Other than CR, no other casino in Vegas has 100x?
CR is the only 100x now. Sam's town is still 20x. Most places are 10x or lower.
Red Rock recently went from 345x to 10x, otherwise the trend has been to pull back the max odds and even the pay on 12 in the field (EG: at LVH and Cosmopolitan last year).
Quote: AhighCR is the only 100x now. Sam's town is still 20x. Most places are 10x or lower.
Main Street Station is 20x if that's relevant...
Quote: AhighRiviera pulled the plug on 1000x a long time ago.
Didn't know that.
It happened too late for a buddy of mine who blew $50k making what he called a "dream bet with no house advantage."
Quote: AlanMendelsonDidn't know that.
It happened too late for a buddy of mine who blew $50k making what he called a "dream bet with no house advantage."
There was no house advantage by the math anyway. That much is for certain.
We used to have a guy named Harley on here who got nuked.
There is no such thing as a single perfect die in the real world. When a bet has a zero edge on the math, 100% the edge comes from the dice. Just because you or even the house doesn't know how the dice might be biased, doesn't mean that they are not.
Even a theoretically unbiased die is only unbiased for the first toss. Then it is deformed, and therefore biased.
Quote: AhighEven a theoretically unbiased die is only unbiased for the first toss. Then it is deformed, and therefore biased.
To the point of significance? No.
Quote: tringlomaneTo the point of significance? No.
When the house edge is zero, the ONLY thing of significance to the casino's advantage is the die.
Some might argue that 0.42% edge per roll is not "significant."
A zero house edge in the math is absolutely insignificant.
A deformed corner from a die smashing into the mirror is significant for a bet that has a zero edge.
So are dice that have been previously profiled and reintroduced to the table to obtain a desired edge. Not an accusation of any casino, just a fact.
The fact that people cannot or refuse to understand this very simple fact while also concluding that an edge per roll of 0.00029 from taking 20x odds is enough to prevent you from ever winning the game in the long run is quite amusing to me.
I just generated 100,000 random rolls and entered the face outcomes to a spreadsheet to show what the actual house edge would be for those face weights.
Here's the edges for the free bets with randomly generated numbers for 100,000 throws (a lifetime of throws for most players!)
-0.000535296 -0.000594496 -0.000398067 0.000150692 0.000432602 0.000536183
Now compare those edges to 0.00029 that you get for combined edge for 20x odds.
And what is more significant? The edge from 100,000 randomly generated samples on a bet that is supposed to be free? Or the edge from a lifetime of random data? This is all fairly generated random data at a lifetimes worth of samples and it's in the ballpark of mattering as much as having 1/21th of your bets on the passline.
Now have some unfair dice in there with more than a normal amount of a particular face (EG: six and one), and these numbers get bigger pretty damn quickly.
So just curious on the guys who lost at Riviera's 1000x table, was it on the do or the don't? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody took the casino on the don't before they had to shut it all down. But I have only heard stories of people losing more than they expected.
I lost $1600 in 15 minutes the only time I went in there. That was a big loss for me too. Over betting your bankroll can be costly! But so can making false assumptions about how fair the game is that they were running. Now I have no idea, but even fair dice for an entire lifetime of throws is no different than 20x in terms of what you're actually going to expect to get in terms of "fairness."
Quote: AhighWhen the house edge is zero, the ONLY thing of significance to the casino's advantage is the die.
Some might argue that 0.42% edge per roll is not "significant."
A zero house edge in the math is absolutely insignificant.
A deformed corner from a die smashing into the mirror is significant for a bet that has a zero edge.
So are dice that have been previously profiled and reintroduced to the table to obtain a desired edge. Not an accusation of any casino, just a fact.
The fact that people cannot or refuse to understand this very simple fact while also concluding that an edge per roll of 0.00029 from taking 20x odds is enough to prevent you from ever winning the game in the long run is quite amusing to me.
this is one of the least intelligent posts i have ever read.
