Ahigh is right

I just think it is interesting that this is the only coupon where they are not clear in their meaning.

My problem is not with the idea of the gift, it is how it is presented.

There is no explanation on the coupon as to how it works, only that it is for even money bets on a table game.

A $10 food coupon will get you $10 worth of food. A $10 cash coupon will get you $10 in cash.

Why does a $10 free bet function as a bet of $5?

That is all I am asking.

If the coupon said "$5 free bet", and IF you won, you received $10, I would have no problem with it.

Saying it is a "$10 free bet", and then paying $10 when you win is misleading, to me. That isn't a $10 coupon, it is a $5 coupon marked in a different manner.

I just think they should be clear on their description or their rules.

deleted

No it doesn't. If that was the case you could keep betting it until you lost it. There ARE promotions like that. I read a paper about them recently... I think that they were called "dead chips". They are worth more or less their face value if you are going to gamble enough to lose that many bets anyway (their EV is obviously less since there is a house edge, but if you're going to gamble that much anyway then they may as well be cash)

I have a better idea. Spread around $20-$500 freebet coupons that work like a real bet, but then:
* If it's Tuesday and CM is in a great mood - they are equivalent to US dollars;
* If it's Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, or just not a good Tuesday for the CM - they count as HK dollars;
* If it's Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or a weekday but the bottom line is failing - they are worth their value in Zimbabwe dollars.

anyone here ever get a coupon book from the palms? i was always amused at how they valued each coupon in that book.

I thought this stupid issue played out, who pulled his string this time?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Sorry, I did not mean to imply this was your personal issue.

You didn't, it's one of his "talking points". He's not complaining because it bothers him, he's a protector of novice gamblers everywhere.

Quote: RaleighCraps

What about my point though, that the promotional chip, or the play once coupon, works EXACTLY like the Free Play in Slots?

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer that makes any sense. I had a laundry list of questions that he avoided answering last time around. I finally gave up, the "teach a pig to sing" adage comes to mind. In fact, he flat out told all of us that it was no use arguing with him because he's never change his opinion.

Walk away while you still have your sanity.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Pretty much all of these coupons and promo chips restrict the bets to be even money only.

And I want to reiterate the point of WHY: it's effectively so that they can lie and say that the value of the coupon is twice the actual value.

If they allowed the coupon to work on bets that paid more than even money, then the average coupon value goes up. Something that they do not want.

New customers are often unhappily surprised when they try to bet the coupon on anything but even money. Fewer people then additionally become surprised when they win that the coupon itself isn't "worth anything" as many people seem to point out because they don't replace the coupon with a chip of equal value as to what is marked on the coupon and just put the coupon in the drop box.

And then the other point: the fact that intelligent people on this forum are confused about this is the evidence of the problem.

Is there anyone who feels that all the confusion about the value of the coupons works to the casino's benefit somehow compared to if they just did things in a straightforward way that nobody would have any issues with whatsoever?

I know that coupons have worked this way as long as I remember in Las Vegas. That's part of the problem is that it is ingrained in the Las Vegas "this is how we do it" mindset along with the other drip-pricing and other things that people have just accepted as being "normal" because all of the competing companies do it.

But you know, the thing is that by the time that everybody is doing it, people adjust to the effects in the long term, and any short term benefit wear off.

That's the part that the marketing people don't understand. Long term effects.

Then we are stuck with the positive short term effects being worn off and the long term effects are people are just unhappy with "how things are these days."

Has anybody noticed the difference in air travel and how people are all trying to do everything in carry-on? Remember when more people checked bags instead of trying to put every damn last thing they could into the carry-on?

It's a pervasive thing where marketing people have screwed up our world and we just let it happen because companies BLINDLY enact these policies without any checks and balances as to whether the long term effects are positive or negative to the overall industry. They are effectively letting the air out of the tires and throwing their hands up in the air when the vehicle stops pretending like their marketing techniques have nothing to do with why things aren't working any more.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I thought this stupid issue played out, who pulled his string this time?

You didn't, it's one of his "talking points". He's not complaining because it bothers him, he's a protector of novice gamblers everywhere.

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer that makes any sense. I had a laundry list of questions that he avoided answering last time around. I finally gave up, the "teach a pig to sing" adage comes to mind. In fact, he flat out told all of us that it was no use arguing with him because he's never change his opinion.

Walk away while you still have your sanity.

I believe your opinion is biased on this topic. Your perspective has been shared, and it's the perspective of someone who refuses to contemplate that there could possibly be negative effects at all as far as I am concerned. IE: you are in denial that I might possibly have a point.

