn't test this for every situation, but can confirm when an old come bet wins, with odds, on the same rule as a new come bet was made, the original odds bet is returned. If you want to put them on the new come bet, then you have to make a new bet.
2. Odds were off on hard ways on a come out roll.
3. You could turn on/off all bets, except pass, don't pass, come, and don't come, with the touch of the screen. If you wanted to turn off just certain bets you would have to take them down and then remake them when ready.
I'm thinking the goal shouldn't be to replicate the ways things are done on a real table so much as to do things more logically. I think modeling the game, more or less, after the Aruze game wouldn't be such a bad idea. That said, here are pictures of the various rule screens from the Red Rock game.
Bet area 1
Bet area 2
Bet area 3
Bet area 4
Bet area 5
Function
How to bet
Pays
Rules
Ok. I'll drop that argument...
Until the Aruze game replaces the table game, online craps games should be based on the live table game. Speaking for myself, I play free online craps to help me at the live table, and most of that is due to the similarity between the table and online apps. IOW, getting a visual sense of where bets are, etc., helps one transfer to the live table. Like I say, when the Aruze game replaces the live table, then online craps apps can follow suit, but not until then.
There is also the aspect of copyright by Aruze. I know you don't do this for profit, but you should clear it with them if you haven't, already.
I suggest you not alter v. 1 too radically; just add some features and debug whatever is in v. 1. I'm glad you've adopted the Mersienne Twister for your RNG. I only play Bovada's free game, due to its RNG. I like the v. 1 layout & if you could/would adopt some features I've already suggested, I would prefer playing on your site.
Better yet have an "Off & On ?" setting that allows the player to choose either behaviour.
BTW why doesn't "behaviour" pass the spell check here?
Quote: cowboyBTW why doesn't "behaviour" pass the spell check here?
We don't have a spell check here. It is probably your browser that is checking your spelling, and if so, its language setting is probably set to U.S. English. In U.S. English "behaviour" and similar words are spelled without the unnecessary "u" (i.e. behavior, favor, flavor, savor, neighbor, color, etc., instead of behaviour, favour, flavour, savour, neighbour, colour, etc.).
Quote: cowboyThank yo
I think the u is probably necessary in this case. ;-)
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe dealer typically pays $70, without moving or removing the old come bet, odds or new come bet. I.E. There's still $10 + $50 on the six, with $10 still in tte come box.
I've heard several dealers say "off and on" when they do this. Sometimes they'll tap the new come bet at the same time as an indicator to The Eye.
That's not how the Azure game does it. I've never heard anybody complain that game doesn't play like real craps. Part of the reason for making the game was to teach new players the game, and I don't want to confuse them with bets getting automatically re-bet.
Quote: 7craps1) how about making a Lay bet on the come out roll
no vig on a loss?
Yes, that should be allowed. JB, please take note.
Quote:2) When I make a Buy bet or a Hardway on the come out roll, boxes unchecked,
but change my mind before I roll the dice,
I can not clear the bet(s) except to refresh the page
Maybe JB fixed that since you wrote, but I can remove the bets by doing a shift-click.
Quote:3) Place bets (Buy bets)
Please make this two different bets
ME showed you how to fix the Buy and Lay payoffs for version 1 some time ago.
I also like the place to lose bets
Shoot to Win Craps offers these
I only allow one way to bet ON the numbers because:
1. There is only so much space to work with.
2. It makes the programming easier.
3. Some Internet casinos do it this way.
4. I'm trying to protect the player from himself by only offering the better of the two options.
Quote:with Shoot to Win Craps, actually with Rapid Craps by ShuffleMaster,
and even WinCraps (you can have this on Windows for free)
after a win a new window opens to offer the player options like so
not asking to make a new WinCraps
many do appreciate your talented efforts
Keep in mind how much you're paying for the site. Then think about how many millions Shufflemaster makes. I have to cut a lot corners, my friend.
I'll keep you up to date as we go.
ZCore13
The game passes my own tests, but I welcome the forum the kick the tires as hard as you can. We welcome all comments, questions, and especially corrections.
Craps version 2.2.
Quote: WizardMuch like HealthCare.gov, we've taken the craps game back to the workshop for another month of bug fixes. In the latest version, the player can opt to leave all bets working on a come out roll, or just those that are generally are. The player can also opt to leave winning bets up, with some exceptions.
The game passes my own tests, but I welcome the forum the kick the tires as hard as you can. We welcome all comments, questions, and especially corrections.
Craps version 2.2.
There are no Place to Win bets at all, nor Place to Lose.
EDIT: Never mind, I see that they are all just called, "Buy," bets, but it defaults to a Place when Place is better.
Quote: Mission146I see that they are all just called, "Buy," bets, but it defaults to a Place when Place is better.
Right, the game gives the player the best between buy and place bets, as well as lay and don't place bets.
