THE LAUGHLIN CRAPS CIRCUIT 2-17-2013

First off I couldn't remember my PW for this site so i created a new username and abbrev it. VDC is who i am known on these boards. A Little quickie about me.I live in Vegas (15 years now) and have played craps since i was 21, currently 49. I really got into it in early 90's where i came to town and took classes by infamous Leonard Benson, Playing craps as a Profession. Learned some good things and believe it or not it still works today. Nonetheless, over the years i have become a little more skilled and savvy about the game and the casinos and for many years only played solo or with 1-2 others. kept a low pro and i liked it that way. I met SR and HH thru a friend whom we were both trying out for a pro Local Team of Di's here in town. Turns out SR and I are in same line of work Elevator, both Love the Game of Craps, have the same real first name, have the same first/last name initials. Some coincidences maybe, but nonetheless have never met til about 9 months ago. Go figure that and i was playing a few days a week here.

Anyway, the Laughlin run was kind of what I expected. I was invited by SR and HH to meet up with a few other Di invited to do a day Trip to Laughlin, where we tried to make a few bucks. We are all experienced enough to know when a bunch of Di's/DC's get together what could happen and what happens more often. And thats bankroll depletion as the expectation among DI is that they are all gonna have at least 1 monster roll. So we pre-empted that topic and said to all be careful as more times than not for whatever reason, it usually doesnt happen. Ao i was trying to stick to my Guns about betting just Trend Setter (a methology i developed over 10 yrs). on the tables we were at. Did not play it to the tilt as it requires me to make DP/DC bets on the table trend developing, so i was cautious to using it. Hinesight I wish i went full bore on it. It was kind of an up and down day with us all.

We Hit All Tall Small 3 times on 1 side and just missed everything by a # a few times. C.O 7's fked us as well as we would have hit it 1-2 times for everything but CO7 resets it all. A few high points of the day without getting into everyone else's rolls w/out permission from them to talk, were obvious the ATS (3) winners i hit. I hit a Hopping H8 on Ahigh as he banged out 7 eights in a 14 hand roll and 4 were hard. Wish i had got in on the start, but a few table trend s had me in a wait mode, but after seeing some of those 8's repeat, when it came soft after a hard, i fired back and hopped it for $10 and bang it hit. Speaking of 8's, I hit five 8's in 6 rolls using a Little Joes shot. I t has a tendencies of repeating numbers alot. Something you all should look into for an alternative to PARR. ATS -1 sided we hit Twice my me and once by SR. I was on it for $5 ea. I only shot I think like 6-7 times all day, and had a few hands into the 20's, but im usually good for at least 1 into 30's+, but didnt happen. I shot from a few diff spots and a few diff techniques, PARR SL2 and a diff technique from other spots.

I tend to be on the more of aggressive approach and good and bad things can happen with that. You tend to leave a lot of profits on table on mid roll hands 14 rolls and less and then if behind and trying to get back if down, you tend not to be aggressive but pull $$$ off table and leave MR aggressive on the bench, when a 34 hand roll by SR comes around. This is what happened to me. I use my aggressive Power Press in 3 phases. 1) 15 rolls than reduce, or 24) rolls than reduce, or 30) rolls than reduce. I wish i had used 30 on SR as I figured it out i would have collected about $4300 and Im sure something like that at days end would have warranted a $4-500 toke from me to SR. But bc i was behind, i had to grind back and i used 15 rolls then reduce from $64 across PP to $84 across PP and after 24 rolls i think i reduced again. I want to say i had $500 on felt when SR's 7 out came.

Well gotta get back to work in yard, if SR,AH,HH,MM, want to chime in, ill let them. But I had fun with the fellas as i always do. I think for me, it was kinda hard to get in a groove when you get bones every 1.5 hrs. But that's what happens when you play on times of full tables. I have a lot of the roll data as I track, but without consent of others i wont post it. I can talk about my stuff as I really dont care one way or another...later i can post what I did as i need to gather and separate everyones rolls.

