Newly discovered statistical report
August 16th, 2013 at 5:20:12 PM
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I just found this UNLV statistical analysis of table games:http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/strip_game_mix.pdf
This is a link to it.
I'd wonder why craps was so different than the other table games.
Number of craps tables hasn't changed all that much but the revenue per table seems to have dropped. Will Dice Influencers be saying "I told you"? Or is it that a five dollar table is more absurd than we think.
This is a link to it.
I'd wonder why craps was so different than the other table games.
Number of craps tables hasn't changed all that much but the revenue per table seems to have dropped. Will Dice Influencers be saying "I told you"? Or is it that a five dollar table is more absurd than we think.
August 16th, 2013 at 5:32:56 PM
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Maybe the population has gotten smarter about playing in the middle of the table. Years ago I read where craps tables held more in mid MS as opposed to Tunica and Gulf Coast. The reason given then was dumber players in the mid MS area.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
August 16th, 2013 at 5:54:21 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff
This is a link to it.
"Twenty One (blackjack) has declined in both terms of units and revenue. In 1985, 77% of casino games were blackjack. In 2012 under 51% were.
Craps has declined remarkably as a money maker for casinos. In 1985, it generated more than
28% of all table win. In 2011 it contributed about 9% to total table win.
Roulette has moderately increased both its revenue share and unit share."
Roulette has gone from 6.5% to 10%, while both BJ and
craps have fallen off the cliff. So phooey on all of you who
say roulette is dead as a casino game, its doing better than
BJ and craps in holding its own.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 16th, 2013 at 5:57:45 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 16th, 2013 at 7:23:36 PM
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A lot of the non-gambling club goers that stop off in a casino usually end up at the roulette table. It's easy, non-threatening unlike a bacarrat table (try weaving into a seat with hardcore asian gamblers), and all bets are resolved in one spin. Some of the club guys end up at BJ or craps but the women are at roulette.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
August 16th, 2013 at 7:44:43 PM
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Quote: EvenBob
Craps has declined remarkably as a money maker for casinos.
In 1985, it generated more than 28% of all table win. In 2011 it contributed about 9% to total table win.
So my question is if the number of tables is roughly the same...but there is a whopping decline in what the tables earn the casino... then someone is taking money out of a craps game. You know,,,, winning!!!
How does this happen. The mix of games changes and the square footage changes and other games blossom, but I wonder why a big money maker from the past is now diminished but the tables are pretty much the same and there haven't been any real rule changes other than these All/None/Short/Tall/Whatever bets. Heck, at the El Cortez, I doubt that felt layouts have been replaced in twenty years.
August 16th, 2013 at 7:49:46 PM
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Odd... that may indeed be true. I guess you need only glance around and determine who is drunk and those are the really club going types because the gamblers are only "buzzed" but not truly three sheets to the wind.Quote: djatcSome of the club guys end up at BJ or craps but the women are at roulette.
Yet, many of the computer oriented females do head to the craps tables. Five dollar Bally's craps table was the official location of one of the break out sessions of a Internet Marketing workshop years ago.
August 16th, 2013 at 8:21:30 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff.. then someone is taking money out of a craps game. .
In the casinos where I go the crap tables are
closed most of the time. The one thats open
is usually empty.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 16th, 2013 at 8:38:19 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffSo my question is if the number of tables is roughly the same...but there is a whopping decline in what the tables earn the casino... then someone is taking money out of a craps game. You know,,,, winning!!!
How does this happen. The mix of games changes and the square footage changes and other games blossom, but I wonder why a big money maker from the past is now diminished but the tables are pretty much the same and there haven't been any real rule changes other than these All/None/Short/Tall/Whatever bets. Heck, at the El Cortez, I doubt that felt layouts have been replaced in twenty years.
People like the "Our Fearless Leader" who clearly point out that betting prop bets for "snake eyes", etc. is for people who don't care about money only. Also, with the proliferation of more interesting slot machine options and this society of instant gratification, it's also more feasible that people stay at the tables for less time than they used to, which will also generally lead to lower hold.
Actually clicking on the link, most of the article data just shows that blackjack/craps is losing out to "other games". For blackjack this isn't that surprising, but for craps, see my explanation above. Roulette has stayed steady since there isn't an alternative to steal it yet.
August 16th, 2013 at 9:02:28 PM
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Don't over think it. Craps is a complicated game that
most people don't want to learn. Its time consuming,
confusing, and you have to stand while playing.
Roulette is easy, mindless, and anybody can learn it
in 2min. The old craps players are dying out, soon
it won't be a game most casinos even want because
they can fit 12 slots in the space a craps table takes up.
most people don't want to learn. Its time consuming,
confusing, and you have to stand while playing.