Quote: WizardRight, the game gives the player the best between buy and place bets, as well as lay and don't place bets.
With all due respect, I'd consider separating them, that way learning Craps players will get used to knowing the difference at the tables. Otherwise, perhaps program the game to call it a Place bet when Place is better and Buy when Buy is better, even though it can be the same betting spot.
Quote: Mission146With all due respect, I'd consider separating them, that way learning Craps players will get used to knowing the difference at the tables. Otherwise, perhaps program the game to call it a Place bet when Place is better and Buy when Buy is better, even though it can be the same betting spot.
As ahigh has pointed out many times, I don't play a great deal of craps, but based on what I have played, players don't specify if they want a buy or place bet. They will say something like "$50 each on the 6 and 8." I might add that these bets are dealer controlled. In other words, the player doesn't place money in that section of the table directly. The dealers will pay the player according to the better odds between the two types of bets. If the player has been tipping, the dealers may also advise on betting in exact multiples to avoid getting rounded down.
Quote: Sonny44There are no $1 chips. There's no ability to make a $6 1x odds bet on the 5 or 9.
Good point.
Quote: WizardAs ahigh has pointed out many times, I don't play a great deal of craps, but based on what I have played, players don't specify if they want a buy or place bet. They will say something like "$50 each on the 6 and 8." I might add that these bets are dealer controlled. In other words, the player doesn't place money in that section of the table directly. The dealers will pay the player according to the better odds between the two types of bets. If the player has been tipping, the dealers may also advise on betting in exact multiples to avoid getting rounded down.
I agree with all of that, my concern is a player going into the casino (from playing the game) and actually asking to Buy a $30 six, or something along those Lines. Dealers might be specifically instructed not to question a player who asks to Buy the six, and even if they do, the player looks stupid for saying he wants to Buy a six.
I agree that the typical player will say, "Give me a $30 six," or, "$30 against the six," but the player that this Craps game is geared to may be unlikely to really know the jargon anyway.
I'm not really suggesting that both bets actually be offered, just that 5, 6, 8, and 9 say "Place" in the text field rather than, "Buy."
The bottom part also says, "Buy 8 wins x," which is incorrect, because that's not what the bet is.
Perhaps I'm just being too much of a perfectionist on this issue.
Quote: Mission146I agree with all of that, my concern is a player going into the casino (from playing the game) and actually asking to Buy a $30 six, or something along those Lines. Dealers might be specifically instructed not to question a player who asks to Buy the six, and even if they do, the player looks stupid for saying he wants to Buy a six.
I agree that the typical player will say, "Give me a $30 six," or, "$30 against the six," but the player that this Craps game is geared to may be unlikely to really know the jargon anyway.
I'm not really suggesting that both bets actually be offered, just that 5, 6, 8, and 9 say "Place" in the text field rather than, "Buy."
The bottom part also says, "Buy 8 wins x," which is incorrect, because that's not what the bet is.
+1
Quote: Mission146I agree with all of that, my concern is a player going into the casino (from playing the game) and actually asking to Buy a $30 six, or something along those Lines. Dealers might be specifically instructed not to question a player who asks to Buy the six, and even if they do, the player looks stupid for saying he wants to Buy a six.
Okay, to help explain the terminology, I rewrote rule 2 as follows.
Quote: Rule 2To simplify the game, instead of offering both place and buy bets, I offer just one for each number. Each number pays the better odds between place and buy bets. I refer to these as "buy bets." They pay 7-6 on the 6 & 8, 7-5 on the 5 & 9, and 39-20 on the 4 & 10.
This way the beginner will at least understand I'm using my own terminology. If I call them place bets then somebody else will comment that paying 39-20 on the 4 and 10 are not place bet odds.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure I've seen it happen lots of times when somebody makes a place bet, but says "I'd like to buy the 6 and 8."
Quote:I agree that the typical player will say, "Give me a $30 six," or, "$30 against the six," but the player that this Craps game is geared to may be unlikely to really know the jargon anyway.
I'm open to better suggestions, but having both place and buy bets on the game is not an option.
Quote:I'm not really suggesting that both bets actually be offered, just that 5, 6, 8, and 9 say "Place" in the text field rather than, "Buy."
Okay, that is a reasonable suggestion. I thought of this too. However, the number of times I've ever seen a player say something like "Like like to make $20 places bets on the 5, 6, 8, and 9, and $20 buy bets on the 4 and 10." is zero. I feel for practical purposes they are not separate bets any longer. Players just bet the numbers and get paid according to the better of the two odds, even if they specifically say "buy" or "place."
Quote:The bottom part also says, "Buy 8 wins x," which is incorrect, because that's not what the bet is.
It does on my table. I am calling a place bet a buy bet.
Quote:Perhaps I'm just being too much of a perfectionist on this issue.
Your points are well taken. Perhaps I will reword rule 2 even more to clarify the terminology.
Quote: WizardIt does on my table. I am calling a place bet a buy bet.
