Definition of "push" vs "no action")
I think I know what a losing event is. At one time
I thought I knew what a push event was, but now I'm not sure.
Can someone properly define a:
Push event
Tie (same as a push, right?)
No action event
I assume these terms are relative to the particular bet that is being discussed.
But, what is making the first point relative to a Fire Bet, or rolling a 2 relative to a Small, Tall or All bet?
For those situations, I know it is a losing event for the tall bet. (Opps-Wrong!)
But for the fire bet, small and all bets - is it a winning event (no payout at that particular roll)?
Is it a push event (not a losing event and no payout)?
Is it a no action event ?
Is there such a thing as a delayed event?
I thought the simple example of a coin flip would be a way to compare it with there being wins, losses and ties.arallel
If heads I win, tails you lose and lands on an edge we tie (push?)
Then I flipped one and it landed in a floor vent, what is it? A no action event, and another flip will resolve it?
Or a delayed event till the day I renovate and put in a new vent system and in the process find the coin?
That makes me then wonder - is a dice off the table an event, and is it a certain named event?
This game got easier as I learned more. (At first, but now it is confusing....again)
Most of them establish, or are part of, a "contract." I.E. In most cases, you can't take the bet down.
Note that the only push on a craps table is the Don't Bar 12.
Also note that you have one fact wrong. A 2 is not a loser for the Tall bet. Only a 7 loses for those bets.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Also note that you have one fact wrong. A 2 is not a loser for the Tall bet. Only a 7 loses for those bets.
See, I was still confused. Just because it is not one of the required numbers to win doesn't mean it is a losing number...thanks DJ.
Quote: NewToCrapsheads I win, tails you lose
Sounds like something Bugs Bunny would say. lol!
If a DonT Come bet is made and a 12 is rolled, the area gets "thumped" to indicate the contract is over and you can do with that stack of chips whatever you want to. (Yeah, Yeah,,,okay... I know: In Reno, its the "2" not the "12).
If a DontCome bet is made and a six is rolled, some players will call out "no action" and the bet is left as a new DonTCome ... this is a very bad thing to do and that is why the casino lets you do it. Players often feel they are getting a better deal since six and eight are so likely to be made, but they are giving up a bet that is in their favor which is why the dealer will encourage you to do it.
Quote: DJTeddyBearAnd "No action" typically only occurs when a player makes a late bet, or throws in cash to buy in but doesn't make a bet.
So, for me to use the term "no action" is incorrect for a group of rolls which are not winning rolls, but also are not losing rolls?
I want to use the proper terminolgy when explaining the rules of my SOSI Bet (so I don't sound like too much of a rookie).
If "no action" is the wrong term, what would the proper term be (see my thread "Another craps side bet") for what I want to say .
?
Loss- the final losing requirement of a bet occurs, bet is 100% lost.
Push/Tie- Bet sequence is complete without a win or loss occurring, original bet is returned to player. As mentioned a 12 on the don’t pass pushes and you may pick up your bet. I’d also consider any place bet to be a push on any number that isn’t a win or a 7 as you can pick up that bet.
Unresolved (“in play”?)- A bet that follows a sequence that potentially requires more than one roll to win or lose, with some potential intermediate events being neither a win nor loss but not a “push” as defined above. The difference between a push and an unresloved bet is that with a push the bet sequence is over and the player can pick up the bet, re-bet it or even increase it, with an unresolved contract bet once it’s made and the sequence is started it must stay until its resolved. Note: a player can end a don’t bet on any established point by accepting a push from the casino, the term here is “no action” although it’s not the same as the definition for “no action” above. Technically I’d say in that instance the bet is resolved in a push by the player requesting and the casino agreeing to the push (one possible sequence known about the contract before the bet is made) and the player starts a new contract bet if he chooses to leave it on the don’t come bar.