I do have my last one handy, so i put it up: 8*,8 6*,12.5,4,6 7*,3*,3*,h4*, 4, 4*,5,5,9,h10,4 9*,3,11,5,3,h4,2,h6,7out. ( i probably left 1-2 # out as i get in a zone when i shoot and tend not to record 1-3 # during a 25-30+ roll) SR might have to check his records. One thing i remember that happened is that all 3 ATS payouts the 7 came very next roll. energy break in the game of 60 seconds and next roll 7 out. this happened early this month at GN las vegas to me as i hit it there too and next roll a 7 . im so tempted to look for the longest # that hasnt hit since that point and lay it 1 roll for $300 nest time. maybe its a 4,6,8,or 10 where i can hop hardway for $10 hedge.

VDC

I had a good time. Thanks for inviting me.

That's good.. With the upmost respect, I have one question.



So even with multiple "DIs" on the table, you only generated a profit of 500 bucks? How long was the session... I also see you showed one of your high rolls.. (The 20+ data)... How many rolls were there of 6 and under..

Just curious, no disrespect intended.

Quote: TheWolf713

That's good.. With the upmost respect, I have one question.



So even with multiple "DIs" on the table, you only generated a profit of 500 bucks? How long was the session... I also see you showed one of your high rolls.. (The 20+ data)... How many rolls were there of 6 and under..

Just curious, no disrespect intended.

I did not mark everyone's on my sheets, as i didn't know id be in here justifying roll data. :) Just from my sheets, and again i did not always put an initial's to whom was shooting, as i had bigger fish to fry... but here is what I have in my recordings...

to answer your ? Looks like 7 rolls from (4) were under 6 or less from a total of 23.. so about 30% and 70% were higher.... Not making excuses, but a few of us were out of position as we had to fight to get on a few tables and get decent spots as some only had 1 option. This wasn't Vegas were you could just stroll from Casino to Casino to find good tables, good conditions etc... we had Pit bosses sweating us most of the time..they knew we were together and they did not want us to Win. We had to figure tables out on the fly, that would attest to a few shorties...as well as practicing in 1-2,3 spots from our own tables then taking the 3rd basemen and putting him in centerfield, he could play it, but not as good as a guy fielding that position day in and day out, but could manage...I felt we did decent for what we were up against. Could we have performed better here in Vegas...Without a doubt as we are familiar with casino, tables, personel staff etc...well heres some info below...

VDC: 3, 21, 5, 13, 8, 11, 27

S2:, 12, 12, 4, 34, 8, 16 but i think i may be missing 1

S3; 15, 4,, 3, 20, 3 again may be missing 1-2

S4: 6, 21, 8, 8, 14 and might be missing at least 2-3 of shooter 4

S5 ; totally incomplete.. gonna have to get SR's data for him

Quote: VDC

I did not mark everyone's on my sheets, as i didn't know id be in here justifying roll data. :) Just from my sheets, and again i did not always put an initial's to whom was shooting, as i had bigger fish to fry... but here is what I have in my recordings...

to answer your ? Looks like 7 rolls from (4) were under 6 or less from a total of 23.. so about 30% and 70% were higher.... Not making excuses, but a few of us were out of position as we had to fight to get on a few tables and get decent spots as some only had 1 option. This wasn't Vegas were you could just stroll from Casino to Casino to find good tables, good conditions etc... we had Pit bosses sweating us most of the time..they knew we were together and they did not want us to Win. We had to figure tables out on the fly, that would attest to a few shorties...as well as practicing in 1-2,3 spots from our own tables then taking the 3rd basemen and putting him in centerfield, he could play it, but not as good as a guy fielding that position day in and day out, but could manage...I felt we did decent for what we were up against. Could we have performed better here in Vegas...Without a doubt as we are familiar with casino, tables, personel staff etc...well heres some info below...

VDC: 3, 21, 5, 13, 8, 11, 27

S2:, 12, 12, 4, 34, 8, 16 but i think i may be missing 1

S3; 15, 4,, 3, 20, 3 again may be missing 1-2

S4: 6, 21, 8, 8, 14 and might be missing at least 2-3 of shooter 4

S5 ; totally incomplete.. gonna have to get SR's data for him

I Toatally understand... There's nothing like puttng in Good hours practicing only to arrive there and find some Youtube pro (lol) standing in Your spot throwing the dice off the table from sl 1... I Appreciate it... Good to see guys putting in work..