In addition to that, it appears you've mistaken RaleighCraps for me (which is somewhat comical). Is it possible that you did this because you think there's only one person in the world who has a problem with how these coupons are marketed?

You explained your position really well when you indicated that you had been trained as a marketing person.

The irony in your assertions about me (or is it RaleighCraps, I'm not sure) is that I am not even trying to protect the novice gamblers, I'm trying to protect the business of gambling by considering the notion that an ethical portrayal of those involved in the business might help the business to earn more money.

I believe that the perspective of you and others like you are that ethics in gambling are not important in order to make money you have to be on the winning side of the deal in the short term and that's it.

You implied that you would be wasting your time explaining the reasoning behind how marketing works.

I feel similarly about trying to explain ethics to you.

Final thought: just believing something doesn't make it true. I think you're believing more than a single falsehood. You might want to root them out if you get some spare time on your hands. They can really bring you down.

The problem that I'm pointing out is absolutely just a tiny portion of the overall problem where people do things without thinking about what the long term effects are on the larger system.

Ahigh,
How do you propose then, that a casino handle the coupons that are 'play until you lose' ?

If you want the casino to value the $25 play once coupon as $12.50, how much should they value the coupon that stays on the table until lost?

Quote: SACR

I just think it is interesting that this is the only coupon where they are not clear in their meaning.

My problem is not with the idea of the gift, it is how it is presented.

There is no explanation on the coupon as to how it works, only that it is for even money bets on a table game.

A $10 food coupon will get you $10 worth of food. A $10 cash coupon will get you $10 in cash.

Why does a $10 free bet function as a bet of $5?

That is all I am asking.

If the coupon said "$5 free bet", and IF you won, you received $10, I would have no problem with it.

Saying it is a "$10 free bet", and then paying $10 when you win is misleading, to me. That isn't a $10 coupon, it is a $5 coupon marked in a different manner.

I just think they should be clear on their description or their rules.

This is a good summary.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Ahigh,
How do you propose then, that a casino handle the coupons that are 'play until you lose' ?

If you want the casino to value the $25 play once coupon as $12.50, how much should they value the coupon that stays on the table until lost?

You know the play until you lose coupons that can be played anywhere I don't have a problem with policies on those.

The problems I have are specifically with the following limitations common with coupons:

* Even money bets only
* Coupon/promotional-chip or whatever is taken away without replacing it with something equal to the value on the coupon when you win

A promotional chip that plays until it loses and can be used on any bet. That's part of Perfect World Casino which unfortunatly does not exist yet. But AHigh is right.

Quote: Ahigh

You know the play until you lose coupons that can be played anywhere I don't have a problem with policies on those.

The problems I have are specifically with the following limitations common with coupons:

* Even money bets only
* Coupon/promotional-chip or whatever is taken away without replacing it with something equal to the value on the coupon when you win

But now you're not being consistent!

If I have a $5 play until I lose coupon, I am only going to get paid a $5 chip. In your examples, you insist I should be getting 2 $5 chips, one for my Win, and one for my original bet. The same as I get when I make a $5 bet. It is a $5 coupon after all. Why should I only accept one $5 chip this time?

Of course none of that makes any sense.
But now your coupons are all behaving differently. How confusing would that be?
And, as I pointed out, Slot Free Play works the same way as the coupon you are complaining is not right.
So now your Slot/Table player is going to have 2 different things happen during redemption.

I think your desire to have things stated as accurately as possible is clouding your judgement on how coupon redemption should operate.
I would say almost everyone here understands how you are valuing the coupon. Most of us don't agree that the mechanics of its usage need to change.

Could the casino do a better job of explaining how the coupon is going to work? Absolutely.
Are many of the first time users perplexed on their initial win? Probably.
Are any of the experienced coupon users confused after their first time? Only the drunk ones, (and the blondes). I was blonde before bald so hold your fire!
Do any of the first time users never return to a casino because of their experience with the coupon? Highly doubt it.

So, in the end, you are really trying to fix something that is not really broken. It may not be 100% accurate in the way the coupon is valued, but the redemption process is easily understood, and it is consistent with other giveaways, like Slot Free Play. So, in the end, it is the best process for 99% of casino patrons. The 1% who desire everything to be 100% accurate to the nth degree will just need to take solace while they get even by shredding their coupons

Quote: RaleighCraps

But now you're not being consistent!