Quote: sodawaterthis is one of the least intelligent posts i have ever read.
This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read. Posts are not intelligent. They don't even think.
I think what you want to say is that the person MAKING the post isn't intelligent. But there is a rule against saying that, so you accuse the post of not being ... intelligent?
Well, that's very smart of you. At least you can't be banned for calling a post stupid.
Here's what I think about your posts, though: they're terribly thought out, often wrong, and personal in nature. Almost as if the person making the post was grinding an axe in a matter of speaking.
Quote: klimate10Wow!
Guys, this is ridiculous!
Now that is quality entertainment.
Quote: sodawaterthis is one of the least intelligent posts i have ever read.
Agreed. Within a minimal amount of rolls, the biases from deformation of initially unbiased dice will even out. Hence, I pointed it out that it is insignificant. Deformations only matter if they are consistently placed on certain portions of the dice. In normal play, this is terribly unlikely to happen unless ploppies all of a sudden toss the dice in a similar set AND throw the dice in the exact same physical manner, which means, they would be able to throw specific numbers with ridiculous accuracy.
Quote: tringlomaneAgreed. Within a minimal amount of rolls, the biases from deformation of initially unbiased dice will even out. Hence, I pointed it out that it is insignificant. Deformations only matter if they are consistently placed on certain portions of the dice. In normal play, this is terribly unlikely to happen unless ploppies all of a sudden toss the dice in a similar set AND throw the dice in the exact same physical manner, which means, they would be able to throw specific numbers with ridiculous accuracy.
Disagree. It NEVER evens out to zero. The whole point is that at 20x odds, the edge is about as close to zero as it gets for your entire life more or less.
I'll say it again, but I doubt it will get through to you math guys. The math stops mattering once it gets close ENOUGH to zero. And at the point that the math no longer matters, everything BUT the math begins to matter instead.
You can argue that it's not significant (to you).
But you can't argue that it's not significant (towards the determination of the outcome).
I think that's where you're not understand my points and discounting me as being unintelligent.
This has nothing to do with anything except the fact that just because the math goes to zero doesn't mean that something else doesn't take the place of making the outcome less than perfectly "fair."
The fantasy land, IMO, is thinking that there is much difference to the player for 20x odds and 1000x odds. Any casino offering 1000x odds (especially one like the Riviera) should be approached with extreme caution when it comes to expecting a fair game.
The math is just one tiny (insignificant) piece of the puzzle when it comes to being fair in the domain of odds beyond 20x.
Quote: tringlomaneI am sorry...IF IF IF...the die is UNbiased to START with AND the casino does NOT alter the die in ANY way after this, it will REMAIN SIGNIFICANTLY UNbiased over time! This is ALL that I was trying to argue initially, NOTHING more. If you disagree with this FACT, then I really don't know what to say. If the casino biases the die ahead of time, sure you are absolutely right, but that is NOT what I was trying to argue. I was just pointing out that UNbiased dice don't become SIGNIFICANTLY biased over time from random players throwing them ONE time; if you don't believe this to be TRUE, you seriously need to go to a statistics and/or physics class.
No I do disagree with you, though. The die are not perfectly balanced, and it is significant in my view. I know this is a minority viewpoint and one for which a member was recently nuked, but I can't change my opinion on that.
The dice being used out there are all different from one another. All of them!
Just not being able to tell that doesn't make it not true.
But I can tell. Even the best dice are not perfectly balanced, and that's part of the deal.
You're not going to have anyone come out and say they are using unbalanced dice to their advantage. But that doesn't mean it's not happening either.
I don't want to reopen this whole debate. But free bets should be viewed with more skepticism IMO. Mostly due to the fact that there currently is generally no skepticism at all!
Quote: AhighNo I do disagree with you, though. The die are not perfectly balanced, and it is significant in my view. I know this is a minority viewpoint and one for which a member was recently nuked, but I can't change my opinion on that.
Quote: AhighEven a theoretically unbiased die is only unbiased for the first toss. Then it is deformed, and therefore biased.