I was fortunate enough to be able to meet up with this group that VdC is speaking of here. I've read the forum for a couple months and got to put some genuine faces with names. That was great. So right away anyone reading this, they are real people and although you don't know me, my word says they not only talk the talk but they walk the walk as well. They take on all comer's, deal with the pit pressure, navigate around the obstacle's and get the job done. For those that are fairly new to the game, might be practicing a few hours a day for month's, also studying the literature on craps, paying attention when someone is available to teach you something about the game. These guys are definately in a class of their own when it comes to playing craps in real play, in a busy casino in foreign territory with hostile pit crews. That might have been the most amazing part of the journey, how they dealt with antagonistic pit people and boxman and the floor starting to fill up with suits not usually seen on the floor. Although some of the stick people were knowledgable as well as competant to play with, I thought the boxpeople were needlessly rude and arrogant, their attitude and behaviour was uncalled for. The crew here was playing a very good game under adverse conditions. The house was not being plundered, they certainly were not being cheated but seemed to act like the small money being payed by the house was actually their money and they hadn't just looted it from unsuspecting less knowledgable players. I watched the them let guy walk up told him the point was ten, and they let him put his wager on the pass line for even money instead of placing it for nine to five. The pit crew was tipped almost every role by one player or other steadily. As for the casino's "business mode", the way they treat craps players won't be retaining them. It's not like dice players get much respect anywhere but they stood out as trying to mess with the shooter, any shooter that didn't pso. Which I did, I'm pretty sure I could sense they giving me the stink eye anyway. They didn't seem to be happy about my friend betting the DP against himself and winning? These casino's are losing patrons by the busload and no wonder with the open contempt they shown the players. But we're dice players, that's what we have to put with some times, especially when you've committed that day do to the long drive out to laughlin. I prefer to not acknowledge my beginning dice skills, that's just my way but this once. I play in Laughlin very often and I won't say I've played with every shooter there but in two years I haven't seen anybody come close. I can't do it all the time but have had several roles over 40 minutes, my point being here is SR and friends blew me and my little skill set way out of water, out of casino down the road and metaphor. On a personal note I needed to see what I saw, until yesterday I was alone out there. Other's talk about their skills, about how amazed and wealthy we could all be, if we'd just take a couple thousand dollars worth of there dice school, buy there tapes and books and chant their mantra.

Wow, that got longer that I thought. If you get the opportunity to get around these guys and you really want to and are capable of learning, don't act dumb and leave any ego at the door. Accept the fact that there are people that know more than you do or just know differant things than you do, never turn down a vast resource of knowledge on any subject. At my age i don't have the time to re-invent the wheel so I need to get the benefits that I can from others who have went before me. I do really appreciate all of you guys yesterday for sharing, it helped me in ways that are difficult to explain. But is was a lot more than just how to throw dice, game theory or just money. Thankyou all, petroglyph and the guy from Alaska!!!

Quote: petroglyph

If you get the opportunity to get around these guys and you really want to and are capable of learning, don't act dumb and leave any ego at the door. Accept the fact that there are people that know more than you do or just know differant things than you do, never turn down a vast resource of knowledge on any subject.

GOLD!!!!!

Quote: petroglyph

It's not like dice players get much respect anywhere but they stood out as trying to mess with the shooter, any shooter that didn't pso. ...They didn't seem to be happy about my friend betting the DP against himself and winning? These casino's are losing patrons by the busload and no wonder with the open contempt they've shown the players.

Heck, I've played DontPass when shooting and got complaints or dirty looks from everyone from the hooker risking her previous night's earnings to the crew who think I'm somehow reaching into their pockets at the time, even though they don't actually have any pockets.

Some places have had such management turnovers that the current managers have little experience and view anyone not playing a slot machine as the enemy.

Do I believe in Dice Influencing...No.
Do I believe in patronizing a Sweat The Money joint...No.
Sweat the Money joints are worse. I know they exist! I've definitely experienced them. Too many times for comfort.
I only think I may have experienced a few DI type guys who tossed in a weird manner and sure kept hitting those tens and twelves.

