So unbalanced dice everywhere or not?
I see lot's of posts about that every casino has unbalanced dice most of the time and that the unbalance causes 6-1 to occur more and that's bad for the player.
1. So do they or do they not? If I would go and track numbers and see that 6-1 occurs more than others (not just any 7), I could assume they are?
2. Why is it a bad play? IF you know that you have more chance to get 6-1, so you can bet on the ANY SEVEN bet or even 6:6 or 1:1, no?
It probably can't be that simple.. so enlighten me please :)
EXTRA QUESTION: is the chance higher to find unbalanced dice and biased roulette in smaller casinos (we have here like some game houses, you can barely call it casino), cause they probably have a more simple equipment and less strict regulations, no?
Quote: whatever61I am new to craps and this is probably an old subject, but I couldn't find a clear answer everywhere..
I see lot's of posts about that every casino has unbalanced dice most of the time and that the unbalance causes 6-1 to occur more and that's bad for the player.
1. So do they or do they not? If I would go and track numbers and see that 6-1 occurs more than others (not just any 7), I could assume they are?
2. Why is it a bad play? IF you know that you have more chance to get 6-1, so you can bet on the ANY SEVEN bet or even 6:6 or 1:1, no?
It probably can't be that simple.. so enlighten me please :)
Making the pass line more likely to win on the come out roll isn't a recipe for casino success.
Quote: vendman1I've only played craps a few times....so I guess I could be wrong. But, I don't think any casino in Nevada is going to risk their gaming license by using unbalanced dice ever.
There are actually no GCB regulations in Nevada for casino dice. A casino could technically offer live craps with the dice that come in a Monopoly game.
Quote: whatever611. So do they or do they not? If I would go and track numbers and see that 6-1 occurs more than others (not just any 7), I could assume they are?
2. Why is it a bad play?
1. They do not. "Devices" are subject to confiscation and inspection at anytime by Gaming Control. Whether they actually do the inspection or not is a different story.
2. Why risk fines and prison time when you already have a built in edge? The problem with biased dice is that the rules of the game allow a player to exploit any bias, so there is a risk to the casino that they could lose it all to a player hopping 6-1.
Quote: MathExtremistThere are actually no GCB regulations in Nevada for casino dice. A casino could technically offer live craps with the dice that come in a Monopoly game.
Correct!
On craps in Nevada, pretty much the casino can do anything they want...
Quote: MathExtremistThere are actually no GCB regulations in Nevada for casino dice. A casino could technically offer live craps with the dice that come in a Monopoly game.
Really!! Wow that's shocking...Being an east coast guy all the states that have gambling here are regulated out the waoo-zoo.....still I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're aren't any unbalanced dice in play at Nevada casinos. At least not for long.
Q: I've seen pit personal use the dice checking doo-hicky from time to time in AC...they must do that in Vegas right? To protect the integrity of the game if nothing else.
Quote: Ayecarumba1. They do not. "Devices" are subject to confiscation and inspection at anytime by Gaming Control. Whether they actually do the inspection or not is a different story.
2. Why risk fines and prison time when you already have a built in edge? The problem with biased dice is that the rules of the game allow a player to exploit any bias, so there is a risk to the casino that they could lose it all to a player hopping 6-1.
I didn't really how your answers answer my questions.. =)
1. Which "devices"? I'm talking about casino dices being unbalanced. It also doesn't answer my question about tracking the results..
2. Question was why is it considered a bad play for the player.
Maybe somebody knows more than me on this subject, but it's a small bunch.
Here are my assertions:
1) Every single die is technically biased -- even a single molecule of oil from the human skin (EG: in fingerprints) has an effect
2) Bias from weight that is enough to have an effect is readily apparent by spinning the dice between the thumb and index finger -- something most box know how to do
3) The easiest bias to obtain is biased from unevenly worn corners (IE: "burning" the corners) .. corners get burned and damaged through regular and normal play
4) Corners get banged up easily by throwing the dice hard onto hard surfaces -- for example the mirrors on a craps table
5) All bias generally causes less evenly distributed outcomes, which is no more likely to help the house than to hurt the house given that most player make bets that the same box numbers continue to appear
In general, there are no biased dice in Las Vegas casinos today that are intentionally biased by the casino.