Roulette is easy, mindless, and anybody can learn it
in 2min. The old craps players are dying out, soon
it won't be a game most casinos even want because
they can fit 12 slots in the space a craps table takes up.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 16th, 2013 at 9:15:35 PM
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where I work we are down to three craps tables from 12 in 2004.
get second you pig
August 16th, 2013 at 9:23:45 PM
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Quote: EvenBobDon't over think it. Craps is a complicated game that
most people don't want to learn. Its time consuming,
confusing, and you have to stand while playing.
That's why Craps tables should incorporate a dice game/bet that uses two rolled dice that people are familiar with. Even if one half of the table is a true Craps game and the other half is another game that uses the outcome of two rolled dice.
August 16th, 2013 at 9:27:04 PM
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Quote: ontariodealerwhere I work we are down to three craps tables from 12 in 2004.
And I'll bet 2 of them are closed most of the time.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 16th, 2013 at 9:49:27 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAnd I'll bet 2 of them are closed most of the time.
At least one, that's for sure. 12 sounds extreme though, I don't know if any of the St. Louis casinos have ever had more than 4 craps tables.
Actually looking up data:
Beginning of 2004 - max craps tables in any Missouri casino: 6
Currently: max craps tables in any Missouri casino: 5
The fact they had 12 in 2004 is likely poor management, imo.
August 17th, 2013 at 1:57:26 AM
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>Craps is a complicated game that most people don't want to learn.
>Its time consuming, confusing, and you have to stand while playing.
Now we know the real purpose of world war two.... it taught craps to millions. Some casino types have joked that we need another war to teach the next generation to play. Craps play is declining due to gerontology.
>Roulette is easy, mindless, and anybody can learn it in 2min.
That is true. It snags loyal fans and it snags "the drunken wanderers". Everybody knows it already from Casablanca or some other movie.
>most casinos even want because they can fit 12 slots in the space a craps table takes up
Originally slot machines were undesired additions installed solely to entertain the bimbos that craps players brought with them.
Now its gone the other way. The slot machines are the major draw but the craps tables provide the variety and the feeling of a real casino rather than solely a slot parlor.
Still the fact remains. More money was taken in the old days than now. Why? Is it solely due to fewer gaming hours and fewer gamers? Or are the craps players skimming money somehow?
>Its time consuming, confusing, and you have to stand while playing.
Now we know the real purpose of world war two.... it taught craps to millions. Some casino types have joked that we need another war to teach the next generation to play. Craps play is declining due to gerontology.
>Roulette is easy, mindless, and anybody can learn it in 2min.
That is true. It snags loyal fans and it snags "the drunken wanderers". Everybody knows it already from Casablanca or some other movie.
>most casinos even want because they can fit 12 slots in the space a craps table takes up
Originally slot machines were undesired additions installed solely to entertain the bimbos that craps players brought with them.
Now its gone the other way. The slot machines are the major draw but the craps tables provide the variety and the feeling of a real casino rather than solely a slot parlor.
Still the fact remains. More money was taken in the old days than now. Why? Is it solely due to fewer gaming hours and fewer gamers? Or are the craps players skimming money somehow?
August 17th, 2013 at 2:55:49 AM
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Last edited by: Tanko on Mar 10, 2016
August 17th, 2013 at 10:51:45 AM
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Craps is not a game that is easily learned by playing at the table and having a dealer "help you along". Dealers are too busy to be helping the new player once the table has four or five players per side. Plus, a player will not always trust what a dealer is telling them.
Craps is learned by parents teaching sons/daughters, friends teaching friends, etc. If you don't know someone you can trust to teach you craps, you likely will never learn the game.
It is up to individual casinos to have frequent free lessons sessions right before they open the table for the day and advertise them like crazy. That is if they want to invest in keeping their craps client base maintained, let alone growing. It is a tough proposition as I am not sure the effort is worth the pay off, but that is what it is going to take to keep the game from continuing to shrink in popularity and in the number of tables installed.
Craps is learned by parents teaching sons/daughters, friends teaching friends, etc. If you don't know someone you can trust to teach you craps, you likely will never learn the game.
It is up to individual casinos to have frequent free lessons sessions right before they open the table for the day and advertise them like crazy. That is if they want to invest in keeping their craps client base maintained, let alone growing. It is a tough proposition as I am not sure the effort is worth the pay off, but that is what it is going to take to keep the game from continuing to shrink in popularity and in the number of tables installed.