No Action- No bet was ever made. Usually occurs where a player tries to make a bet but the casino refuses to accept the bet. Most commonly occurs when a player tries to bet when dice are in the air or later, also possible because bet is not allowed (under table limit, over table limit, come bet on come-out roll etc., trying to bet fire bet after someone else did and shooter has made 1 point). Because no bet was made the original wager is returned as if nothing happened. Good dealers will clearly and loudly say “no action” ASAP to pre-exempt any argument about payouts.
Dice off the table would also be no action with respect to that “throw” of the dice, one of the requirements of a craps bet is both dice stay on the table and produce a number if this doesn’t happen the throw is a “non-throw”. You can see its no-action because after dice go off the table any bet that is not a contract bet in progress can be picked up. Also with short throws you may hear "no roll" meaning despite the dice being thrown the the result does not count, usually do to a short roll.
Quote: CrazyCanuckWin- The final winning requirement of a bet occurs, player receives > 100% of initial bet.
Loss- the final losing requirement of a bet occurs, bet is 100% lost.
Push/Tie- Bet sequence is complete without a win or loss occurring, original bet is returned to player. As mentioned a 12 on the don’t pass pushes and you may pick up your bet. I’d also consider any place bet to be a push on any number that isn’t a win or a 7 as you can pick up that bet.
Unresolved (“in play”?)- A bet that follows a sequence that potentially requires more than one roll to win or lose, with some potential intermediate events being neither a win nor loss but not a “push” as defined above. The difference between a push and an unresloved bet is that with a push the bet sequence is over and the player can pick up the bet, re-bet it or even increase it, with an unresolved contract bet once it’s made and the sequence is started it must stay until its resolved. Note: a player can end a don’t bet on any established point by accepting a push from the casino, the term here is “no action” although it’s not the same as the definition for “no action” above. Technically I’d say in that instance the bet is resolved in a push by the player requesting and the casino agreeing to the push (one possible sequence known about the contract before the bet is made) and the player starts a new contract bet if he chooses to leave it on the don’t come bar.
No Action- No bet was ever made. Usually occurs where a player tries to make a bet but the casino refuses to accept the bet. Most commonly occurs when a player tries to bet when dice are in the air or later, also possible because bet is not allowed (under table limit, over table limit, come bet on come-out roll etc., trying to bet fire bet after someone else did and shooter has made 1 point). Because no bet was made the original wager is returned as if nothing happened. Good dealers will clearly and loudly say “no action” ASAP to pre-exempt any argument about payouts.
Dice off the table would also be no action with respect to that “throw” of the dice, one of the requirements of a craps bet is both dice stay on the table and produce a number if this doesn’t happen the throw is a “non-throw”. You can see its no-action because after dice go off the table any bet that is not a contract bet in progress can be picked up. Also with short throws you may hear "no roll" meaning despite the dice being thrown the the result does not count, usually do to a short roll.
Very clearly written, do you have a side job at wikipedia?
Quote: CrazyCanuckNo Action- No bet was ever made. Usually occurs where a player tries to make a bet but the casino refuses to accept the bet. Most commonly occurs when a player tries to bet when dice are in the air or later, also possible because bet is not allowed (under table limit, over table limit, come bet on come-out roll etc., trying to bet fire bet after someone else did and shooter has made 1 point).
Has anybody actually managed to 'sneak' a come bet through during come out? How do they deal with it-- move it to pass, move it to come, or would they actually refuse it, even if the bettor didn't have pass? (Courtesy of one of my local places using a non-standard layout, I tend to absentmindedly drop my DCs into the DP bar...)
Quote: VenthusHas anybody actually managed to 'sneak' a come bet through during come out? How do they deal with it-- move it to pass, move it to come, or would they actually refuse it, even if the bettor didn't have pass?)
On the rare occasions I've seen this happen, the dealer/box just declared No Action.
No action means the bet was not accepted by the House (as in a late bet at a Craps table).
Quote: 98ClubsA push is generally speaking, a live bet that ties the Dealer (as in Blackjack).
