Ahigh is right
Quote: SACRMy issue is that they say they are for a bet amount that is actually a bet of half of that amount.
Simple, really.
I'm beginning to suspect that you are starting to weasel on your own terms. OK, the full terms of the coupons that I received are shown below for all to see. On the other side, it says "$15 Free Bet". If this coupon were used all by itself for an even-money bet, say "Red" at roulette, what do you think would happen?
(a) If the result were something other than "Red", what would happen and how much money would you lose?
(b) If the result were "Red", how much money do you think you would receive when they take the coupon?
(c) What do you think is the expected value of that coupon wager?
(d) How is that EV different (better or worse) than the EV of the house loaning you for free some $15 in chips for you to make a one-time bet? Would you not consider a free loan of $15 in chips for one bet to be a genuine $15 free bet?
Win or lose you are required to return to them the coupon (in one case) or the loaned $15 in chips (in the other case) after the wager is resolved.
The only difference I can see is whether the phrase, "wagers will be paid and coupon will be replaced with gaming chips" can be interpreted that they would pay $15 in winnings plus replace the coupon (or loaned chips) with $15 in additional chips if you won. That seems unlikely to me, but I have said I concede that someone might read these words that way, and the casino should express that phrase more clearly.
Quote: DocI'm beginning to suspect that you are starting to weasel on your own terms. OK, the full terms of the coupons that I received are shown below for all to see. On the other side, it says "$15 Free Bet". If this coupon were used all by itself for an even-money bet, say "Red" at roulette, what do you think would happen?
(a) If the result were something other than "Red", what would happen and how much money would you lose?
(b) If the result were "Red", how much money do you think you would receive when they take the coupon?
(c) What do you think is the expected value of that coupon wager?
(d) How is that EV different (better or worse) than the EV of the house loaning you for free some $15 in chips for you to make a one-time bet? Would you not consider a free loan of $15 in chips for one bet to be a genuine $15 free bet?
Win or lose you are required to return to them the coupon (in one case) or the loaned $15 in chips (in the other case) after the wager is resolved.
The only difference I can see is whether the phrase, "wagers will be paid and coupon will be replaced with gaming chips" can be interpreted that they would pay $15 in winnings plus replace the coupon (or loaned chips) with $15 in additional chips if you won. That seems unlikely to me, but I have said I concede that someone might read these words that way, and the casino should express that phrase more clearly.
I'm not "weaseling" out of a damn thing. I've been very clear since I began this post of my issue, and that is that the coupon can be misleading. That is why I said Ahigh is right.
If the coupon said, "Make a bet and if you win it, you receive $10", I would have no issue with it. However, it says $10 free bet. But it isn't a free bet of $10, if it was a free bet of $10, you would receive $20 after winning, $10 for the bet, and $10 for the win. The coupon is worth half of its value, because if you make a bet of $5 and you win, you receive $10. That is how what the coupon says (that it is a bet of $10) is misleading.
I really don't see how I can make this any clearer.
As I have said before, it isn't enough to make someone quit going to a casino, because it is a freebie from marketing, but is it misleading? Yes.
Your coupon gives more detail than many others I have seen. Do you really think every coupon is just like that one?
Quote: SACR...if it was a free bet of $10, you would receive $20 after winning, $10 for the bet, and $10 for the win.
Every time I have ever won a $10 even-money bet I received $10, not $20. It appears you have some difficulty with the printed phrase "Valid for only one win/loss decision." After you win or lose the wager, the coupon is expired and worthless. I have already conceded that there is one other sentence that could/should be worded more clearly.
Quote: SACRYour coupon gives more detail than many others I have seen. Do you really think every coupon is just like that one?
I have no idea. I just posted this one so that this thread would have a specific basis for discussing coupon wording. I almost never use coupons for anything, and I plan to throw this booklet of them away. I wouldn't have it to post except when it came in the mail, I remembered this thread and took the time to read the terms before tossing the coupons.
What is missing is a revolt where casinos who do these kinds of things are given the message that they are losing business for this behavior.
This thread illustrates the point that many people when confronted directly by this issue concede not to look a gift horse in the mouth, and the issue is over. Ultimately, this is the mental state of mind from which the casinos are capitalizing, and if it is good business sense to take advantage of people's way of thinking, that is what is going to happen.