This is the exact statement I focused my argument on. IF IF IF...the die is UNbiased to START with AND the casino does NOT alter the die in ANY way after this, it will REMAIN SIGNIFICANTLY UNbiased over time!
If you want to say they are unbalanced to start with, that's a whole other argument that I was never getting into in the first place. If dice are already biased, then results can be shifted in the house's (or the typical player's) favor. I never denied this. Is it significant in most casinos? I doubt it, but I have no way to prove that, so no way I am going to convince anyone over it.
Quote: AhighBut free bets should be viewed with more skepticism IMO. Mostly due to the fact that there currently is generally no skepticism at all!
I agree. It's definitely possible the Riv may have biased the dice for their 1000X odds promo to hurt the side that wagered more. But if that was the case, I doubt they got rid of the promo unless they thought they were going to get caught.
This whole topic can easily spiral into the abyss.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhen did Ahigh make the comment "I hate Jews"??
I think it was a joke. There was a "quote" following that that said "I prefer my pass bets with prepubescent girls".
Quote: Ahigh
Even a theoretically unbiased die is only unbiased for the first toss. Then it is deformed, and therefore biased.
Please don't take this thread there too. We've been there.
The casino does not retire dice after each throw for one simple reason, they don't have to. So you take your dice that you have declared "no longer unbiased" and just keep playing with them like everyone else. You know if the casino comps you to a hooker she won't be a virgin, so stop complaining about nonsense. The Dice are not pure pristine cubes, the drinks are watered and in short glasses, the hookers are not virgins, .... its a casino that is located in the real world, not in some mathematically pure territory.
Quote: FleaStiffPlease don't take this thread there too. We've been there.
The casino does not retire dice after each throw for one simple reason, they don't have to. So you take your dice that you have declared "no longer unbiased" and just keep playing with them like everyone else. You know if the casino comps you to a hooker she won't be a virgin, so stop complaining about nonsense. The Dice are not pure pristine cubes, the drinks are watered and in short glasses, the hookers are not virgins, .... its a casino that is located in the real world, not in some mathematically pure territory.
So don't do what you're doing then? Are we done then? Are we done yet? What? Oh you had something to say about it?
I think the thread was over several posts ago. The answer is "no." So why are you posting to a thread with an answer?
Of course they did, it was active in advertisements and player's minds far longer than it was active on the dice table.Quote: AhighRiviera pulled the plug on 1000x a long time ago.
>Casino Royale is the only 100x now. Sam's town is still 20x. Most places are 10x or lower.
Yep. That is what most "Places" are, whereas most "Players are in the range of 0x to 5x.
100x players are rare. Consistent 100x players are even more rare.
One table was totally full. I think the most anybody had on the rail was $1000, but almost every player had green chips in action and the table was totally full.
I even took a photo.
You can say what you want about that place only offering double odds, but they have a very serious culture of players who really get into the game!
Okay, I think this is a valid point. 2x is usually considered quite low a risk for a casino to take... almost like announcing they are cheapskates. 2x is what cruise ships with there aquatic advantage over competitors offer the players. 2x is (usually) a depressing figure.
However, in the world of plaques on the wall and Golden Arm invitations ... there are still a sufficient number of tables to keep the casino quite interested in providing that measly 2x odds. The tables, the space, the crew, the bank ... are all provided and the players seem perfectly content for the moment with the 2x.
In all seriousness, I was lucky enough to meet the Captain a few years back. Nice guy that Cap, but he admitted to me that DI was a scam, kinda like Xenu and the United Negro College Fund.
Quote: FleaStiff
100x players are rare. Consistent 100x players are even more rare.
Even in the old Binions days of $1.usd gets your 100x, very very very few took more than five or ten times odds on said $1.usd.. I say again, it's all a myth casino's win due to house edges. It's all about luring people in and them being unable to manage their money and getting excited.
So that's why the girls are half naked and the music is pounding.Quote: NokTangand getting excited.