That definition made a specific case come to mind-- is passing (as opposed to failing) a 1-for-1 a win or a push?
I'd be more specific and say that a push is a registered bet that is resolved without money (or currency equivalent) changing hands.
In something like VP, because you paid in advance, a 1-for-1 is a win, despite the end result being the same. A push would be... nonexistent, I guess? Similarly, you can win with a net less on anything that has a fractional payback.
(There's also the term "with action"; I think that refers to a bet on a baseball game where the bet stands even if the starting pitcher for your team isn't the one previously announced as starting.)
Quote: ThatDonGuy"no action"...where it means that the bet was called off
I agree. The terms "No action" and "No bet" seem pretty much interchangeable.
Quote: Venthus
In something like VP, because you paid in advance, a 1-for-1 is a win, despite the end result being the same. A push would be... nonexistent, I guess? Similarly, you can win with a net less on anything that has a fractional payback.
That's exactly right, because the pays are on a, "For One," basis. That's why a $0.01 denom slot machine with a Max Bet of $1.50 can, for example, say you won, "35 Credits," when the end result is actually that you have $1.15 less than when you made the spin.
Quote: VenthusThat definition made a specific case come to mind-- is passing (as opposed to failing) a 1-for-1 a win or a push?
I'd be more specific and say that a push is a registered bet that is resolved without money (or currency equivalent) changing hands.
In something like VP, because you paid in advance, a 1-for-1 is a win, despite the end result being the same. A push would be... nonexistent, I guess? Similarly, you can win with a net less on anything that has a fractional payback.
The difference here is splitting hairs. I’d call any bet where after the betting sequence is resolved and you have the same amount of money as you did at the start, and can pick up the bet, a push. It’s simply the marketing difference between bets paying “for” or “to”. VP paytables could easily be re-written with “to” payouts and the lowest payout would read “push” instead of 1-for-1. It also has to do with how your balance is displayed, in VP (and other electronic games) your bet is deducted from your balance when you bet and so a push increases your balance (back to your original), whereas in table games your bet is left on the felt until resolved, but the money isn’t any more yours than the money you can win if you get a winner in VP. If you’ve ever played an electronic version of craps and you bet your last $5 on the don’t your balance would show $0, if a 12 is rolled your balance would then show $5 as the push returns $5 to your stack. However in between time of placing the bet and the resolve that money is gone from your stack just like in VP. So I wouldn't consider a 1-to-1 win a "win" I'd consider it a push.
Quote: Mission146That's exactly right, because the pays are on a, "For One," basis. That's why a $0.01 denom slot machine with a Max Bet of $1.50 can, for example, say you won, "35 Credits," when the end result is actually that you have $1.15 less than when you made the spin.
This is not so much a partial win as it is a single small win not making up for many other losses you experience on a particular spin. If a player bets 30 lines x 5 credits a line their total bet is 150 but more accurately they have 30-5 credit wagers, if 29 wagers lose and 1 wager wins 45 credits then the players net result that roll is 150-45 = 105 credit loss. When added together it’s a partial win but when seen as separate bets its 1 win with 29 losses. This is the same as having multiple passline/come bets and a new come bet and a 7 coming. Even though the player lost (say) $250 and only won $25 on the last come bet the last come bet was still a “full win”, it’s only when combined with all the other bets that a new loss occurs.
Quote: CrazyCanuck
This is not so much a partial win as it is a single small win not making up for many other losses you experience on a particular spin. If a player bets 30 lines x 5 credits a line their total bet is 150 but more accurately they have 30-5 credit wagers, if 29 wagers lose and 1 wager wins 45 credits then the players net result that roll is 150-45 = 105 credit loss. When added together it’s a partial win but when seen as separate bets its 1 win with 29 losses. This is the same as having multiple passline/come bets and a new come bet and a 7 coming. Even though the player lost (say) $250 and only won $25 on the last come bet the last come bet was still a “full win”, it’s only when combined with all the other bets that a new loss occurs.
