Combined vig on the 4 and 10

I was playing at Harrah's Rincon a couple weeks back, and on every shooter I was buying the 4 and 10 for $35 each. Rincon collects the vig up front, and the vig is $1 for a $35 bet. So I would give the dealer $72 total to book the wagers.

I came back the following week, and once again I planned on buying the 4 and 10 for $35 each. However, when I gave the dealer $72, she said, "I need one more dollar."

"What?" I asked.

"You've got a total of $70, so I need to collect $3 for the vig."

"But I was here last week and I only had to pay $2."

"Sorry," she said. "That crew was doing it wrong."

So, there were two stupid things going on here. First (and I'm sure many of you have experienced some form of this before), two crews (or shifts perhaps) in the same casino were using different rules to deal a game. This is always frustrating.

Second, combining the vig collection for simultaneous buy bets on the $4 and $10 is inconsistent and ultimately impossible to enforce, not to mention petty. When a 4 hits and I want to keep the buy bet up, I give them $1. If that is then followed by a 10 hitting, they don't say, "Oh, you only gave me $1 for that 4 that just hit, so I need to collect $2 now for the 10." No, they just collect $1. So now I've paid $2 to keep the 4 and 10 booked, as opposed to the $3 I had to pay when I initially took the bets. Inconsistent.

I could give more examples, but I'm sure you get my point. Vig should be collected on a bet-by-bet basis, and not based on multiple bets.

What would they do if you bet $35 buy 4 on one roll for $1 vig and, on the next roll, booked a $35 buy 10? Would they charge you $1 or $2? If it's just $1, you can work around that (admittedly wrong) policy by booking your bets on different rolls. You only give up one roll worth of action on one bet.

should be
what rule in CA states that an Indian casino must always charge the same for a vig on buy bets
if it is on one or two of them??

Harrah's Rincon is a Native American (Indian) casino in CA
You are in their casino
You are on their land in their nation.

They can do, and they do, whatever they want, when they want to.
And in CA, there is nothing one can do about that in an Indian Casino and no one to go and cry to.

You can go to other CA Indian casinos and play their craps game
but may find the same thing or other things that you do not like.

Quote: MathExtremist

What would they do if you bet $35 buy 4 on one roll for $1 vig and, on the next roll, booked a $35 buy 10? Would they charge you $1 or $2? If it's just $1, you can work around that (admittedly wrong) policy by booking your bets on different rolls. You only give up one roll worth of action on one bet.

Yeah, would they charge me $1 or $2 on that second bet? That's a good question. It might depend on the dealer. (See, and this speaks to my point about it being impossible to enforce. A dealer shouldn't have to keep track of how much vig a player has already paid on combined bets.)

The way I've gotten around it is to just bet $25 each on the 4 and 10 (paying the $2 vig), and then pressing each of them $10 (one at a time) at some points during the hand (sometimes when one of them hits, sometimes "arbitrarily").

Duh. Wait a second before asking for the second bet!

I didn't realize they charge the vig up front. When I was there making my $5 pass and $5 fire bet, I was wondering why players were making bets on the 4 and 10 and announcing "no buy." Now I understand why.

Yeah, for VIG up front, 4 and 10 is a lot more expensive even rounding down to $1 from a $35 bet.

Normally 36 would let you bring down 108, but they keep the vig up front and the pay that would have resulted from that vig up front if the bet were free, so the edge is $3 from that one dollar they always keep.

3/108 = 2.78%

When they charge $3, that's $9/219 = 4.19% .. that's worse than placing the five and nine. Hardly worthy of even being called a buy bet.

Why not just bet the field and get it over with sooner?

a $25 buy with vig on the win is 1.33% which is less than half the vig here in Vegas. They generally don't round down beyond $25, so that's as good as it gets.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I didn't realize they charge the vig up front. When I was there making my $5 pass and $5 fire bet, I was wondering why players were making bets on the 4 and 10 and announcing "no buy." Now I understand why.