When I get on long rolls over there, they don't sweat, they SMILE. It's almost like fantasy land over there. They live on the legend of good shooting, and double odds or not, they love people who try to deliver the best possible shot.
Seeing the consistent green chip action from a full table of across bets really demonstrates the difference in style of that casino. There is a true sense of community there where everyone takes equal stakes to get behind the shooter and win together. And it's not about the edges (look at the $175 in green chips just on the five on this side), those folks are enjoying the game the way the casino wants them to enjoy it with the myth/legend/fantasy of the infallible shooter all intertwined with the experience from their view. Let the players believe and ENCOURAGE the belief is how they do it over there. No other place is like this.
Another thing I notice that's different about play here is that more people tend to laugh when the seven out finally comes than the get upset. I think it's the Hawaiian way of doing things, but pay attention next time you're there. We all know the F bombs and the other curse words common by players on seven-outs. But see if you can catch a laugh and people continuing to enjoy the game even on the seven-outs at California Club. Maybe it's the resignation that they are going to lose and they are just having fun anyway. Maybe it's that double odds is just not that much pressure. Or maybe it's just that how they run things at the California Club makes for a happier gambler. I don't know! But I do know that the people I run into over there are pretty happy folks and I like it.
Quote: NokTangEven in the old Binions days of $1.usd gets your 100x, very very very few took more than five or ten times odds on said $1.usd.. I say again, it's all a myth casino's win due to house edges. It's all about luring people in and them being unable to manage their money and getting excited.
If they legalize public smoking of marijuana in Vegas, I can't wait for the casino that is built around dope smoking and visual stimuli to go along with that. I mean imagine if you just get a contact high from being in there and you don't even need to light up! Girls and booze is nothing compared to gambling with a contact high. I'm not sure we even know what gambling while being really really stoned breeds in terms of a gambler's culture.
I have seen a couple of guys who very obviously reeked of marijuana win huge. And I will tell you that I love watching it.
One guy at the Silverton would get $1,000 worth of green chips and at the last second on a whim he would do a self-service place bet of two stacks of "GREEN" and I watched that boy win BIG. That's the table limit. He said something to Peter at the time who was one box, "Peter knows how I play, that's how I do." Yes he was an African American guy with an African American woman with him.
All I'm saying is that I enjoyed that show including the very strong odor of him having a ton of weed on him. Good for him taking all those risks and walking with all that money. And no, there was nobody at the casino that had a problem taking his action nor where they harassing him about what seemed like an ounce of pot in an open bag in his pocket to a trained nose.
Quote: AhighIf they legalize public smoking of marijuana in Vegas, I can't wait for the casino that is built around dope smoking and visual stimuli to go along with that. I mean imagine if you just get a contact high from being in there and you don't even need to light up! Girls and booze is nothing compared to gambling with a contact high. I'm not sure we even know what gambling while being really really stoned breeds in terms of a gambler's culture.
I have seen a couple of guys who very obviously reeked of marijuana win huge. And I will tell you that I love watching it.
I'm not sure if I would enjoy gambling while high, to be honest. I love gambling and I enjoy toking up, but the two together...I think I would get really nervous/paranoid and the money at risk would ruin the peacefulness of the high. Maybe just one toke to take the edge off :)
Quote:One guy at the Silverton would get $1,000 worth of green chips and at the last second on a whim he would do a self-service place bet of two stacks of "GREEN" and I watched that boy win BIG. That's the table limit. He said something to Peter at the time who was one box, "Peter knows how I play, that's how I do." Yes he was an African American guy with an African American woman with him.
All I'm saying is that I enjoyed that show including the very strong odor of him having a ton of weed on him. Good for him taking all those risks and walking with all that money. And no, there was nobody at the casino that had a problem taking his action nor where they harassing him about what seemed like an ounce of pot in an open bag in his pocket to a trained nose.
What the hell is a self-service place bet?