Casinos are superstitious, though, and they may put dice that are winning too much away more quickly.
Upon asking, the answer I got about what to do with dice is to simply throw them away if the table dumps.
That is the practice that I observe in the casino. There are always brand new dice waiting to be switched in to a table that players are winning too much on!
Quote: whatever61EXTRA QUESTION: is the chance higher to find unbalanced dice and biased roulette in smaller casinos (we have here like some game houses, you can barely call it casino), cause they probably have a more simple equipment and less strict regulations, no?
Yes. At Fiesta Henderson, I brought them a new stick because their stick was literally taped together and falling apart. They said that their last pair of dice had been used for a month! I think this phase has passed, but yes.
Ironically, the house is the one that has the most to lose by not keeping fresh dice with sharp edges and corners into play. However, $3 tables have such higher average edges on the bets because of more rounding down happening, that it's not as big of a concern until a large bankroll player appears.
I've tracked them in the past, and I have the software for the optimum strategy if you find or suspect that they are biased. And NO I don't charge for the software.
If you're tracking them, then record the individual face of each dice, not the sum total. Tracking the sum of both dice is a waste of time.
Quote: MathExtremistThere are actually no GCB regulations in Nevada for casino dice. A casino could technically offer live craps with the dice that come in a Monopoly game.
That's not exactly true. The dice have to be fair, and are subject to inspection and seizure.
Quote: Regulation 5.011 Grounds for Disciplinary Action9. (a) Possessing or permitting to remain in or upon any licensed premises any cards, dice, mechanical device or any other cheating device whatever, the use of which is prohibited by statute or ordinance, or
(b) Conducting, carrying on, operating or dealing any cheating or thieving game or device on the premises, either knowingly or unknowingly, which may have in any manner been marked, tampered with or otherwise placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, which tends to deceive the public or which might make the game more liable to win or lose, or which tends to alter the normal random selection of criteria which determine the results of the game.
Read the whole thing here. Now, if the Monopoly dice were "fair", yes, they could be put into play. But tracking serial numbers or other identifying marks are part of every casino's internal security practices, so it will never happen.
Inspection for compliance, and seizure of gaming devices is part of the job. Note that dice are specifically mentioned. What the test of compliance with "normal random selection" is, when some casinos are putting "washboard" surfaces under their felt, I don't know.Quote: Gaming Control Board Enforcement Division Job Description"Conducts inspections of gaming licensee surveillance systems, inspects various gaming devices including slot machines, cards, dice and seizes items if necessary;"
In order for more sevens to come up, the dice must be biased 180' out of phase from one another.
When you pick two dice out of a group of five dice, it's maybe an interesting logic problem to come up with exactly how the house would bias the dice to make more money.
The only way to effectively do it would be to make the 6 face come up more often.
But if you do that, just place the 8 and buy the 10 and grind grind grind and you're going to win because more 6 faces and fewer 1 faces mean you're going to get a lot more 6-4's 6-2's and fewer 6-1's.
It's just ridiculous to think that casinos are using biased dice intentionally. If the dice are biased in a way to benefit the house, it's only going to work out that way a small percentage of the time depending on which cubes are chosen.
Not when it comes to the roulette wheels.Quote: Buzzard" I have always found gaming to be anal in applying regs.
If you really look at the dice, then you could find the biased ones rather quickly.
Look for dull corners.
Look to see if the name of the casino is engraved to a depth that is below the side face of the dice. If you can feel that the engraved face is significantly below the surface of the dice, then the dice is likely biased. Engraved dice should be smooth on all sides. Defective dice usually come in lots, so if you find one set, then some of the other sets are likely good as well.
-Keyser
Quote: whatever61I didn't really how your answers answer my questions.. =)
1. Which "devices"? I'm talking about casino dices being unbalanced. It also doesn't answer my question about tracking the results..
2. Question was why is it considered a bad play for the player.
1. Dice are considered a "Gambling Device" in the regulations. Just like the Roulette Wheel, or Cards. They are required to provide outcomes in keeping with, "normal random selection" and are subject to inspection and confiscation if they don't. it would not be prudent for a casino to purposely break the regulation in hopes of making more money with dice that come up 6-1 more often than once every 18 rolls on average.