If I have a $5 play until I lose coupon, I am only going to get paid a $5 chip. In your examples, you insist I should be getting 2 $5 chips, one for my Win, and one for my original bet. The same as I get when I make a $5 bet. It is a $5 coupon after all. Why should I only accept one $5 chip this time?

Of course none of that makes any sense.
But now your coupons are all behaving differently. How confusing would that be?
And, as I pointed out, Slot Free Play works the same way as the coupon you are complaining is not right.
So now your Slot/Table player is going to have 2 different things happen during redemption.

I think your desire to have things stated as accurately as possible is clouding your judgement on how coupon redemption should operate.
I would say almost everyone here understands how you are valuing the coupon. Most of us don't agree that the mechanics of its usage need to change.

Could the casino do a better job of explaining how the coupon is going to work? Absolutely.
Are many of the first time users perplexed on their initial win? Probably.
Are any of the experienced coupon users confused after their first time? Only the drunk ones, (and the blondes). I was blonde before bald so hold your fire!
Do any of the first time users never return to a casino because of their experience with the coupon? Highly doubt it.

So, in the end, you are really trying to fix something that is not really broken. It may not be 100% accurate in the way the coupon is valued, but the redemption process is easily understood, and it is consistent with other giveaways, like Slot Free Play. So, in the end, it is the best process for 99% of casino patrons. The 1% who desire everything to be 100% accurate to the nth degree will just need to take solace while they get even by shredding their coupons

No I'm being consistent. To generalize the consistency is the perceived and marked value of the item should not be markedly different than the actual value.

In order to compare whether something is fair, you have to normalize it. It's true that a play-til-you-lose coupon is not worth as much as an actual chip. But the difference in value is generally a small fraction of the marked value (rather than over 50% off). I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. If that means I'm being inconsistent, let me just say that I'm pretty sure nobody is going to have a problem with play-til-you-lose chips/coupons.

I did the math to come up with the liquid value of each of the coupons that are marked twice as high as I think they should be marked.

If you did the math for the play-til-you-lose coupon, those coupons would still be worth roughly double.

And that's where I am basing my comparison. What is marked on the coupon versus what is the liquid value. If it's off by more than ten percent or more, that's where I start to ask questions why.

A player with a play-til-you-lose coupon who gets lucky enough to win on that coupon ten times is not getting as good of a value, but it's not that big of a difference to worry about.

I'll close out by challenging with this: why stop here? Why not pay off the free coupons with more coupons and never exchange them for cash, just free play at the tables? That the direction that this is going, so why not go all the way?

The reason why not is the same reason, just to a larger degree. Either you are giving them money or you aren't. If you're giving them money, admit it, and be up front about it.

If you're not, and you're giving a "free bet" with no opportunity to win money, then just come up with some no-cash-value chips to pay off the coupons with and let them win funny money.

" Why does a $10 free bet function as a bet of $5?" IT IS A FREE $10 BET, DUHHH

Quote: Ahigh

No I'm being consistent. To generalize the consistency is the perceived and marked value of the item should not be markedly different than the actual value.

In order to compare whether something is fair, you have to normalize it. It's true that a play-til-you-lose coupon is not worth as much as an actual chip. But the difference in value is generally a small fraction of the marked value (rather than over 50% off). I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. If that means I'm being inconsistent, let me just say that I'm pretty sure nobody is going to have a problem with play-til-you-lose chips/coupons.

I did the math to come up with the liquid value of each of the coupons that are marked twice as high as I think they should be marked.

If you did the math for the play-til-you-lose coupon, those coupons would still be worth roughly double.

And that's where I am basing my comparison. What is marked on the coupon versus what is the liquid value. If it's off by more than ten percent or more, that's where I start to ask questions why.

A player with a play-til-you-lose coupon who gets lucky enough to win on that coupon ten times is not getting as good of a value, but it's not that big of a difference to worry about.

I'll close out by challenging with this: why stop here? Why not pay off the free coupons with more coupons and never exchange them for cash, just free play at the tables? That the direction that this is going, so why not go all the way?

The reason why not is the same reason, just to a larger degree. Either you are giving them money or you aren't. If you're giving them money, admit it, and be up front about it.

If you're not, and you're giving a "free bet" with no opportunity to win money, then just come up with some no-cash-value chips to pay off the coupons with and let them win funny money.

Again, I think you are getting to caught up in the real value of the coupon, instead of what the coupon represents.
I agree with your value assigned to the coupon. It is not $25 cash. I just believe it to be irrelevant to the whole process.