Quote: klimate10I think it's hilarious that the dice I/C argument has spilled into this thread also. It's kinda like a bar fight that starts at one bar and then spills over into the streets and moves from bar to bar. It makes for good reading.
In all seriousness, I was lucky enough to meet the Captain a few years back. Nice guy that Cap, but he admitted to me that DI was a scam, kinda like Xenu and the United Negro College Fund.
Dude, you need to stick around here more often! After you blow your wad for the year, no reason you can't stop by and post some gems like this one.
Quote: AcesAndEightsWhat the hell is a self-service place bet?
After the point was marked on the six on my roll he slammed down two full stacks of green chips ($1000 in green chips) in one big tall stack between where the passline bet and the odds bet goes. A self-service place bet on the point.
Quote: AhighAfter the point was marked on the six on my roll he slammed down two full stacks of green chips ($1000 in green chips) in one big tall stack between where the passline bet and the odds bet goes. A self-service place bet on the point.
Ah, of course. That thought had fleeted through my brain just as I posted, but I didn't go back to edit.
I was imagining some place where they let players plunk down chips on the place boxes just like the field or the come/don't come boxes - chaos!
But yeah, self-service place bet on the point, got it.
Quote: AhighWhen the house edge is zero, the ONLY thing of significance to the casino's advantage is the die.
Some might argue that 0.42% edge per roll is not "significant."
A zero house edge in the math is absolutely insignificant.
A deformed corner from a die smashing into the mirror is significant for a bet that has a zero edge.
Suppose you took a sanding wheel and truncated one corner of a precision casino die, leaving an equilateral triangle 2mm on a side. That's a severe deformity, one that would never be allowed in a casino assuming the boxperson was paying attention. Do you know how such a deformity would affect the face distribution or the resulting house edge on the bets? If not, how can you conclude that the deformity is significant in the final analysis?
At the time it was when I was creating the die balancer. But of particular interest I had was about how much the imbalance had to do with getting more results on specific faces compared to shaving and burning corners.
His opinion was that it takes quite a bit of weight difference to be effective. The most effective way to get the dice to behave the way you want them to from this expert's position was to modify the geometry of a corner and/or an edge. But IIRC the corner is where you get your business done.
He sells these items for quite a price and there is a lot of work that goes into creating these items that this guy makes.
I don't claim to be the expert, but he is one of the few.
I can give you his e-mail and let you talk to him if you want, or you could do your own research into the topic.
But even though I don't know the details, I have talked to an expert who does.
You have to be careful with this type of information though as there are laws in place in the state of Nevada that can make sharing information about these details a criminal act. As soon as you even intend to use the information you have learned to change the randomness of the dice intentionally (IE: to win money), you are guilty, IIRC.
So basically if you put a plan into motion to learn how this works and to subsequently go to a casino and win money using this technique, I think even before you do anything you're guilty if they can prove it.
And the guy who gives you the information as well. So basically what I'm telling you is that the only guys who know how this stuff works only use these modifications for "novelty" purposes. And they don't know how to get it to work in a casino or even describe to you how you would do that. Nor would I. Just because jail sucks, especially for breaking a law that has some big teeth to it.
Not knowing the law is not an excuse for breaking it, and I don't know the law on this subject all that well, so that's about all I can tell ya!
If you say yes, can you show me tax returns to prove that you are a winner, year in and year out?
I often have poker players who ask me to back them, as they claim to be 'pros'. I ask for proof in forms of five years worth of positive tax returns. They all say that they don't pay because it's cash. I say bullshit. Everytime I go to a casino, I cash out enough chips where the casino makes me give them a Social security number, so I am reported to the IRS. And with tournament winnings, the casino automatically generates a tax form. No professional poker player has ever proven to me, by producing a tax return, that they make money playing poker.
I often get this conversation...'hey, can we talk in private?'
Me: 'sure' (I know what's coming).
Pro: ' hey can you back me in this tournament coming up? I'm a pro. I can show you my player profile online. Ive won millions'. Just don't tell the guys because they'll want to buy all my action and I just wanna sell it to you only because you're a nice guy.