It was a fun trip for sure.

On 2-17-13, I met up with Ahigh and four other of my DI buddies, we started out at 9 am and we didn't get home till 10:30 pm. The plan was to take the day and hit different casinos, that all had different type of table conditions in them, and to show how we could adapt to the different tables. I wanted to show Ahigh what would happen at the different casinos and how we would be treated differently by each one of them.

The other part of this little experiment was to show Ahigh that I'm not a bad guy just because I question what he writes. It's a lot different meeting someone in person that over on some gambling forum. At lunch Ahigh brought up the question about how we had all met. He knew VDC but never met Harley, or Manny. There was one other guy that showed up at the tables that I had invited to meet us there, that post under the handle of Petroglyph. He had PM me about someone being a DI and said that he did pretty good shooting but had question, that maybe I could help him out with.

After seeing Manny shoot, Ahigh asked how long he had been playing craps, Manny got a big laugh out of that one and said to ask me about that, as it turns out not to long, I met Manny the same way as Petroglyph , but got an Email from him asking if he could met me as he was a local. I set up a meeting at a table and was told that he never got over 8 rolls of the dice, after seeing him shoot I could see why. He had the mechanics down pat, but just didn't know what to do with his shot.

Teaching anybody at a craps table is not the thing to do in a casino, its pretty damn hard to do. But I told him watch how I make one shot and I wanted him to do the same thing, I talked to him about what he was doing wrong and how he needed to just do what I showed him. He was an easy student and his next roll was a 31 roll and after working with him at my house and Harley house he's never looked back. I get a lot of strange phone calls that have to do with anybody that is a DI and one night Manny gives me a call, and asked what does Howard Rocking Roller look like, because there is some guy at Bally's shooting from straight out that is killing the table. Manny had read about Howard but never saw a photo of him. After Manny told me what the guy looked like I told him when he got done shooting to give me a call. He called me back and I told him that when the guys phone rings to introduce himself to Howard. I made the phone call and sure enough it turned out to be Howard. Howard has been written up in a few of the books on dice control and I love to get on a table with him when he is in Vegas, because he is a great shooter!

Now ever DI board says that a DI can stay under the radar, and I've always said BS, that just doesn't happen, and it didn't happen Sunday either!

Ahigh has written in the past that he hasn't seen the casinos sweat the money or the shooters, well I think I made my point to him on Sunday, about casinos sweating the money and the shooters that I had with us. This had nothing to do with the way we were acting, like a great fiction writer likes to write. We had the dealers up on different bets and hardways when we were rolling them. They never even thanked us for making them money!

Now I hate playing on the weekends because it will limit the times you get the dice in your hands and this was no exception, remember I said we started out a 9 am and got to the tables about 11 am we got off the table about 8:30 pm in that time frame with lunch I only got to throw the dice 7 times. This is what happens when you are playing on full tables; you spend a lot of time in the casinos and get to shoot very little.

When we started out, it was brought up that playing under the conditions we would be facing on Sunday was not going to be good, even if everything went right for us. I always write that bringing a bunch of DI's to any table is not a good thing to do. Sunday it became quite obvious why that is. When anybody walks by a table and they see somebody that can shoot, they buy in and there goes the game. You are now playing on a full table.

Here is what I think Ahigh got to see Sunday, casinos do sweat DI's depending on the boxman and suits. They will try anything they can do to take a shooter out of their game. They were telling us you got to hit the backwall when we were, then they were saying you’re not hitting the wall hard enough. The best one was when one of the guys hit the wall in the diamonds and made a hard eight and was told that he couldn't do that he had to land his dice on the felt before they hit the diamonds. Talk about doing a double take on that one. I had to ask the stickman what he just said!

Now for the main problem that I see and I always tell anybody that is coming to Vegas to play craps, book your trip for the week days do not book it on the weekends when the tables are full. The first table we stopped at the table was empty when we got there but that didn't last, in no time at all we had a full table.