I've written to the Director of Casino Operations at Rincon to see if he'll consider changing the rule to only collecting the vig on winning bets. I haven't heard back yet. (I'm not holding my breath, but we'll see.)

I think I remember Charles Town in WV doing that, I might be mistaken though. I agree it's bullshit. On the other hand, I think you would be more successful asking them not to combine the vig when making bets together... Then point out the ways people get around it.

Couldn't you also buy it on the come out, but immediately turn it off. Then buy the other on the next roll and keep them off until a point is made?

Seriously, the short answer is that for buy bets on the 4 and 10 .. NEVER buy if the commission is up front.

That's *my* rule!!! But if I didn't live in Vegas, I can see how it would be a problem. Very few places are vig up front on the 4 and 10 but there are a couple.

Even at Joker's Wild, you can buy the 4 for $5 with a $0.25 vig up front, and I won't even do that(!!!)

Quote: Ahigh

a $25 buy with vig on the win is 1.33% which is less than half the vig here in Vegas. They generally don't round down beyond $25, so that's as good as it gets.

I can get $30 buys on 4/5/9/10 for $1 (on win only) at JANugget in Reno...that's about the only place I know of...

MGM & CZR got anal on crapless buys here in MS. Buy the extremes for $25 @ cost $105. But 4,5,9,10 are traditional buys with vig on win.

Maybe ten years ago Caesars Palace charged the vig up front on the buys, then they changed it. Are there Strip casinos that charge the vig up front?

well i make a good deal of money on the 10... depending on what set i am using...., if i use the
hardway set of 5/4 i bet $10 10 and a $2 hard ten.

If i hit the soft 10 i have a profit of $9 if i leave it up or $19 if a person wants to take it done, or you have
the option of buying the 10 for $25, in which case it costs you $7 of out of rack money.... I do well with
this because i know i have an advantage in SRR..

Since i also know that i throw a number of hard tens in this set, i place the hard ten for $2 , when you hit
the hard ten you get $19 back for your $10 place bet and $14 for the hardway bet. So that is $34 and if
you then buy the 10 for $25... costs you $26 here..... i have a 10 bought and $8 in my rack.

I dont play the 4 this way because i dont throw as many hard 4's and i never play it in the 3v set
because i have to be off axis to hit a hard 4.

Sunday night i hit 5 buys on the 10 ..... that was nice profit

Again i would never bet that on a random thrower, and i am not suggesting anyone else does this, But if
my dice are looking good i do it, much better bet than placing a $5 fire bet

dicesitter

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Quote: dicesitter

well i make a good deal of money on the 10... depending on what set i am using...., if i use the
hardway set of 5/4 i bet $10 10 and a $2 hard ten.

If i hit the soft 10 i have a profit of $9 if i leave it up or $19 if a person wants to take it done, or you have
the option of buying the 10 for $25, in which case it costs you $7 of out of rack money.... I do well with
this because i know i have an advantage in SRR..

Since i also know that i throw a number of hard tens in this set, i place the hard ten for $2 , when you hit
the hard ten you get $19 back for your $10 place bet and $14 for the hardway bet. So that is $34 and if
you then buy the 10 for $25... costs you $26 here..... i have a 10 bought and $8 in my rack.

I dont play the 4 this way because i dont throw as many hard 4's and i never play it in the 3v set
because i have to be off axis to hit a hard 4.

Sunday night i hit 5 buys on the 10 ..... that was nice profit

Again i would never bet that on a random thrower, and i am not suggesting anyone else does this, But if
my dice are looking good i do it, much better bet than placing a $5 fire bet

dicesitter

I think you should make that fire bet. Use that hardway set 5/4 and get that tough ass ten out of the way.Then, set the 3v and purposely be off axis and get that other tough ass number (4). We all know how well you roll the 6 and 8 so those two shouldn't be a problem. All that's left is the 5 and 9 and im sure you have a good set for them but just haven't shared it with us (yet).Good luck to ya.