Trampoline Tables!!!

After talking with petroglyph on the forum a couple of weeks ago, I decided to make another practice rig with a thicker piece of Volara foam... It TURNED MY TABLE INTO A TRAMPOLINE!!! LOL


There is absolutely no table in my area with this kind of bounce, but I just wanted to ask the forum has anyone played on a table that had a significantly different bounce than our normal tables? And how did you fair? What are your thoughts?

The most ideal type of bounce is none at all. Imagine throwing dice into a pit of sand that is smoothed out to be flat after each roll. That is ideal.

If you can visually imagine that, it helps. You can physically count the total absolute degrees of rotation of each cube AFTER it hits the felt and measure that as representing the amount of randomness for post-initial impact.

If your initial impact is already 100% random, less bounce doesn't help.

But if you have an initial impact that has control, you need an average of at least 180 degrees of total rotation before randomness can be achieved. With less than 180' of randomness post-impact, not all faces are attainable relative to the initial impact orientation.

In general, the more the rotation (total degrees of die rotation after initial impact) the more randomness you can expect.

The total amount of bounce (height) is not as important as the total amount of rotation after initial impact.

I hope this helps.

I would also like to point out I hesitated to give you any response at all after your rude comments on a previous thread where you used the word "futility" and other words to describe the work that I was doing.

IE: In the future, you might make your point without being so rude.

OH MY GOD... What would he have done if you chose to not reply because he was rude to you? Nobody else could have answered. Thank you for your presence Oh Masterful One.

On a side note, he did not even bring up Dice Control or Influence in his question. He asked about the table and if anyone has experience playing on bouncier tables. You turned it into some sort of control issue again and didn't even reply to his question.

To answer your question Wolf, I've never noticed any difference from any of the tables I've played on in Las Vegas or Laughlin. I'm just a normal recreational player and what little difference there probably is in the bounce at each table is not noticable and irrelivent to me.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

OH MY GOD... What would he have done if you chose to not reply because he was rude to you? Nobody else could have answered. Thank you for your presence Oh Masterful One.

On a side note, he did not even bring up Dice Control or Influence in his question. He asked about the table and if anyone has experience playing on bouncier tables. You turned it into some sort of control issue again and didn't even reply to his question.

To answer your question Wolf, I've never noticed any difference from any of the tables I've played on in Las Vegas or Laughlin. I'm just a normal recreational player and what little difference there probably is in the bounce at each table is not noticable and irrelivent to me.

ZCore13

Sorry I failed to realize the question had nothing to do with the possibility for achieving a controlled shot.

Let me give an answer now that I understand what you're saying. Yeah, uhm, you might have the dice bounce off the table more often, and it will save you money because you will lose more slowly. How's that for a WOV/Zcore approved answer?

To the original poster, I am sorry that I didn't realize you only built a practice table at home to figure out the effect of a bouncier table on your luck and rate of loss.

If you want the best chance for good luck, the bouncier the better!!!! And that advice works for the ladies out there too!

Thanks Zcore for understanding that it wasn't a DI question. And thank you Ahigh for being... Ahigh. I use a real table (just as you do) to practice on as well and I do build rigs... I just wanted to try a thicker foam and wanted to get input from other players... I have a control, and I was trying to ask for a few independent variables... Like.... A experiment should have... I mean No offense..

Thanks for your reply

Quote: TheWolf713

Thanks Zcore for understanding that it wasn't a DI question. And thank you Ahigh for being... Ahigh. I use a real table (just as you do) to practice on as well and I do build rigs... I just wanted to try a thicker foam and wanted to get input from other players... I have a control, and I was trying to ask for a few independent variables... Like.... A experiment should have... I mean No offense..

I didn't think you meant to offend me, and that's precisely why I mentioned it to you that you came across as rude. Maybe it was the word "futile" that bothered me.

Sorry I can't relate to doing experiments on a table that's more bouncy or even "practicing" if you aren't looking into the possibility of improving your outcomes.