If your goal is to provide a browser-based facsimile of the live game suitable for beginners to learn how to play in a casino, you should hew as closely as possible to the traditional terminology and dealer procedure -- all the way down to the proper bet placement in a box, and lammers to distinguish buy vs. come vs. place. If your goal is to provide a quick electronic approximation, any suitable design choice is fine.
Quote: Wizard
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure I've seen it happen lots of times when somebody makes a place bet, but says "I'd like to buy the 6 and 8."
I've heard that before, people more familiar with live action just usually say the amount(s) and the number(s), in my experience.
Quote:Okay, that is a reasonable suggestion. I thought of this too. However, the number of times I've ever seen a player say something like "Like like to make $20 places bets on the 5, 6, 8, and 9, and $20 buy bets on the 4 and 10." is zero. I feel for practical purposes they are not separate bets any longer. Players just bet the numbers and get paid according to the better of the two odds, even if they specifically say "buy" or "place."
That's pretty much true, or they just ask to buy them all, as you pointed out.
Quote:Your points are well taken. Perhaps I will reword rule 2 even more to clarify the terminology.
Thanks, everything else is working well, from what I can tell.
Quote: WizardOkay, forget everything I just said. I just asked JB to change the term to "place" for the 5, 6, 8, and 9.
Nice!
I only looked at it for Lay6, not any other bets, so there still may be other errors.
I be willing to bet there are more than just this one.
This seems to be giving JB a challenge
Try a Lay6 for $60 in new version
the 5% vig paid up front should be $2.50
and a win nets $47.50 ($60 pays $50)
I had to check my work
the net at this table was $45.60 with the same 5% vig paid up front
On a loss for the Lay6 the pre-paid 5% vig is not deducted as per rules
"Lay bets pay true odds, but player must prepay a 5% commission, based on the possible win. "
Quote: 7crapsThere still appears to be a Lay bet payoff problem that also existed back in version one
I only looked at it for Lay6, not any other bets, so there still may be other errors.
I be willing to bet there are more than just this one.
This seems to be giving JB a challenge
Try a Lay6 for $60 in new version
the 5% vig paid up front should be $2.50
and a win nets $47.50 ($60 pays $50)
My game charges the vig on lay bets all the time. That is my understanding how they do it at the live tables. In the case of making a lay bet on the 6, the game calculates the wager portion, after subtracting 5% of the possible win. In this case:
60 = wager + 0.05*(5/6)*wager
60 = wager*(1+ (1/24))
60 = wager*(25/24)
wager = 60*(24/25)
wager = $57.60.
So the commission was $2.40.
When it won, you got paid (5/6)*$57.60 - $2.40 = $48.00 - $2.40 = $45.60.
yes, most all Nevada casinos I have played in and dealt the game at collect the 5% vig up front on all Lay bets.Quote: WizardMy game charges the vig on lay bets all the time. That is my understanding how they do it at the live tables. In the case of making a lay bet on the 6, the game calculates the wager portion, after subtracting 5% of the possible win. In this case:
60 = wager + 0.05*(5/6)*wager
60 = wager*(1+ (1/24))
60 = wager*(25/24)
wager = 60*(24/25)
wager = $57.60.
So the commission was $2.40.
When it won, you got paid (5/6)*$57.60 - $2.40 = $48.00 - $2.40 = $45.60.
I noticed (while playing your version 2)
when my Lay6 lost (on a roll of 6) my bankroll showed a loss of $60.
That should be $62.50
Now I see how you do this.
I have booked many $60 Lay6 bets in my lifetime.
This is how it is accomplished in a Nevada casino.
(you can really ask almost any Craps dealer, they will know)
The bet pays exactly $50 on a win. (5 to 6)
this is standard stuff going back to the early 1900s.
so how much is collected from the player before the dealer places the Lay lammer on the wager?
5% of $50 (the possible win)
or $2.50
so the player has actually given the dealer $62.50
I have also had my boxman book that bet knowing the player only has $60 and can not pay the $2.50 vig up front.
it is his game and he can call the shots. (I never had a female box) this is an exception
once the vig is paid, the Lay lammer is placed on the bet and it has action.
I had to look, WinCraps also sets the bet this way on a vig paid upfront.
I make my $60 Lay6 and it shows my total $ at $62.50
just like what happens in a casino.
I would suggest you make this bet at a casino and see exactly how they do it.
Then you can either play it out (only $62.50 cost, they might round that down these days too)
or just take it down.
seeing is believing
added: also do remember if the player decides to take the Lay bet down after already paid the vig,
the vig is also returned along with the total bet.
version 2 shows a $60 Lay6 after I make it, and after the next roll,
but it should have deducted $2.50 from my bankroll and it did not.
You already showed how you do it,
that is not the they way it is done in a casino or even on shufflemaster's Rapid Craps game terminal.
some say PITA
not the Lay bettor