2. It wouldn't be a bad play for the player that recognized the bias (if it was introduced), but since it wouldn't be, the question is moot. Remember that Nevada regulations call for penalties, even if the biased dice are "unknowingly" operated. This is a reason why they are sourced from a reputable manufacturer, with strict tolerances, and not pulled from Monopoly games.
Regarding the regs, yes they are amusing, but you are overstating what's really taking place within the casinos.
The casinos do not intentionally bias the dice, but on occasion they can get bad batches or the dice can become damaged during use.
Thanks! That's getting interesting.. I've watched your YouTube clip, btw, and I've seen something similar before, that's why I got curious about this.
So what would be your action plan?
1. Observe the dice when choosing which pair - can I pick them up and start checking them out, is it considered normal or will it look like I'm looking for biased dice intentionally? Even if I would look for it intentionally, it is maybe because I wanna play with the good one's, so I think there's nothing wrong about it. Or is there?
2. Is there some sort of a table/calculation of what would be the best bets per each bias?
For example: if one of the dice gets more 6, then bet on this, if the dice gets more 1 then bet on this .. this kind of stuff.
3. Based on how many rounds would you make your conclusions? How many rounds are enough to know that it's not a coincidence, but really a bias.
4. Again.. why most reviews write that unbalanced dice is BAD for the player? It seems like it's good on the contrary..
5. Is there a trick to mark each dice (not something illegal, so no physical marking, more like some mind trick =)) ? Since I need to track the results of each dice separately..
If you imagine you are the floor manager, they are CONSTANTLY worried about the dice causing the table to dump. And they don't generally swap the dice out in the middle of a roll. So any time there is a really good roll next time, take a look and you might notice the new dice being prepared so that they can (ideally) be swapped in WITHOUT ANYONE EVEN NOTICING what happened. That is what you want as the pit crew!
It's normal for the table to dump a little at the end of the lifetime of a stick of dice if players are going big multiples on odds and someone picks a cube with a sufficiently burned corner.
Quote: Ayecarumba1. Dice are considered a "Gambling Device" in the regulations. Just like the Roulette Wheel, or Cards. They are required to provide outcomes in keeping with, "normal random selection" and are subject to inspection and confiscation if they don't. it would not be prudent for a casino to purposely break the regulation in hopes of making more money with dice that come up 6-1 more often than once every 18 rolls on average.
2. It wouldn't be a bad play for the player that recognized the bias (if it was introduced), but since it wouldn't be, the question is moot. Remember that Nevada regulations call for penalties, even if the biased dice are "unknowingly" operated. This is a reason why they are sourced from a reputable manufacturer, with strict tolerances, and not pulled from Monopoly games.
1. Ok, got it now.
2. I understand that, however again, some people have a different opinion, such as ALL dice are biased, so I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to go one time and to try to track it, to see if it's really biased or not. Moreover, noone is talking about Nevada. I assume that in Vegas everything is on a much higher level than the casinos where I'm going to (Belgium-Netherlands), so maybe there's a higher chance here..
Quote: whatever611. Ok, got it now.
2. I understand that, however again, some people have a different opinion, such as ALL dice are biased, so I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to go one time and to try to track it, to see if it's really biased or not. Moreover, noone is talking about Nevada. I assume that in Vegas everything is on a much higher level than the casinos where I'm going to (Belgium-Netherlands), so maybe there's a higher chance here..
It is very easy but very labor intensive to determine how a burned corner or added/removed weight to one side affects the cubes.
You need to do tens of thousands of rolls of the die to tell how it is being affected, and ideally on a real craps table.
If you make the burn really extreme, you can get a rough idea with less effort what the effect is.
Try burning off (by rubbing on sandpaper for example) 1/16" or even 1/8" (rounded burn off) a corner of a real casino die and record 5000 rolls to see what outcomes come up more often.
Just using intuition, you can imagine that all of the faces near the rounded corner are going to come up more often. But that's only a guess from my own intuition.
Quote: AhighIt is very easy but very labor intensive to determine how a burned corner or added/removed weight to one side affects the cubes.