But as an expert of what is futile as it relates to throwing dice and practicing, maybe it's just what you are into, I guess.

I've been considering purchasing a practice rig but I haven't as of yet. I haven't decided what I want to go with for sure but I know I don't want to build one with the price of the pyramid material there is no way I could build it and save money. Would you have a suggestion on what to buy? The bounce has been one of my concerns with buying a practice rig.

The tables that I have played in Tunica seemed pretty bouncy. If you throwed the dice very hard at all they would clear the back rail on the bounce and fly off of the table. I read that the tables at Horseshoe are not as bouncy but I haven't played on them yet so I can't really say.

Quote: TheWolf713

I just wanted to ask the forum has anyone played on a table that had a significantly different bounce than our normal tables? And how did you fair? What are your thoughts?

Quote: Mikey75

The tables that I have played in Tunica seemed pretty bouncy.

I posted almost three years ago about my experience on a Mississippi table with a strange bounce.

Borgata: By far the bounciest tables out there.

Quote: DeMango

Borgata: By far the bounciest tables out there.

@demango Thanks for the reply....


@mikey75 its pretty easy to build a good small rig.. (something effective that won't take up space...) I'll pm the specs

Quote: TheWolf713

@mikey75 its pretty easy to build a good small rig.. (something effective that won't take up space...) I'll pm the specs

Thanks I appreciate it. The only pyramid backwall that I can find comes in 4 ft sections and is going to be close to $60 with shipping. I can't see needing a full four foot to build a practice rig with. Anywhere you can buy a smaller amount any cheaper? With tables on eBay selling for around 100 I can't see how I could pay $60 for the backwall material and come out any better than purchasing a premade one. By the time you purchase the materials and the felt you'll have over 100 in building one. If you know where I can get a smaller section of the backwall cheaper I'd love to know.

borgata tables are like supercharged rubber.

not that it has any effect on the game, other than preventing cheating and keeping the pit personnel busy retrieving dice.

Quote: sodawater

borgata tables are like supercharged rubber.

not that it has any effect on the game, other than preventing cheating and keeping the pit personnel busy retrieving dice.

Actually, on decisions per hour, I would say it probably does make a negative inpact for the casino. Maybe Bill Zender will chime in here!

Quote: sodawater

borgata tables are like supercharged rubber.
not that it has any effect on the game, other than preventing cheating and keeping the pit personnel busy retrieving dice.

DeMango hit it right on the head in his quote below!

Quote: sodawater

Actually, on decisions per hour, I would say it probably does make a negative inpact for the casino. Maybe Bill Zender will chime in here!

Casino make their money off rolls per hour, they can’t make money if the dice are on the floor, it’s not your job to pick them up if they are off the table, think about what would happen if your back went out picking the dice up, for the casino.


If you are still working, who is going to pay your bills when you’re out of work, because you pulled your back when you bent down to pick up the dice? There are some players that love these type of tables, so the casinos are just killing themselves.
The schools even teach how to beat these tables!

These tables came about because of all the fiction that is written about being a DI’s. Where you have writers,.. writing about there great rolls like 26,..8’s in 28 rolls of the dice. Or this real winner,. an SRR of 28. Or how about this one where the great fiction writer claimed to have rolled these hands, he wrote that there were 18 hands and here is what he said he rolled.
8, 12, 10, 4, 27, 18, 41, 21, 9, 30, 40, 39, 6, 5, 32, 45, 32, and 17. Now for the funny part he also claimed that there were players walking away from the table!

Casinos have the money to buy these books that our great fiction writers are writing, and they read these boards. Most of these casinos are now run by someone that never dealt the game of craps, and now sweat the money so bad that they will do anything to try and stop what they perceive as a threat to craps.

Bill Zender has said in interviews that the casinos didn’t have to worry about anyone setting the dice, that in fact it was good for their business. That the DI’s made the casinos money thinking they could beat the game of craps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5vgKkFUXA

There have been some casinos around Vegas that have taking all the foam off the tables and made their tables like they use to be, because they realized they were losing money when the dice were on the floor!