At this point, we are both wasting our breath (or keystrokes). I doubt anything more can be written that is going to make someone on either side of this discussion move to the other point of view.

If you want to rail against a cause why not take on resort fees? Now that is something that is much more damaging to a Vegas visitor's satisfaction with their visit.

The coupon is worth the full value not half. Here's my proof.

I received a $30 free bet coupon. It was good for even money bets.

I walked over to the roulette table and put it on "RED". The ball landed on "00".

In AC they have the 'en prison' rule. The dealer took the coupon and replaced it with three red chips. ($15).

I took the three chips and walked over to the craps table.

The FTC is already taking on that one. I provided a link already. Not sure you read that.

Truly, that's just more evidence of things that are being done wrong against the consumer.

I would even prefer that nobody gets any free bet coupons at all to this scenario. Even when it doesn't affect me, I still watch as people put free bet coupons in the wrong place all the time and have to listen to these conversations multiple times a week. It annoys me even though I know how to deal with it, I have to watch those who don't and listen to all the arguing.

It's pretty ridiculous that this has gone on as long as it has.

But I am resigned to the fact that nobody gives a rat's ass or has any pride in the work they do, especially in marketing.

I'll just shut up now.

Quote: FatGeezus

The coupon is worth the full value not half. Here's my proof.

I received a $30 free bet coupon. It was good for even money bets.

I walked over to the roulette table and put it on "RED". The ball landed on "00".

In AC they have the 'en prison' rule. The dealer took the coupon and replaced it with three red chips. ($15).

I took the three chips and walked over to the craps table.

Talking about Vegas. But nice to hear some places don't suck.

" But I am resigned to the fact that nobody gives a rat's ass or has any pride in the work they do, especially in marketing."

How enlightening !

Quote: RaleighCraps

But now you're not being consistent!

If I have a $5 play until I lose coupon, I am only going to get paid a $5 chip. In your examples, you insist I should be getting 2 $5 chips, one for my Win, and one for my original bet. The same as I get when I make a $5 bet. It is a $5 coupon after all. Why should I only accept one $5 chip this time?

Of course none of that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense. If you bet a $5 chip and win, you get paid a $5 chip and get to keep your original bet (the $5 chip). If you bet a $5 "play until you lose" coupon and win, you get paid a $5 chip and get to keep your original bet (the coupon). Therefore, it functions the same as $5, with the only difference being that you can't cash it out. As for its actual value, that depends on how you want to calculate it, but, to a gambler, its value is the full face value.

The problem with regular free bet coupons is that they do not work like regular bets: you do not get to keep your original bet when you win. It also allows casinos (and places that sell "fun books") to engage in deceptive marketing campaigns. Pay $20 for $30 in free bet coupons! Sounds like a good deal, right? Nope, they are taking advantage of people who don't know that $30 in free bet coupons are not worth $30. I don't see how anyone could think that this is NOT deceptive marketing.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Its nothing more than a "free bet" without putting up and money. How hard is that to comprehend? Win, get paid. Lose, lose nothing.

I assume this means you don't understand the conversation? The question is not free versus non free. The question is marked value being inflated versus not being inflated. It is done different ways in different casinos. But Las Vegas consistently inflates the values by 100%.

Read the rest of the thread if you're having a hard time following along with the discussion.

We know that they are free.

deleted

Quote: Buzzard

" Why does a $10 free bet function as a bet of $5?" IT IS A FREE $10 BET, DUHHH

If it was a free $10 bet, when you win, you would receive $10 for your winning, and $10 for your bet. You would have $20.

The way it is now, if you win, you receive $10. That is the same as if you made a $5 bet and won, you would have $10 sitting on the felt.

That is why a $10 free bet coupon is really only worth $5.

I'm not on the holy war Ahigh is about this, I'm simply agreeing with his point that it is misleading.

If I had ever won such a bet, and was only paid $10 instead of $20, I would be annoyed.

Would it keep me from enjoying myself? No. I have a good time when I'm in the casino.

I just think it is a little ridiculous that every other coupon they have is very clear at what their value is, and this one coupon promotion is misleading.

I also agree that these coupons are misleading, but once you figure it out the first time it's easy to determine the true value.

I went on a Las Vegas junket back in 1989, and part of the offer were match play chips. Imagine my surprise when a chip with a non-cash value of $5 was scooped up on my first win and just replaced with a casino chip of $5. It significantly decreased my perceived value of the junket.