I would say that your position is largely correct, but that it's kind of splitting hairs at that point. If those hairs are to be split, then I would tend to disagree somewhat with the Craps analogy because those are completely separate (i.e. not required) bets that just happen to get resolved at the same time with one roll of the dice.
Ultimately, with those slot machines in which you can specifically select how many lines and credits you wish to bet per line, then I would tend to agree with the above statement. However, many slot machines are such that they allow you to choose between betting certain fixed amounts. For example, a $0.01/Denom Quick Hits Platinum machine will allow you to bet either 30, 60, 90, 120 or 150 credits. In the case of a machine such as that, then I tend to agree more with what I had said about not winning anything overall because you must bet x amount of lines.
Quote: Mission146I would say that your position is largely correct, but that it's kind of splitting hairs at that point. If those hairs are to be split, then I would tend to disagree somewhat with the Craps analogy because those are completely separate (i.e. not required) bets that just happen to get resolved at the same time with one roll of the dice.
Ultimately, with those slot machines in which you can specifically select how many lines and credits you wish to bet per line, then I would tend to agree with the above statement. However, many slot machines are such that they allow you to choose between betting certain fixed amounts. For example, a $0.01/Denom Quick Hits Platinum machine will allow you to bet either 30, 60, 90, 120 or 150 credits. In the case of a machine such as that, then I tend to agree more with what I had said about not winning anything overall because you must bet x amount of lines.
Good points. Admittedly I have extremely limited experiences with slot machines. The few I have seen you can select between 1, 3, 5, 20 etc. lines and then 1, 5, 20 etc. credits. I suppose if you are forced to bet say a minimum of 60 credits and can win a bet of 20 credits then it would be best defined as a “partial win” (optimist) or “partial loss” (pessimist). Such an outcome is not really possible in a table game, in fact I can’t think of a single bet that may result in a “partial loss” in table games except maybe surrender, which could be considered a partial loss.
Quote: CrazyCanuckGood points. Admittedly I have extremely limited experiences with slot machines. The few I have seen you can select between 1, 3, 5, 20 etc. lines and then 1, 5, 20 etc. credits. I suppose if you are forced to bet say a minimum of 60 credits and can win a bet of 20 credits then it would be best defined as a “partial win” (optimist) or “partial loss” (pessimist). Such an outcome is not really possible in a table game, in fact I can’t think of a single bet that may result in a “partial loss” in table games except maybe surrender, which could be considered a partial loss.
I tend to take the pessimistic view, a, "Win," is when the amount of money returned exceeds the amount of money bet. I can't think of such a table game, either, but I wouldn't consider a surrender a loss because the player is giving up. (i.e. the player did not lose at the time the decision is made and could still win)
Quote: Mission146I tend to take the pessimistic view, a, "Win," is when the amount of money returned exceeds the amount of money bet. I can't think of such a table game, either, but I wouldn't consider a surrender a loss because the player is giving up. (i.e. the player did not lose at the time the decision is made and could still win)
How about the roulette "en prison" rule?
Quote: mickeycrimmIn the dice game, four-five-six, played with three dice, there are 216 possible combinations. By the math only 108 combinations are action. The rest were called "no action." The action rolls were 4-5-6 or 1-2-3, three of a kind, or any pair. The rest of the combinations, rolls like 1-5-6, 2-3-5, etc. were called "no action." Four-five-six was a bigtime gambling game during the pipeline days in Alaska. And I wish I knew then what I know now about the mathematics of dice throws now.
It seems that versions of this game pop up at G2E every few years, often called "cee-lo" or some variant. I've done several math reports for clients on different versions. One fellow even claimed to have a patent on it, but cee-lo actually has its roots in an ancient Chinese dice game named "sz' 'ng luk" (literally, "four, five, six," which is where the English name came from).
http://gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/szngluk.html
Rule? Nah.Quote: wudgedHow about the roulette "en prison" rule?
But the terminology certainly applies...