You need to do tens of thousands of rolls of the die to tell how it is being affected, and ideally on a real craps table.
If you make the burn really extreme, you can get a rough idea with less effort what the effect is.
Try burning off (by rubbing on sandpaper for example) 1/16" or even 1/8" (rounded burn off) a corner of a real casino die and record 5000 rolls to see what outcomes come up more often.
Just using intuition, you can imagine that all of the faces near the rounded corner are going to come up more often. But that's only a guess from my own intuition.
Why only your intuition, you haven't done such tests yourself? =)
Quote: TIMSPEEDCorrect!
On craps in Nevada, pretty much the casino can do anything they want...
Have to ask if they could offer any of the other Platonic solids with 4, 12, or 20 sides? Or is the word "dice" strictly limited to a six-sided cube?
Quote: AyecarumbaThat's not exactly true. The dice have to be fair, and are subject to inspection and seizure.
Quote: Regulation 5.011 Grounds for Disciplinary Action9. (a) Possessing or permitting to remain in or upon any licensed premises any cards, dice, mechanical device or any other cheating device whatever, the use of which is prohibited by statute or ordinance, or
(b) Conducting, carrying on, operating or dealing any cheating or thieving game or device on the premises, either knowingly or unknowingly, which may have in any manner been marked, tampered with or otherwise placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, which tends to deceive the public or which might make the game more liable to win or lose, or which tends to alter the normal random selection of criteria which determine the results of the game.
Read the whole thing here. Now, if the Monopoly dice were "fair", yes, they could be put into play. But tracking serial numbers or other identifying marks are part of every casino's internal security practices, so it will never happen.
Inspection for compliance, and seizure of gaming devices is part of the job. Note that dice are specifically mentioned. What the test of compliance with "normal random selection" is, when some casinos are putting "washboard" surfaces under their felt, I don't know.
A washboard surface still falls under part (b) as a device if added to a table deemed fair. Old worn out equipment by inference is also covered by (b).
As properly surmised, there appears to be no regulation as to "when" to change the dice, unless a fairness test is requested. That is, there is no regulation that says after x hours, the dice are removed from play.
Separately, I don't know what Casinos are paying per stick of 5 dice, but if eBay is even close, it would appear to be around $20 in single quantity delivered, with usual" prices $12-$13 a stick.
And if true, just how long do you have to rub-rub-rub the dice to the point where you are actually affecting the fairness?
Let's say for example you use the cross-sixes set and you keep the sixes face-up and make long, hard, circles with the aces to the felt. Just how much impact could you have?
Could a team of players, each repeating the process during their turns with the dice, significantly influence the shape of the dice?
Quote: AlanMendelsonI have heard "stories" that casinos don't like it when a shooter rubs the dice on the table because it can "wear down the faces" and alter the dice. Anyone else hear this? And if true, just how long do you have to rub-rub-rub the dice to the point where you are actually affecting the fairness?
It would seem that increasing the static electricity might have more of an effect.
1. The casino has NOTHING to gain by having unbalanced/unfair dice in play. So why would they tolerate an unbalanced die? I don't believe for a second they would.
2. Assuming that some other posters here are correct and the dice do wear unevenly over time, and with use. I would postulate that these small imperfections in the dice have minimal if any real world effect on the ratio of numbers hit. Meaning spotting a trend you can actually take advantage of while betting in the real world is impossible or at best highly improbable. I don't dispute that over some high number of rolls say, 100,000 plus maybe some trends might emerge. But that's just not practical in the real world.
So in conclusion I'd argue that while some unbalanced dice may exist, the OP wanted to know if there was an opportunity to bet them as unbalanced (meaning more 7's). The answer to that has to be, no. If I'm wrong please PM me which casino and I'll be on the next flight to Vegas. :)
Quote: AlanMendelsonCould a team of players, each repeating the process during their turns with the dice, significantly influence the shape of the dice?
Absolutely they could. You would be slightly less obvious than a team that used sliding, but they would still get you if you won enough money.
If you did it just to see if it were possible and not to win a shit ton of money, you would be more likely to get away with it.
I would strongly advise against trying to pull this for big money against the Wynn.