I may just have to take the attitude of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and find other instances of this where I can cash in on it myself instead of calling out those who I feel are taking unfair advantage of the feeble minded who are misled.
The concept of a local Las Vegas sense of pride in the city you live in just is not a reality. You can't be proud to live here, basically. The only pride is that you have endless entertainment at your fingertips.
I am officially on a mission to make a bunch of money and to get off my moral high horse. And if I have to step on a couple of losers to get there, let them lose!
They still played the bet the same way, once you put in anywhere on the table after they paid it off, they took the paper bet. You didn't get to keep the bet up, but you weren't stuck making an even money bet on the pass line, like they do now! If I do remember correctly the Sahara would keep up the bet and you could use it again to win as long as the bet didn’t fall.
All the casinos here changed the way they were allowing you to play the bet, at about the same time. I've seen more players lose money because of these paper bets, because they come into the casino when they get them, with their money! One day when I was at Ahigh's new favorite casino, a player walked up to the table and the dealers all asked where he had been.
The player went on to explain that the casino had stopped sending him his so-called free bets and he had stopped playing there.
He had just got one in the mail and he was there to play his so-called free bet, he bought in for $700 dollars, if I remember correctly, although it might have been $750, anyway he went on to lose all his money, but he had fun doing it!!!!!! His so-called free bet was for $15, what a joke, when he bought in I thought that I was going to see a high free bet. So the so-called free bet cost him all the money that he brought into the casino with him!
The first thing anybody has to learn, is there is nothing in life free, even in death it cost you to be put in the ground! Casinos will do anything they can to get you in their doors, if you are a local you get every silly promotion they can send you. Play on a certain day you get 3x's points for your comp's. Come in on a Friday-night and if you play some type of game you get one so-called free ticket for a drawing.
Cash your paycheck and you get a free spin of a computer monitor to win money, one of the last ones I got for the Aliante Casino, was pull taps that you had to open at the casino to win. I don't remember how many pull taps there were on that promotion, I think it might have been 6 or 8 of them.
As soon as I got it I opened every one of them, to see what they had under them. I wasn't about to get in my car and drive to their casino to open these stupid things.
The most they had under them was $5 in free slot play or one $5 in cash one! Aliante is about 25 miles from my house, I would have spent more in gas to get there then what I would have won! There has been many things written about these so-called free bets or promotion the casinos give you.
Some of these writers want you to believe they are a good thing and a way that you can win, If you don't play them you are throwing away money!
The casinos know that if they can get you in their doors you are most likely going to lose money, that is why they send out all of their junk, lets also look at all the junk they give away to get you in there doors, you all should know what I'm writing about if you live anywhere near a casino, the free jacket if you have so many points, the free light bulbs, the free snow scraper if you live in Canada, the free flashlight and the list goes on and on. It's all junk, that they buy for pennies.
While playing craps one day one of the guys said Rick you should get a set of these free drill bits that they are giving out, at the time I thought what the hell I only have to walk over and pick them up I might as well do it. What a waste of time that little walk turned out to be. The first time I tried to use them they all burned up. They wouldn't cut anything; they were cheap junk that didn't last using them one time.
Complain if you must about these so-called free bets, but remember they are only giving you them to get you into their casino, so they can take your money! If you do get something that you can win money on and you are playing in that casino, use the bet, but don't go out of your way to do it!
Yes, Ahigh is right about these stupid free bets they give away in the casinos, but they still get him in the door if he is going out of his way to play them.
Quote: Doc
I would expect that coupon, on a winning $15 even-money wager, to do exactly as it says: pay $15 and be replaced with $15 in chips, for a total of $30 back to you. That's what "and" means -- not one or the other. Paying $15 in chips and removing the coupon is very different from paying $15 in chips and replacing the coupon with $15 in chips. Does the casino do the former? If so, the language is incorrect. Not just misleading, but incorrect.
Edit: they could correct the language by saying something like "On winning wagers, the wager will be paid by replacing the coupon with gaming chips."
Maybe coupons with scratch and sniff.
SMELLS LIKE A WINNER!!!!
Quote: DocEvery time I have ever won a $10 even-money bet I received $10, not $20. It appears you have some difficulty with the printed phrase "Valid for only one win/loss decision." After you win or lose the wager, the coupon is expired and worthless. I have already conceded that there is one other sentence that could/should be worded more clearly.