On the other hand, I don't have a huge issue with it, I learned my lesson, and I would hope most people would only be fooled once.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Every one that I have had has a disclaimer of "No Cash Value"

YOU are the one that doesn't understand them.

Explain to me what it is that I don't understand, please, sir.

Quote: Ahigh

I believe your opinion is biased on this topic.

As is yours.

Quote: Ahigh

Your perspective has been shared, and it's the perspective of someone who refuses to contemplate that there could possibly be negative effects at all as far as I am concerned. IE: you are in denial that I might possibly have a point.

Not at all. As I said, reading comprehension is apparently not your strongest trait. What I said was that point or no point it doesn't matter.

Quote: Ahigh

In addition to that, it appears you've mistaken RaleighCraps for me (which is somewhat comical).

Not at all. My post was addressed to RaleighCraps, no confusion on my part at all. That you couldn't follow along is the comical part.

Quote: Ahigh

Is it possible that you did this because you think there's only one person in the world who has a problem with how these coupons are marketed?

Is it possible for you to be any more condescending than you already are?

Quote: Ahigh

You explained your position really well when you indicated that you had been trained as a marketing person.

The irony in your assertions about me (or is it RaleighCraps, I'm not sure) is that I am not even trying to protect the novice gamblers, I'm trying to protect the business of gambling by considering the notion that an ethical portrayal of those involved in the business might help the business to earn more money.

It's difficult to have a rational discussion when you keep changing your stated goals. Every time someone pins down the absurdity of what you've been asserting you tells us no, no, no that's not what you're saying. I expect you to remain consistent in that regard no matter how long this goes on.

Quote: Ahigh

I believe that the perspective of you and others like you are that ethics in gambling are not important in order to make money you have to be on the winning side of the deal in the short term and that's it.

Ok, then we can safely add this to your list of incorrect beliefs. No problem, this is the internet we have lots of room.

Quote: Ahigh

You implied that you would be wasting your time explaining the reasoning behind how marketing works.

I'm not going to bother digging up the quote because I just don't care enough, but what I meant, if it wasn't clear, was that it would take a lengthy dissertation that I doubted anyone would read. However, for anyone interested I subscribe to the Seth Godin school of marketing and it's on the net for anyone that wants to peruse it in greater depth. He's also a prolific author with many published books, many available at your local library. If you think you understand my take of marketing ethics you should educate yourself.

Quote: Ahigh

I feel similarly about trying to explain ethics to you.

That's funny.

Quote: Ahigh

Final thought: just believing something doesn't make it true. I think you're believing more than a single falsehood. You might want to root them out if you get some spare time on your hands. They can really bring you down.

Back at you, friend.

Quote: Ahigh

The problem that I'm pointing out is absolutely just a tiny portion of the overall problem where people do things without thinking about what the long term effects are on the larger system.

The problem I was pointing out (to RaleighCraps or anyone else that values their sanity) is that regardless of the obvious waste of time this topic is, you continue to "crap up" the forum raving about it, and that anyone that didn't want to be sucked into the vortex of your nonsense should not engage.

I would absolutely be fine with having this discussion with a rational person, one who has stated their position and stays with it, you are not that person. It would also be nice to have points backed up with data, your attempt at doing so didn't meet my criteria for success. My perspective comes from spending 40+ hours a week in a casino and hearing from so many gamblers that they don't believe a push is a win. This is largely why I don't think people are nearly as confused, and thus bitter toward the gaming industry as you'd apparently like to believe. That, combined with, I think that most people look at a gift as a gift and aren't worried about what it's "cash value" is, or how to liquidate it to maximize their gain, is why I don't think there's a problem.

Now, I have one more response to make and then I'm going to do the only sensible thing and unsubscribe from this thread and let you and your ego have the last word. With any luck this thread will quickly sputter to a stop like the last one did.

Quote: Ahigh

It's pretty ridiculous that this has gone on as long as it has.

Agreed.

Quote: Ahigh

But I am resigned to the fact that nobody gives a rat's ass or has any pride in the work they do, especially in marketing.

Whatever.

Quote: Ahigh

I'll just shut up now.

I don't believe you. Oh look, it took a little more than a minute after you posted the above before you responded again.

I don't think you're qualified to explain ethics to anyone, at least not until you can demonstrate that you know how to keep your word.

Quote: SACR

If it was a free $10 bet, when you win, you would receive $10 for your winning, and $10 for your bet. You would have $20.