August 17th, 2013 at 11:57:23 AM
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I noticed that the report is limited to the Strip - and there was no attempt to show any correlation between the decline in blackjack and the changeover from 3-2 to 6-5, especially in single-deck and double-deck. Why do I have a feeling that two of the most frequently asked questions in Strip casinos are, "Where is the single/double-deck blackjack where blackjack pays 3-2?" and "In that case, where do I board the bus to downtown?".
If people were that interested in games where every roll of the dice produced a result, then Sic Bo would be far more popular than it is now. (Maybe people are turned off by the name? How about calling it by its English name, Grand Hazard, or a name like Super Craps?)
Quote: allinriverkingThat's why Craps tables should incorporate a dice game/bet that uses two rolled dice that people are familiar with. Even if one half of the table is a true Craps game and the other half is another game that uses the outcome of two rolled dice.
If people were that interested in games where every roll of the dice produced a result, then Sic Bo would be far more popular than it is now. (Maybe people are turned off by the name? How about calling it by its English name, Grand Hazard, or a name like Super Craps?)
August 17th, 2013 at 1:22:13 PM
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Quote: ParadigmCraps is not a game that is easily learned .
I've been around craps since I started going to
Vegas in 76. I never learned to play because
there are too many other games that are so
much easier. Plus in the 70's it was mostly old
farts in their 40's and 50's and I was 25 or so.
Those old guys who kept it going are gone now,
so craps is barely holding on.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 17th, 2013 at 7:45:09 PM
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The decline on the Strip is not do to Advanced play or "magic" Shooters... It merely shows that there are more casinos across the country and players don't have to go to vegas to play.
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
August 17th, 2013 at 7:54:34 PM
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Nobody saw the Indian casino explosion coming. 7 years
ago I had one casino within a comfortable driving distance.
Now there are 6. And more are planned.
ago I had one casino within a comfortable driving distance.
Now there are 6. And more are planned.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 17th, 2013 at 8:24:14 PM
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Quote: EvenBobNobody saw the Indian casino explosion coming. 7 years
ago I had one casino within a comfortable driving distance.
Now there are 6. And more are planned.
Exactly...
The players have spread out now. Instead of saving and making a few trips to the desert, they are making their deposits locally, and more frequently.
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
August 18th, 2013 at 3:38:04 AM
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Note though that places like Maryland Live fought hard to get table games; as far as Craps goes, they really seemed to feel they hadn't "arrived" until they got those tables in
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 18th, 2013 at 4:55:23 AM
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Still doesn't answer the original point about craps hold. Surely people aren't playing craps in Ohio but getting on a plane to play BJ on the strip!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
August 18th, 2013 at 8:20:06 AM
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If forced to guess, I would say the casinos that only had one-two Craps tables then, and only have one-two Craps tables now play a factor. Even with the decline in revenue, I doubt a house would remove its only Craps table, or one of only two.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 18th, 2013 at 9:55:15 AM
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Quote: DeMangoStill doesn't answer the original point about craps hold. Surely people aren't playing craps in Ohio but getting on a plane to play BJ on the strip!
But they are playing Craps in Ohio... There are several Horseshoe casinos, one in Cleveland and Cincinnati. As a young player, my urge to go west to play has become less and less. I receive better comps, get to experience more of the country (i.e local famous diners), and get better service.
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
August 18th, 2013 at 12:41:34 PM
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You also get better odds (100x) than in Vegas.Quote: TheWolf713But they are playing Craps in Ohio... There are several Horseshoe casinos ... I receive better comps, get to experience more of the country (i.e local famous diners), and get better service.
I think these Player Associations may soon play a major role. I do not mean the casino' player clubs but the regional and national firms that purport to be a source of information to all gamblers. What these firms will soon be actually delivering are well trained gamblers.
The major point is still a puzzle though. ... why are craps tables making less money when it still takes four crewmen and the tables are still banked at fairly low amounts.
Its hard to do a precise accounting. I'm sure casinos run their "darn near break-even" Bingo rooms with a comparison between prominent slot machines near the Bingo room and equivalent slot machines elsewhere on the floor. The "Return" on slot machines that is attributable to Players who only play during Even Hours is really part of the Bingo room's return on investment.
Perhaps there is something similar in craps?
August 18th, 2013 at 3:05:13 PM
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I think the answer to this is way easier than people think.
There is never a lack of players at a $5 craps table. But there certainly is a lack of $5 tables, especially on the strip.
The casinos don't want to open a $5 table, but those $5 players will lose their money someplace, but not at a $10 craps table.
The 2x or 3-4-5x odds is not really a factor, since that is only material to the die hard player, and we are already playing anyway.