Me: 'show me five years of positive tax returns and I'll back you for your entire life.'
Pro: ' I don't pay taxes and don't file. It's cash, they don't know'
Me: 'really? Yesterday I cashed out 10,000 and they made me give them my social. And in a tournament they automatically generate a tax form w2, so you have no choice but to be reported'.
Pro: 'yeah, I'm a winning player.'
Me: 'you know what, I'm gonna tell everybody about you, Mr. TJ Cloutier (or insert degenerate whose name I don't know) since I don't know why you think I was going to keep your secret.'
I'd like for a DI/DC to produce a tax return showing they were taxed on their winnings. The argument that they don't pay taxes doesn't hold water, because even I'm reported to the IRS for my wins/losses. I have enough losses to offset a lifetime of craps wins.
I'm sure Frank Scoblete shows taxes for his books, seminars, and craps lessons; while showing write-offs for his gambling losses, like all of us big gamblers (you can only deduct gambling losses from wins so that you don't pay taxes on the wins, but you can't deduct losses from general income).
Quote: klimate10I'm sure Frank Scoblete shows taxes for his books, seminars, and craps lessons; while showing write-offs for his gambling losses, like all of us big gamblers (you can only deduct gambling losses from wins so that you don't pay taxes on the wins, but you can't deduct losses from general income).
If you're a professional gambler, you can: gambling winnings are your general income. Demonstrating that you're a professional gambler isn't terribly arduous if you actually are.
http://journalofaccountancy.com/Issues/2012/Apr/20114684.htm
And since you brought it up, I wonder what the SEC has to say about staking poker players and whether such a deal constitutes a security transaction under 17 CFR 240.
Quote: MathExtremistThe point of my query is to determine whether even a blatant deformity (grinding 2mm off a corner of a die) would impart enough bias to impact the game in a meaningful way. I'm not aware of anyone who's tested this question,...
I'd assume the faces adjacent to that corner would show up more often. So I took the 1,2 and 3 and made them 1 one hundredth more likely on one of two dice and ran a simulation of about a half a million rolls. Not surprisingly the distribution of rolls changes to favor the lower numbers. But not by much. Here's what I got:
0.024% 0.077% 0.084% 0.052% 0.052% -0.048% 0.007% -0.079% -0.098% -0.049% -0.021%
...2...........3...........4..........5..........6...........7..........8............9............10........11........12
The proportion of the occurrences for a number compared to its "normal" occurrences is expressed by the percentages. With fair dice the simulation never yields a proportion greater than plus/minus .03% (and this occurs in the 4 to 10 range). So I'd say this would favor the house. Less 3 to 1 pay-outs on the Field, more 3's and less 11's...
Hmmm, but less 7's...
Quote: MathExtremist
And since you brought it up, I wonder what the SEC has to say about staking poker players and whether such a deal constitutes a security transaction under 17 CFR 240.
I don't know the exact details but don't the regulations exempt transactions involving a small and limited number of parties? I know that you can ask for a few friends to back your company without having to file official docs, and wouldn't backing a poker player by a limited number of others be the same?
Quote: klimate10Ahigh, i ask this respectfully, and not in a comabtive manner...are you a lifetime winner at craps?
If you say yes, can you show me tax returns to prove that you are a winner, year in and year out?
I often have poker players who ask me to back them, as they claim to be 'pros'. I ask for proof in forms of five years worth of positive tax returns. They all say that they don't pay because it's cash. I say bullshit. Everytime I go to a casino, I cash out enough chips where the casino makes me give them a Social security number, so I am reported to the IRS. And with tournament winnings, the casino automatically generates a tax form. No professional poker player has ever proven to me, by producing a tax return, that they make money playing poker.
I often get this conversation...'hey, can we talk in private?'
Me: 'sure' (I know what's coming).
Pro: ' hey can you back me in this tournament coming up? I'm a pro. I can show you my player profile online. Ive won millions'. Just don't tell the guys because they'll want to buy all my action and I just wanna sell it to you only because you're a nice guy.