Not if it's only a single free bet. If the coupon is good for as many bets as you can win with it, that's essentially what you have. But if I let you borrow $10 to make a bet and you win, you have $10 after you return my money. That's how a single-play free bet coupon works too.

I agree that the EV of a single free $10 bet is worth about $5, but it's not the *same* as a $5 chip unless you restrict it to even-money wagers only. If you did that, and you printed a $5 coupon that was "worth one bet and also redeemable for face-value on win" then it would be equivalent to the way $10 free bets work today.

But I don't think it's misleading, just confusing. I pointed out earlier that a $10 free bet is where the casino gives you $10 in action, not $10 in bankroll. If you've ever banked a player-banked card game, you'll understand how that works. When resolving bets against a player bank, your action depletes regardless of whether you win or lose. The same thing is true with the coupon -- once you've bet it, your $10 in action is through. Whether you win or lose is immaterial.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Is it possible for you to be any more condescending than you already are?

What is the point of this question?

You have insulted me, and your accusation about my "reading comprehension" cannot be taken in any way other than as an insult to me personally.

I didn't start this thread, titled "Ahigh is right."

So since you think this is all about ego, let me just say it's not.

What it's about is about how you and other people trained in market techniques are in denial about the negative effects they are having as a result of their poor choices in methods of marketing things.

You're just in denial about it. And for that I am sorry.

You and others are the one(s) that wants to change the topic. The topic isn't whether or not people like getting free stuff.

The topic is whether or not it is okay to deceive people through marketing.

I personally believe that YOU THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY 100% ethical to deceive people through marketing.

Your saying "it doesn't matter" is just a cop out for not wanting to admit that you believe this. Otherwise you could have just agreed with me. Instead you just sideline my point saying "it doesn't matter."

Not exactly the same as a freebet coupon, but I ran into a similar confusion regarding promo chips a few months back-- I ended up playing them on odds at craps, after the table gave the go-ahead, and was tremendously soured to find that the chips were replaced with live chips, and not even at odds. It rather dampened my mood and I immediately walked from the table. Ultimately, it came down to my misunderstanding of how they worked: all my previous experience with bonus chips were non-negs/'play-until-you-lose' versions.

Quote: Venthus

I ended up playing them on odds at craps, after the table gave the go-ahead, and was tremendously soured to find that the chips were replaced with live chips, and not even at odds.

If they were turned into regular chips, couldn't you just take down those chips and cash them at the cage? That would mean arriving at the OP's grail--cash for full face value.

Quote: SanchoPanza

If they were turned into regular chips, couldn't you just take down those chips and cash them at the cage? That would mean arriving at the OP's grail--cash for full face value.

Sure-- but 5+20 on a 9 would've paid 5+30. Instead, I was left with 5+20 in real chips, effectively short-changing me by 10. Had I known that, I would've put promo-5 on pass and real-20 on odds. While, yes, I came out ahead of where I started, it threw me off unpleasantly.

Quote: MathExtremist

Not if it's only a single free bet. If the coupon is good for as many bets as you can win with it, that's essentially what you have. But if I let you borrow $10 to make a bet and you win, you have $10 after you return my money. That's how a single-play free bet coupon works too.

I agree that the EV of a single free $10 bet is worth about $5, but it's not the *same* as a $5 chip unless you restrict it to even-money wagers only. If you did that, and you printed a $5 coupon that was "worth one bet and also redeemable for face-value on win" then it would be equivalent to the way $10 free bets work today.

But I don't think it's misleading, just confusing. I pointed out earlier that a $10 free bet is where the casino gives you $10 in action, not $10 in bankroll. If you've ever banked a player-banked card game, you'll understand how that works. When resolving bets against a player bank, your action depletes regardless of whether you win or lose. The same thing is true with the coupon -- once you've bet it, your $10 in action is through. Whether you win or lose is immaterial.

See, if the coupon said "Free $10 action bet", I would be okay with that. With the coupon labeled "Free $10 bet", it looks like you are making a bet of $10, when in reality you are making a bet of $5, in the hopes of winning $10.

Like I have said before, my issue is with how they label the coupon.

Quote: Venthus

Sure-- but 5+20 on a 9 would've paid 5+30. Instead, I was left with 5+20 in real chips, effectively short-changing me by 10. Had I known that, I would've put promo-5 on pass and real-20 on odds. While, yes, I came out ahead of where I started, it threw me off unpleasantly.

I would have been similarly pissed.

Did they at least tell you the odds would only pay at even money? If a dealer had told me that when I set my odds, I would be okay with it, because at least you are informed.