If you took Joker's Wild for $5,000 over a year long period of time, I doubt they would even have the resources to come after you.
Lawyers cost the same amount of money and recovering $5,000 often isn't worth lawyering up. Especially if you are a mom-and-pop operation. Once you get to five or six figures, and/or you hit an operation with money to defend their reputation of not allowing cheaters to take advantage of them, WATCH OUT!!!
Some players are known to "slam" the dice into the mirrors every chance they get knowing that any bias is more likely to help them. But if you bias two dice out of phase of one another, you can screw yourself over.
Slamming two dice, and being smart enough to pick only one of the two dice out of a set later (one banged up and one pristine) is one way to try to get an edge an come across as not knowing what you're doing or leaving reasonable doubt that you were trying to get an edge. You might want to wait until they complain about a short roll or some other complaint to throw the dice really hard into the mirrors to leave reasonable doubt in a court if it gets that far.
Any form of cheating can land you with hefty fines or in jail. I would be very careful if you even come across doing things known to be done by a cheat as you will get labelled very quickly, and it can get your banned from playing in short order!!!
Quote: vendman1Considering how little I know about craps and/or dice I'm finding this thread fascinating. I know Ahigh is the resident dice expert and I've watched several of his videos, and am impressed with both the seriousness of his quest and his patience with the naysayers. Even if to me it seems a bit Quixotic. However, I'd like to bring up a couple of common sense points people seem to be missing.
1. The casino has NOTHING to gain by having unbalanced/unfair dice in play. So why would they tolerate an unbalanced die? I don't believe for a second they would.
2. Assuming that some other posters here are correct and the dice do wear unevenly over time, and with use. I would postulate that these small imperfections in the dice have minimal if any real world effect on the ratio of numbers hit. Meaning spotting a trend you can actually take advantage of while betting in the real world is impossible or at best highly improbable. I don't dispute that over some high number of rolls say, 100,000 plus maybe some trends might emerge. But that's just not practical in the real world.
So in conclusion I'd argue that while some unbalanced dice may exist, the OP wanted to know if there was an opportunity to bet them as unbalanced (meaning more 7's). The answer to that has to be, no. If I'm wrong please PM me which casino and I'll be on the next flight to Vegas. :)
Love the use of the word 'Quixotic'. I've wanted to use that word in describing Ahigh's quest, but was waiting for the perfect moment. Sigh.... you beat me too it!
I agree with all of your points. We have all heard the words 'loaded dice'. It was my recollection, that 35 years ago, I was asked how you would make dice loaded to favor the player. My recollection was to 'load' the '2 face' with more weight on one die, thus having more 5's. HUGE advantage on the comeout roll (disproportionate high numbers 6 through 11, disproportionate low numbers of 2 through 5, and 12). After a point has been made, if 6,8,9,or 10, then big advantage, so take lots of odds. Hard 10, etc.....
I wonder how many of the dice influencing seminar givers use loaded dice.......
Quote: Ahigh
Slamming two dice, and being smart enough to pick only one of the two dice out of a set later (one banged up and one pristine) is one way to try to get an edge an come across as not knowing what you're doing or leaving reasonable doubt that you were trying to get an edge. You might want to wait until they complain about a short roll or some other complaint to throw the dice really hard into the mirrors to leave reasonable doubt in a court if it gets that far.
Any form of cheating can land you with hefty fines or in jail. I would be very careful if you even come across doing things known to be done by a cheat as you will get labelled very quickly, and it can get your banned from playing in short order!!!
I would say you have absolutely no liability if you pick up a 'slammed die' and use it. The die is presented to you for use by an authorized casino employee. It is not your responsibility to check it for fairness.
On the other hand, if you have a razor in your hand and shave it AFTER it is presented to you, I'd say you could be going to the slammer.
The person quizzing the dealers was Wayne at the Silverton.
The one dealer at the Silverton who already knew all this stuff told me after Wayne walked away, "the reason I didn't say anything was because I had already been told not to worry about that stuff and just let the players have a good time as long as the game is not dumping."
He went on to say, "I notice a lot of things that I don't say anything at all about because it's not worth my time to say anything at all about it because it doesn't matter."