I'm not going to get into the roll count for anybody that was on the table, just put it this way there were some rolls that everybody would love to see, even with all the heat we were getting from the suits and boxmen. If Ahigh wants me to post his rolls I will.
One of the points I wanted Ahigh to see, is how we could adapt to any table, we were going to play on and also to see what a difference the tables make. One of the reasons I'm always writing about the fiction that you read on the different DI boards, is nobody is walking into a casino and take a cool haft million off a table with only a $2000 buy-in. The reason for that is just what happened to us. When you get on any good rolls the tables fill up, and you might as well walk away, you are never going to get the dice back and you stand at the table for over an hour, just to have the dice come back to you, unless everybody has PSO's.


The main reason for never playing craps on the weekends is because you never get the dice back in your hands, this proved to be very true, as we only got to shot 7 times during the day. Most players would never even think about how many times they got to shoot when they were playing on a full table. I wish that craps players would take the time to read any good book on craps before they started to play craps, as it never fails every stupid player there is always will buy-in at table end. I think that goes back to seeing one to many movies, where the shooter is shooting from straight out and is winning.

I love these guys that will stack as many chips as the can get on any bet they have. What started out as a clear table now has chips stacked in the field, in the come and on the pass-line. Just when you get the table figured out, all these type of players show up on the table because the shooter is on a roll. So the problem becomes waiting on the dice to get back around the table, even just betting one bet on some of the guys that pick up the dice can be a death sentence to your bank roll if you don't watch who you are betting on, and it could be one of the guys that went to the table with you.
On the one table we were on there were 9 different shooters that never made their point, in a row.

Now here is the other thing just because someone calls themself a DI doesn't mean that they are not going to have short roll too! There is so much fiction that is written about these guys that are called DI's that the casinos are scared about anybody that sets the dice, when in fact they should welcome anybody that does, those 9 rolls that everybody 7 out, were by guys that were setting the dice. Just about everybody does now. These guys that write this fiction to sell their schools or to sell becoming a DI, have done more damage to everybody that plays craps, because the casinos now think that there are guys out there that can take them for hundreds of thousands a year off the tables. That's just BS, written by pathological liars and egoistical maniacs!

We are not about trying to make a table dump money, we want to be able to play at casinos and be welcomed back. I don’t understand anybody that is a DI and tries to win as much as they can off the casinos in one day if they are locals; even if they are not why would you want to rub any casino wrong. That has gotten a lot of card counters banned from casinos.

With the roll totals that were posted earlier in the thread, is it safe to assume that everyone made money?

Quote: Ahigh

I had a good time. Thanks for inviting me.

AMEN !! ... based on scouting reports, this was to be more of a tourist trip than a business trip and that is what it turned out to be .... I will leave out details since this is a public board

It was a pleasure meeting AHigh !! .... and spending an entertaining day with the local gang -- a good roadtrip and a chance to meet someone from Alaska and Petroglyph who has kind words and a better toss !!

Quote: petroglyph

I was fortunate enough to be able to meet up with this group that VdC is speaking of here. I've read the forum for a couple months and got to put some genuine faces with names. That was great. So right away anyone reading this, they are real people and although you don't know me, my word says they not only talk the talk but they walk the walk as well. They take on all comer's, deal with the pit pressure, navigate around the obstacle's and get the job done. For those that are fairly new to the game, might be practicing a few hours a day for month's, also studying the literature on craps, paying attention when someone is available to teach you something about the game. These guys are definately in a class of their own when it comes to playing craps in real play, in a busy casino in foreign territory with hostile pit crews. That might have been the most amazing part of the journey, how they dealt with antagonistic pit people and boxman and the floor starting to fill up with suits not usually seen on the floor. Although some of the stick people were knowledgable as well as competant to play with, I thought the boxpeople were needlessly rude and arrogant, their attitude and behaviour was uncalled for. The crew here was playing a very good game under adverse conditions. The house was not being plundered, they certainly were not being cheated but seemed to act like the small money being payed by the house was actually their money and they hadn't just looted it from unsuspecting less knowledgable players. I watched the them let guy walk up told him the point was ten, and they let him put his wager on the pass line for even money instead of placing it for nine to five. The pit crew was tipped almost every role by one player or other steadily. As for the casino's "business mode", the way they treat craps players won't be retaining them. It's not like dice players get much respect anywhere but they stood out as trying to mess with the shooter, any shooter that didn't pso. Which I did, I'm pretty sure I could sense they giving me the stink eye anyway. They didn't seem to be happy about my friend betting the DP against himself and winning? These casino's are losing patrons by the busload and no wonder with the open contempt they shown the players. But we're dice players, that's what we have to put with some times, especially when you've committed that day do to the long drive out to laughlin. I prefer to not acknowledge my beginning dice skills, that's just my way but this once. I play in Laughlin very often and I won't say I've played with every shooter there but in two years I haven't seen anybody come close. I can't do it all the time but have had several roles over 40 minutes, my point being here is SR and friends blew me and my little skill set way out of water, out of casino down the road and metaphor. On a personal note I needed to see what I saw, until yesterday I was alone out there. Other's talk about their skills, about how amazed and wealthy we could all be, if we'd just take a couple thousand dollars worth of there dice school, buy there tapes and books and chant their mantra.