This is a completely different area of marketing, but here's a place that bucks the common trend of inflating perceived value.

The newest camera from Point Grey is the "Black Fly Camera" and they advertise "starting at $399."

But listen to this presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MvgXTmT00w&feature=youtu.be&t=8m47s

This is the complete opposite of a traditional marketing campaign where you expect to pay more from the "starting price" and have to dig to find out that when you add this that and the other it's not affordable.

This is so rare, I had to share on this thread as it relates to the point of "conventional wisdom" of marketing.

I was really happy that the most capable one is the one that's $399 and it may lead to a sale for me, as I am happier when I find out that $399 gets the one I am interested in after starting to dig in based on an attractive price of $399 that's only for a version that generally is not as desirable as the one that most people will want.

Quote: SACR

I would have been similarly pissed.

Did they at least tell you the odds would only pay at even money? If a dealer had told me that when I set my odds, I would be okay with it, because at least you are informed.

Whoever was manning the bets on that side said they had to check if they could take promo chips on anything other than the field, but one of the higher-ups cleared it. At no point was I told, until after, that they only paid even.

Quote: Venthus

Whoever was manning the bets on that side said they had to check if they could take promo chips on anything other than the field, but one of the higher-ups cleared it. At no point was I told, until after, that they only paid even.

That is poor service right there.

Today, at the Silverton, a guy was there from Detroit. He was shooting from the far end. He made a comment how long the table was.

They told him about eye level as his shots were a couple feet too high.

After that, Bridget batted the dice with her stick in mid flight.

I was so aghast at that move I had to leave.

I said "I'm not sticking around for this."

I had to go to the restroom first, and I remembered they were having a serious problem in the restroom. It smelled so bad (not just a poop left behind, a serious plumbing problem) they should have had the whole restroom sealed off. It was serious gag reflex.

I cruised back by the table on the way out to tell them that the restroom smelled so badly that it was automatic gag reflex.

They said, "there are other restrooms," and I was all "yeah I know."

But aside from not having a real good point here, ya know, I think it's important to remember who the customer is. Yeah.

Sometimes dealers and casinos just think keeping people happy just means they have to work harder and/or don't care if they do things that make you want to puke and leave!

My point wasn't that I couldn't find a restroom. It was that they allowed me to go into a restroom that stinks so badly I might not ever want to return!!!

Same thing with the routine that Bridget did. That just was totally unacceptable. Period!!!

So did she call NO ROLL when she batted the dice out of the air ?

Nope. Everyone was shocked. She made the call and said something like "I just put them up above eye level to see if you could keep them low enough."

Which was totally bullshit, because she batted at them like a baseball player hitting them both. One landed not even halfway down the table.

It was the most unprofessional thing I have ever seen a stick person do before.

Bridget is known for being a little socially inept (in my humble opinion) so this wasn't out of character for her, and I'm sure she thought it was alright.

But that is half the problem with Bridget.

If anybody sees her or knows who I am talking about, feel free to let her know you heard about her batting practice.

Not cool!!!!

I find it hilarious.

I saw it happen by accident at the Beau. The stick was pulling his stick back in when the shooter quickly threw the dice. the stick hit one of the die and it flew a good 50' or more. Pretty dang funny.
I also saw the stick snap the stick to the upright position, only to lose his handle on it, and the stick flew about 10' behind him.
He started to follow the stick, but then realized the dice were out, and that was his job. Meanwhile the box was laughing hysterically.

The Strat has had some of the worst people I've seen-- I typically end up standing at the second or third spot from the stickman which, for me, is an easy spot to throw from, place bets and watch the action. And it's only been there that I've gotten hit by the stick, multiple times, by different people.

And, for a slightly more positive stickman story... I was over at The D, put out a few chips onto the table in the area of Don't Come, and it pretty much went as follows, with lines largely alternating between me and the stickman:
'Six and eight. ...Six and eight.'
'Dice are out. ... 3; pay the don'ts.'
... *collects chips* 'ON THE SIX AND EIGHT. HELLO?'
'Dice are out. ... 12 boxcars.'
'ON THE [expletive] SIX AND EIGHT.'
'Okay, I've got ya. Dice are out. ... 6, hard six.'
Stickman moves my chips onto the six and eight and smacks the hand of the dealer; 'LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS. Pay him.'