Generally, what he was saying is that someone winning big on the game is the only thing that they fear. And just doing things that might possibly lead to winning big is a totally different thing than actually succeeding at winning big. IE: don't sweat the small stuff.
Ahigh, are you talking about throwing the two dice into the mirror in the course of a legal throw? I which case, how would you know where the dice will impact the mirror and how that will affect future throws?
And if you think that rubbing the dice will affect the dice just how many rubs does it take?
Quote: 98ClubsSeparately, I don't know what Casinos are paying per stick of 5 dice, but if eBay is even close, it would appear to be around $20 in single quantity delivered, with usual" prices $12-$13 a stick.
You can get a 5 stick on amazon for under $10 bucks. I imagine Ahigh, if anyone, would know what the casinos pay per-stick in bulk.
At the low end of the scale, and TRUST ME I know and harass them about this, is Alibaba.com.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/208848307/19mm_casino_dice.html
These dice are used by all of the Boyd properties, and they cost a nickel a cube or $0.25 per stick.
You "tell" on these dice are that the pips are not exactly the right size. The pips should be 15/64" in diameter (or just 1/64" less than 1/4"). The pips on these chinese dice are slightly smaller due to the fact that they normally work in millimeters instead of inches.
Real 3/4" dice used in casinos have 1/64" spacing between the pips and the pips are 15/64" in diameter. There is 1/64" between each pip and 1/64" between the pip and the edge of the die.
These cheap Alibaba dice have smaller pips and there is more of a 1:15 ratio between the pip diameter and the spacing between the pip. Easily spotted with practice at which time I often harass them about only being able to afford cubes that cost $0.05 each instead of paying $3/each like a real casino would do.
At the other end of the scale is the Wynn. The Wynn only uses the highest quality dice available. Even their gift shop dice are the highest quality dice available. They care about their image and don't sweat the small stuff when it comes to paying $15/stick to get things nice and fair for everybody.
There's everything in between. In general, Bee and dice manufactured by the Gambler's Supply Store ( http://www.usplayingcard.com/ ) sells dice for about $12/stick in quantities of one, and they go down from there to about $8/stick in large quantities that casinos purchase.
If you want to see which casinos have us playing card company make their dice, just go to the gambler supply store and look in their reject bin. You got everything from Red Rock, to Silverton, Hard Rock Hotel, and so on. You will even find Venetian and Sands property dice in there, but you won't find Wynn dice in there or the most respectable casinos that only use Paulson dice, Paulson tables, and other highest quality highest cost manufacturers.
I'm pretty sure that most places use us playing card company for most of their dice, though. And generally speaking it's just over $1 per cube for real dice.
I do not know if it is true, but I have heard that real casino dice are made from cotton.
The Alibaba dice clearly state that their dice are made from plastic. It is possible that they are all plastic and that what I heard about cotton being used it a myth.
Quote: AcesAndEightsYou can get a 5 stick on amazon for under $10 bucks. I imagine Ahigh, if anyone, would know what the casinos pay per-stick in bulk.
In general these cheap dice are the made-in-china variety. Any so-called 19mm dice are made in China in general. As stated above, I can quickly glance at these dice and tell they are cheap dice, even if nobody else knows the difference, I can, and do, easily spot them.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI don't understand something... Ahigh mentions slamming the dice into the mirror to change the fairness of the dice.
Ahigh, are you talking about throwing the two dice into the mirror in the course of a legal throw? I which case, how would you know where the dice will impact the mirror and how that will affect future throws?
And if you think that rubbing the dice will affect the dice just how many rubs does it take?
You don't know. You want to damage both dice, then later after both dice have been damaged, have the bowl dumped and pick one damaged die and one undamaged die. You will get as many sevens, but hopefully you will get either higher or lower numbers more often than random and you can clean up with big odds bets. You just won't know which box number is hitting more, but in theory, one of the box numbers will be heavier relative to the others.
For example, if the one cube is biased to the six, you will get more 8's, 9's, and 10's and fewer 3's, 4's, and 5's.
The ratio of sevens will remain a constant, however in this scenario.
As far as rubbing, I have no idea "how much" but deformations affect the outcome more readily than improper weighting on a real craps table from what I have learned.