Educating more people on how to play is another area that is sorely needed. The problem is, the casino that offers classes, will offer them early in the morning, and who bothers to show up? Only someone who desperately wants to learn.
What the casino needs to do, is create a 10 minute video, and put it near the craps pit, WHEN THE TABLES are full of players yelling and screaming.
A big sign over the video bank says, "Want to join the FUN? Learn to play in 10 minutes here."
Or put a small tub in and have one dealer explain the game, BUT do it during prime hours, when people are hearing the excitement.
There is never a lack of players at a $5 craps table. But there certainly is a lack of $5 tables, especially on the strip.
The casinos don't want to open a $5 table, but those $5 players will lose their money someplace, but not at a $10 craps table.
The 2x or 3-4-5x odds is not really a factor, since that is only material to the die hard player, and we are already playing anyway.
Educating more people on how to play is another area that is sorely needed. The problem is, the casino that offers classes, will offer them early in the morning, and who bothers to show up? Only someone who desperately wants to learn.
What the casino needs to do, is create a 10 minute video, and put it near the craps pit, WHEN THE TABLES are full of players yelling and screaming.
A big sign over the video bank says, "Want to join the FUN? Learn to play in 10 minutes here."
Or put a small tub in and have one dealer explain the game, BUT do it during prime hours, when people are hearing the excitement.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
August 18th, 2013 at 5:31:34 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsI think the answer to this is way easier than people think.
There is never a lack of players at a $5 craps table. But there certainly is a lack of $5 tables, especially on the strip.
The casinos don't want to open a $5 table, but those $5 players will lose their money someplace, but not at a $10 craps table.
The 2x or 3-4-5x odds is not really a factor, since that is only material to the die hard player, and we are already playing anyway.
Educating more people on how to play is another area that is sorely needed. The problem is, the casino that offers classes, will offer them early in the morning, and who bothers to show up? Only someone who desperately wants to learn.
What the casino needs to do, is create a 10 minute video, and put it near the craps pit, WHEN THE TABLES are full of players yelling and screaming.
A big sign over the video bank says, "Want to join the FUN? Learn to play in 10 minutes here."
Or put a small tub in and have one dealer explain the game, BUT do it during prime hours, when people are hearing the excitement.
I believe that is a great idea.
And even if they don't figure that out, most patrons migrate to the game after exhausting themselves on the other tables. The trend will go back up
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
August 18th, 2013 at 5:35:21 PM
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I remember when I first went to Vegas some casinos had training hours (typically 7pm) on a different game each day, so everyone had a chance to learn. In the UK, the reason Craps was dying out is because the people who know the game were dying out, literally, although there are now a few newer casinos putting in tables and presumably teaching newbies.
I'm guessing in the US, Roulette is growing slightly because there are more single-zero tables appearing (in the UK Roulette is the biggest game). However note the improvement in "other games" - probably three-card-poker is adding quite a bit to that as well as all the poker variants that are around. People who play card-based table games now have more games to play, so perhaps, rather like a split vote in an election, Blackjack is taking a hit.
In the UK about 25 years ago there was Roulette and Blackjack. Larger casinos might have a Punto Banco table and some casinos had a dice table - but that was it. Three-card-poker was only initially found on the Isle Of Man. Gradually a few new allowed games appeared (e.g. Casino Stud Poker), until the law was changed. Today any reasonable game is allowed, and there probably are over 50 games (see http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/index.html for full list).
I'm guessing in the US, Roulette is growing slightly because there are more single-zero tables appearing (in the UK Roulette is the biggest game). However note the improvement in "other games" - probably three-card-poker is adding quite a bit to that as well as all the poker variants that are around. People who play card-based table games now have more games to play, so perhaps, rather like a split vote in an election, Blackjack is taking a hit.
In the UK about 25 years ago there was Roulette and Blackjack. Larger casinos might have a Punto Banco table and some casinos had a dice table - but that was it. Three-card-poker was only initially found on the Isle Of Man. Gradually a few new allowed games appeared (e.g. Casino Stud Poker), until the law was changed. Today any reasonable game is allowed, and there probably are over 50 games (see http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/index.html for full list).
August 31st, 2013 at 8:54:19 PM
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Quote: RaleighCraps
What the casino needs to do, is create a 10 minute video, and put it near the craps pit, WHEN THE TABLES are full of players yelling and screaming.
A big sign over the video bank says, "Want to join the FUN? Learn to play in 10 minutes here."
The place to play the video is on the first channel that automatically shows up when you turn on the TV back in your room at night - instead of the same old super-boring eating and shopping stuff.