Just some friendly advice...maybe try to use a few paragraph breaks in future posts. The Wall of Text is difficult to read :(

Thanks man. Hell, I wrote that on a computer. I thought they just did that stuff automatically. I just figured out how to turn this thing on about two years ago.

I get to play with some really great guys that come into Vegas to play craps. I get a lot of PM’s from different players asking about Vegas and the craps playing world here.

Sometimes I do meet up with a few of the guys that post on different boards. My wife hates when I do that, because as she says you never know who is on the other side of the computer. One of the guys that I got to play craps with not to long ago was RaleighCraps, I liked what he had to write about playing craps and he didn’t disappoint me, he plays the game as he writes about it.

One of the first things he told me was that he was a rhythm shooter, my response to him was no problem I bet on different shooters on the tables anyway, it doesn’t matter to me.
If any of you ever get to play craps with him I know that you will like what he does. His shooting was right on without setting the dice. I’ve been a firm believer in this kind of shooting for years. You have to know that before the words “Dice Influencer” was coined, he is the kind of shooters that you would run into on the tables.

I have a very strong believe that if you don’t know how to bet the game, or your into taking advice from some of these fiction writers that are on the boards you are going to fail at playing craps. RaleighCraps has his betting a science and is very fast to pick up on what someone is telling him. I’m constantly learning from other players that play craps. An open mind is what makes you a better player.

Becoming a so-called DI is not the answer to winning at craps, but it sure does help if you have the time to put in all the practice and that means practicing you’re betting too! The problem is nobody can be a machine when you go into a casino. So the DI’s fail just like the so-called random rollers that the guys that are selling you becoming a DI are telling you not to bet on, BS is all I can say about that. Random rollers still get on more rolls then the DI’s do only because they out number the DI’s thousands to one. Some players have never seen a DI and probably never will. You need to know who you can bet on by what they are doing on the tables. There are a lot of DI’s that my chips stay in the rack when they are shooting, because they are not consistent in how they shoot.

Playing craps is a betting game, right bet at the right time you win, wrong bet at the wrong time you lose. So betting is more important then how you shoot. I could have a 50 roll, but if I didn’t bet it right, I wouldn’t make any money off the roll. If you have been taught to only bet on the 6’s and 8’s and nobody is rolling them you are going to end up a loser for the day!

Edit duplicate post

Quote:

odiousgambit

wth, do you have this ready to copy and paste or something?

To answer your question, I write everything in Open Office then copy it over to the board, I can blame this duplicate post on two things “Alzheimer's disease” or no sleep; my wife just got back from Fla. late last night. I had to pick her up at the airport and didn’t get to much sleep last night. The possibility is still there for “Alzheimer's disease” damn it’s hell getting old.

I play craps very early in the mornings and sometimes the sleep deprivation does catch up to me! I still what to find who ever came up with the saying “The Golden Years” if spending your time with the doctors are golden I got news for all you young guys out there!

Quote: superrick

I get to play with some really great guys

wth, do you have this ready to copy and paste or something?

Yeah, I think he posts to multiple boards with content created locally, then copied and pasted. He has his own craps board and he might also be posting at one or two other places. Probably just forget he already put that here.