I have spoken with someone who is an expert at this topic, but I only have second hand information.
I generally do not believe I even want to be an expert on how to cheat dice. I would rather be an expert on how to do legal throws to get my bias than how to affect the geometry of the dice to get an edge.
Affecting the geometry is way easier though. I will tell you that much!
Quote: AhighQuote: AcesAndEightsYou can get a 5 stick on amazon for under $10 bucks. I imagine Ahigh, if anyone, would know what the casinos pay per-stick in bulk.
In general these cheap dice are the made-in-china variety. Any so-called 19mm dice are made in China in general. As stated above, I can quickly glance at these dice and tell they are cheap dice, even if nobody else knows the difference, I can, and do, easily spot them.
Damn, and I thought they were nice! Anyway, I got 2 sticks of 5 from this company (Trademark Poker) and I've been happy with them (never even opened the red stick, only the green stick). However, since I decided to stop trying to be a dice influencer, I haven't really used them much. They're not great for board games as the corners are so sharp, they tend to do damage to the actual board!
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: AhighQuote: AcesAndEightsYou can get a 5 stick on amazon for under $10 bucks. I imagine Ahigh, if anyone, would know what the casinos pay per-stick in bulk.
In general these cheap dice are the made-in-china variety. Any so-called 19mm dice are made in China in general. As stated above, I can quickly glance at these dice and tell they are cheap dice, even if nobody else knows the difference, I can, and do, easily spot them.
Damn, and I thought they were nice! Anyway, I got 2 sticks of 5 from this company (Trademark Poker) and I've been happy with them (never even opened the red stick, only the green stick). However, since I decided to stop trying to be a dice influencer, I haven't really used them much. They're not great for board games as the corners are so sharp, they tend to do damage to the actual board!
Looking at the spacing between the pips is generally the only way that I know of to tell the difference.
The difference is pretty subtle. Instead of 15:1 ratio, it's more like 12:1 or 13:1 ratio.
If you see them bringing the dice to the table, you can tell from the foil. If the foil doesn't have a logo on it, they are probably made in China.
You want to see a Paulson Logo, a Bee logo, or some other high quality logo on the foil if you care about the casino using quality dice.
Even the Alibaba dice are fair, otherwise they wouldn't be using them!
They are just CHEAP!!!
Quote: AhighFor example, if the one cube is biased to the six, you will get more 8's, 9's, and 10's and fewer 3's, 4's, and 5's.
Hmmmm....
I generally make place bets and press them in pairs. But based on this conversation, and the above quote, I think that, even without knowing if either die is damaged, then it might be a good idea to press them individually. Whaddaya think?
Quote: AlanMendelsonLet's say for example you use the cross-sixes set and you keep the sixes face-up and make long, hard, circles with the aces to the felt. Just how much impact could you have?
I'd think you'd wear a hole in the felt, long before any detectable variance was caused.
Quote: VenthusI'd think you'd wear a hole in the felt, long before any detectable variance was caused.
If there is interest in this topic, I can do some research into it.
But it doesn't take much material to come off.
It's the sharpness or lack of sharpness, and it has an effect that occurs more quickly than you might imagine.
It's the grabby-ness if you will that you need to quantify, not the weight.
In slow motion, almost every collision is a collision with the corner of a die with the felt or with the rubber.
Not an edge, and not a face.
The details of what each corner is shaped like is the most important detail of the geometry that matters to the outcome.
The end.
Simply look for dice where you can feel that the engraved name of the casino sets below flush, and then track each set where you can feel the defect. When the dice are engraved, the engraving should be filled to bring the side back up flush with the remaing surface area.
If you can, collect a thousand or two k trials, then test for randomness and standard deviation testing. Record the individual number on each cube only. DO NOT ADD THEM TOGETHER.
Even though you won't get thousands of trials for each set of dice, you can get a substantial number of trials from each stick or lot. If the dice tend to be under filled on the engraved side, then several sticks of the dice are likely affected.
-Keyser
When you have a rougher face, you may have more friction as the dice skip across the felt. There's also the issue of the missing mass on the engraved side of the dice. (If the side hasn't been filled back to flush).