..

I can't keep the dice on the table at casino royale. One night, after about three tosses in a row that bounced off the table, I started barely getting them to the wall. Stickman started warning me right away to throw them harder.

Not an influencer, I thought, just trying not to get annoyed by another no decision.

They better be careful or I'll take my low stakes game down the strip to.... nevermind.

I played at Casino Royale today, and I will tell you they are among the bounciest tables in Vegas. You can't blame them having such low edges for a $3 table. Nothing else in Vegas has such a low edge without having big bankroll requirements.

I like to gamble just like anybody else, and I absolutely count this is a lucky session. I won $400 in just three rolls with no more than $30 on any bet. In every case I took everything down before rolling the seven, and my last roll, I passed the dice before finishing the roll without having any come bets left.

But it was absolutely 100% luck with the crazy bounce at this place.

That's good to hear... Takes discipline to take the money down... If more players would realize that the money they are risking for a few more rips is already sitting on the table, they would do better..

Thanks for sharing..

-TheWolf713

I've never had a table that I thought was extremely bouncy. I've been on tables that I thought were extremely hard as if the felt was as thin as possible. I'm not sure how it affected the rolls though. The energy of the roll has to go somewhere. If it is not making the dice fly up, then I assume it is making them travel farther and bounce off a wall harder.

I think it was in Colorado that I had a table where you could press on the felt and it would give a 1/4inch at least. They did bounce higher it seemed, but nothing extreme from my point of view.

If you run into these types of bouncy tables out there. I think the very least we can do as player's is to bounce at least one off the table on purpose.
More if it feels good.

Quote: Ahigh

I played at Casino Royale today, and I will tell you they are among the bounciest tables in Vegas. You can't blame them having such low edges for a $3 table. Nothing else in Vegas has such a low edge without having big bankroll requirements.
.

I don't understand the relationship between the low/high edge and the big bankroll (and min wager) requirements?

According to Ahigh's videos, a bouncy table is preferable so that you can get the dice above the rubber pyramids when you hit the back wall.

Evidently this is what some of the dice schools are teaching also. If you look at Heavy's Axis Power craps video, a lot of his tosses bounce over pyramids on to the flat part at the top of the rubbers.

Quote: Bohemian

According to Ahigh's videos, a bouncy table is preferable so that you can get the dice above the rubber pyramids when you hit the back wall.

Evidently this is what some of the dice schools are teaching also. If you look at Heavy's Axis Power craps video, a lot of his tosses bounce over pyramids on to the flat part at the top of the rubbers.

And the landing? A flush hit on flat rubber then hops/drops back down on the felt all the time maintaining a certain stature or axis?

Hopefully I'm not hijacking the thread, but there are other ramifications of having a non-bouncy table as well. The dice get more banged up on a table with a harder surface. Right now, the western-most table at the Silverton has a very hard surface and it does not bounce much at all. The sound is totally different, as is the bounce. There are variations of different types of bounciness on tables, and quite a few of them at that. There is a common type of padding that goes under a felt, and some places will put a new felt over an old felt. Triple felts gets yet another result as does no padding. That four different types of bounce characteristics without even getting into different type of materials or wood. The tables at Sunset Station have MDF instead of plywood underneath them. MDF is very rare (and a sign of a very inexpensive and/or custom table [EG: from a carpenter on craigslist]) that may take some getting used to. I have no idea myself which types of bounce are theoretically more exploitable than others, but bounce is a very critical element for any shot, and you have to practice to get enough samples to have feedback on how you're doing.

The casinos are likely best to just keep changing their bounce and that's what they generally do (just not really frequently).

The early days of the MGM when I was there had the bounciest tables I ever saw. The dice routinely bounced off the table and when they stayed on the table they bounced all around. Had a very bad session on the right side.... felt stupid - given all the crazy bounces should have played the dark side.