Quote: MathExtremistIt seems that versions of this game pop up at G2E every few years, often called "cee-lo" or some variant. I've done several math reports for clients on different versions. One fellow even claimed to have a patent on it, but cee-lo actually has its roots in an ancient Chinese dice game named "sz' 'ng luk" (literally, "four, five, six," which is where the English name came from).
http://gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/szngluk.html
Yes, MathExtremist, this is the game we played in the bars around Alaska. I couldn't tell you how many times I made a bunch of money on the pool table but left the bar flat ass broke because of four-five-six. Of, course I didn't know anything about the math in those days. We played ring game style. When we started a game we would all roll the dice to determine the first banker. Whoever rolled the most points got to be the first banker. The banker would then throw an amount of money on the bar. The first fader could take all or part of the bet. If he didn't take all of the bet then the second fader could take all or part of what was left. And so on.
The banker would take the cup and roll the dice. If he rolled a four-five-six, three of a kind, or a pair and the odd die is a six, then he automatically won. If he rolled a one-two-three, or a pair and the odd die is a one, then he automatically lost. If he rolled a pair and the odd die is a two, three, four, or five, then that was his point. Let's say he made a four. The dice would then go to the first fader. The fader could win by rolling a four-five-six, a three of a kind, or a pair with the odd die being either a five or a six. If he rolled a pair and a four then it was a push. If he rolled a one-two-three, or a pair and the odd die is a one, two or three, then he lost. Then the next fader would roll to try and beat the four. And so on.
The first player to roll a three of a kind got to be the next banker. If you were the banker, and you were winning, you couldn't remove any of the money from the bank, but you had the option of passing the dice before the next come out roll.
Back then we just thought the game was all luck. But I now know something about the math. It looks to me like the banker has the advantage because he gets to roll first and has six more combinations (three of a kind) to automatically win than to automatically lose. Since there are only 108 action rolls that should be about a 5.5% advantage.
If I were to play the game today I think my strategy would be something like only making a nominal bet like $10 when I'm the fader. The object would be to fade with low betting amounts until I become the banker. Then when I get the bank throwing down something like $500 down on the bar. Since you can't remove any money from the bank while you are winning I think I would have to pass the dice after doubling or tripling up, then go back to being a $10 fader, trying to win the bank back again. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Quote: NewToCrapsIf heads I win, tails you lose and lands on an edge we tie (push?)
You can't the "tie" part on the t-shirt.
Quote: VenthusThat definition made a specific case come to mind-- is passing (as opposed to failing) a 1-for-1 a win or a push?
I'd be more specific and say that a push is a registered bet that is resolved without money (or currency equivalent) changing hands.
In something like VP, because you paid in advance, a 1-for-1 is a win, despite the end result being the same. A push would be... nonexistent, I guess? Similarly, you can win with a net less on anything that has a fractional payback.
Look at the case of Video Poker JoB. Money DOES change hands... You ---> Machine ---> You.. In this case one has a fancy tie called 1 FOR 1. Its the exact same in Blackjack with a tie at say 19-19. You ---> Table ---> You, it just that You decide to keep the bet there for the next hand. A transaction has occured. In Video Poker either A.) the coins are returned, or B.) held by the machine until You release them (notwithstanding TITO).
Again, the major difference between a push and No Action is the viability of the bet placed- live or dead.
Slot machines are the Devil's definition of a win. Yes, you won 45 Credits, you also lost 105. Its still a loss, just not a full loss. And it certainly is not a win for profit upon the original wager. I equate this to The Unemployment % announced by the gummint. It does not include those that have abandoned all hope, or never collect Unemployment comp. The object is to paint a positive spin on an otherwise negative outcome (dare we EVER have a negative IMAGE or PERCEPTION !, and damn the tangible evidence !)
Quote: pacomartin
You can't the "tie" part on the t-shirt.
Maybe put on the inside ?
(I've only seen a tie a few times, and it makes sense that you don't usually see the inside of a tee shirt, also)