Graveyard crews are known to run scams where they do things like this for certain players in exchange for tips. If you got paid on the DC for a bet that was supposed to be on the six and eight, you could have been getting a come-on from the dealers to play their scam where you tip them to book a verbal bet where one dealer is supposedly not paying attention, the boxman is gone, and the stick man corrects the mistake of the dealer not paying attention only if it is to your advantage.

Generally speaking, two men only on a craps table with one player at graveyard is exposure to the house. If the action is small enough, the boxman is probably goofing off and doesn't care, and the surveillance doesn't have audio, so as long as it looks okay, they can often get away with it.

I have absolutely never participated in any scam like this before, but what you are describing sounds like dealers scamming for toks expecting you to be a little wise to these type of scams to me.

People get cuffed and stuffed for lesser offenses, so be careful not to unwittingly fall into this type of trap!

Just curious was it one dealer, one stick, and no other players, no boxman in earshot by chance? That place being a loud casino may be conducive for them operating this type of scam.

Quote: Ahigh

Just curious was it one dealer, one stick, and no other players, no boxman in earshot by chance? That place being a loud casino may be conducive for them operating this type of scam.

Loud is an understatement! My first time at the D in October, it was nearly impossible to even tell the dealers where you wanted your bets, the music was so $#*!ing loud.

Sorry to interrupt, but back to the topic of the value of free bet coupons ...

I have pretty much stayed out of the discussions in this thread and its predecessor, and I probably didn't read every post. My opinion has been that I understood how the coupons I had received should work, and I didn't see anything to get upset about.

However, the coupons I have used in the past were match play coupons, and today I received in the mail a booklet of $15 free bet coupons from Hollywood St. Louis. I don't plan to get to St. Louis while these are valid, but the discussions on this forum have been sufficient that I decided to read the fine print on the back of these coupons. Here is what I think is the relevant part, but I'll type it all in (or post an image) if anyone needs to read it all.

Quote:

Valid for only one win/loss decision on a single wager position. Coupon remains in play in case of a tie. Non-winning voucher wagers will be removed from action. On winning wagers, wagers will be paid and coupon will be replaced with gaming chips.

I guess I have to admit that I can see how someone could interpret the bold font (which I added) sentence as having two parts: (1) the wager would be paid, then (2) the coupon would be replaced with gaming chips. And I see how someone could easily expect those two parts to each involve the dealer presenting $15 of chips to the winning player, who would walk away with $30 in place of their coupon.

Is this the way that the rules on free play coupons are usually worded? If so, then I guess I concede that there could be confusion and that the casino should be clearer about what they mean.

By the way, I see nothing in the rules for these particular coupons that indicates that they are restricted to even-money bets. As far as I can see, they could be used for a single number at roulette, and if the right number came up it should pay $525 or maybe $540, depending on the interpretation of the bold sentence.

deleted

Quote: Doc

Sorry to interrupt, but back to the topic of the value of free bet coupons ...

I have pretty much stayed out of the discussions in this thread and its predecessor, and I probably didn't read every post. My opinion has been that I understood how the coupons I had received should work, and I didn't see anything to get upset about.

However, the coupons I have used in the past were match play coupons, and today I received in the mail a booklet of $15 free bet coupons from Hollywood St. Louis. I don't plan to get to St. Louis while these are valid, but the discussions on this forum have been sufficient that I decided to read the fine print on the back of these coupons. Here is what I think is the relevant part, but I'll type it all in (or post an image) if anyone needs to read it all.

Quote:

Valid for only one win/loss decision on a single wager position. Coupon remains in play in case of a tie. Non-winning voucher wagers will be removed from action. On winning wagers, wagers will be paid and coupon will be replaced with gaming chips.

I guess I have to admit that I can see how someone could interpret the bold font (which I added) sentence as having two parts: (1) the wager would be paid, then (2) the coupon would be replaced with gaming chips. And I see how someone could easily expect those two parts to each involve the dealer presenting $15 of chips to the winning player, who would walk away with $30 in place of their coupon.

Is this the way that the rules on free play coupons are usually worded? If so, then I guess I concede that there could be confusion and that the casino should be clearer about what they mean.

By the way, I see nothing in the rules for these particular coupons that indicates that they are restricted to even-money bets. As far as I can see, they could be used for a single number at roulette, and if the right number came up it should pay $525 or maybe $540, depending on the interpretation of the bold sentence.

I don't think the fact that they are only allowed for even money bets is an issue, because that is clearly delineated on the back of coupons I have received.

My issue is that they say they are for a bet amount that is actually a bet of half of that amount.

Simple, really.