Me: 'show me five years of positive tax returns and I'll back you for your entire life.'
Pro: ' I don't pay taxes and don't file. It's cash, they don't know'
Me: 'really? Yesterday I cashed out 10,000 and they made me give them my social. And in a tournament they automatically generate a tax form w2, so you have no choice but to be reported'.
Pro: 'yeah, I'm a winning player.'
Me: 'you know what, I'm gonna tell everybody about you, Mr. TJ Cloutier (or insert degenerate whose name I don't know) since I don't know why you think I was going to keep your secret.'
I'd like for a DI/DC to produce a tax return showing they were taxed on their winnings. The argument that they don't pay taxes doesn't hold water, because even I'm reported to the IRS for my wins/losses. I have enough losses to offset a lifetime of craps wins.
I'm sure Frank Scoblete shows taxes for his books, seminars, and craps lessons; while showing write-offs for his gambling losses, like all of us big gamblers (you can only deduct gambling losses from wins so that you don't pay taxes on the wins, but you can't deduct losses from general income).
Quote: BeardgoatYou get a W2G for cashing out at poker, craps, bj? You might have them take your info and report you to fincen to make sure you're not laundering money, but you shouldn't be getting taxed on cashing in chips.
Yeah, most cashout info is to avoid laundering money. But if you win $5k+ in a poker tourney, I believe you are subject to a W2G. And I am not surprised by kilmate's story. Poker players asking for stakes from random people are often asking for a reason (i.e. they are losing players).
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Quote: BeardgoatYou get a W2G for cashing out at poker, craps, bj? You might have them take your info and report you to fincen to make sure you're not laundering money, but you shouldn't be getting taxed on cashing in chips.
Beardgoat is right.
Quote: AhighWhen the house edge is zero, the ONLY thing of significance to the casino's advantage is the die.
Some might argue that 0.42% edge per roll is not "significant."
A zero house edge in the math is absolutely insignificant.
A deformed corner from a die smashing into the mirror is significant for a bet that has a zero edge.
So are dice that have been previously profiled and reintroduced to the table to obtain a desired edge. Not an accusation of any casino, just a fact.
The fact that people cannot or refuse to understand this very simple fact while also concluding that an edge per roll of 0.00029 from taking 20x odds is enough to prevent you from ever winning the game in the long run is quite amusing to me.
I just generated 100,000 random rolls and entered the face outcomes to a spreadsheet to show what the actual house edge would be for those face weights.
Here's the edges for the free bets with randomly generated numbers for 100,000 throws (a lifetime of throws for most players!)
-0.000535296 -0.000594496 -0.000398067 0.000150692 0.000432602 0.000536183
Now compare those edges to 0.00029 that you get for combined edge for 20x odds.
And what is more significant? The edge from 100,000 randomly generated samples on a bet that is supposed to be free? Or the edge from a lifetime of random data? This is all fairly generated random data at a lifetimes worth of samples and it's in the ballpark of mattering as much as having 1/21th of your bets on the passline.
Now have some unfair dice in there with more than a normal amount of a particular face (EG: six and one), and these numbers get bigger pretty damn quickly.
So just curious on the guys who lost at Riviera's 1000x table, was it on the do or the don't? I wouldn't be surprised if somebody took the casino on the don't before they had to shut it all down. But I have only heard stories of people losing more than they expected.
I lost $1600 in 15 minutes the only time I went in there. That was a big loss for me too. Over betting your bankroll can be costly! But so can making false assumptions about how fair the game is that they were running. Now I have no idea, but even fair dice for an entire lifetime of throws is no different than 20x in terms of what you're actually going to expect to get in terms of "fairness."
VERY INTERESTING POST ! This illustrates the lack of fairness we see from unbalanced dice that I have been seeing around the country.
Would anyone actually believe that the Riviera would expose themselves with 1000 odds AND fair dice!