No, I have clearly stated several times what my problem with the wording is.
When you made a $10 even-money bet, did they just pound the table like it was a push, and not give you any money? Or did they pay you $10, so you now had $20, the amount of your bet and your paid winnings?
A $10 coupon for food gets you $10 worth of food. A $10 cash coupon will get you a $10 bill. However, a "free bet" coupon will only get you the amount listed on the coupon, therefore, it is a free bet for half of its value.
If I bet $10 on the field, and a 9 rolls, I expect to receive $10 for my winnings. I will then have $20 on the field.
If I bet this coupon on the field (if that was allowed), I would just receive $10 for that same 9 roll. That means the coupon is really worth $5 as a bet, not $10.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThey are worth the EXPECTED VALUE of placing the bet. Take a $10 freebet to single zero roulette and bet it on red. Its worth 18/37 or approximately $4.86.
But the expected value of placing that bet is -$0.27.
The expected return of that bet is $9.73.
Did you mean the positive component of the expected value?
I have, several times, conceded that this particular coupon that I posted has wording that could be interpreted in just the way you would like, and I said that I think they should be clearer. MathExtremist has stated his interpretation that this particular coupon is already clear and means just what you would like for it to mean. I don't know what the Hollywood St. Louis folks think these words mean. I'd probably be willing to play these coupons and find out, but I don't plan to be in St. Louis before they expire, so I'm throwing them out. If you get a mailer, take the coupons to St. Louis and let us know how it works out this time.
Edit: Slow post.
Quote: DocIf it wins, you get paid the $10 or $15 or whatever as winnings, which is every bit as much as they would have paid you if you had put your own chips up there.
No, they would've paid me $20 or $30 respectively.
Once you bet the chips, they're a sunk cost. Not taking them outright is just a formality.
Rich at Fiesta H. leaves player-provided change for even payouts on the layout as a tip (i.e., he doesn't bring it back into his stacks). It's kind of shocking, which I one reason why I don't like to play there much recently. (I take care of the dealers, but not in proportion to what they think I should tip based on the rare wins they've seen me get there.)Quote: AhighJust curious was it one dealer, one stick, and no other players, no boxman in earshot by chance? That place being a loud casino may be conducive for them operating this type of scam.
Quote: Doc
Nothing wrong or misleading about this coupon.
- "Valid for ONE win/loss decision" - which exactly means THAT - they take the ticket on a win or a loss.
- PLUS they let it ride - in case of a tie.
- "On winning wagers, wagers will be paid, and coupon REPLACED with gaming chips.
Look, if you went to a Supermarket with a coupon for "Free 32 oz. can of Maxwell house coffee worth a $6.50 value!"
- They TAKE the coupon AND they give you a free can of coffee. That's it.
- They do NOT let you keep the coupon, nor do they give you TWO cans of Coffee, NOR do they give you a Free can off Coffee - PLUS $6.50 in cash value, either.
Face value is a can of coffee, AND they take the coupon. Same in a casino. They take the free bet ticket, and they pay you the stated amount if it wins.
Free bet it is. costs you no money for the action.
Now, however, I have been assured by both MathExtremist and Paigowdan, two long-term members in very good standing here, that there is nothing unclear about what this particular coupon says will be paid if a wager with the coupon wins. Unfortunately, they disagree on what it clearly says.
In my opinion, the printed words agree with MathExtremist while I anticipate that Hollywood St. Louis would agree with Paigowdan.
Dec 21 is longest night of the year. Also my anniversary. 44 years today, Josie deserves the Nobel peace prize !
Quote: bwWould be clearer to say on winning wagers coupon will be taken and replaced by gambling chips, wagers will be paid and coupon replaced by gambling chips sounds like a very different thing.
The wording is poor. (This is a casino, not a publishing house.)
Adding that wagers would be paid and the ticket replaced with gaming chips kind of implies a double action, when it is describing an entire single action, should be worded as:
Losing tickets are taken as losses.
Winning tickets are replaced with gaming chips for the face amount of the coupon only, with the coupon taken.
Tickets that result in a tie are not taken, and may remain in action for the next round.
I do not think they meant to be confusing; sometimes trying too hard to be thorough and clear just makes the end result less clear.
Generally, on such single-use free bet coupons, you get one win/loss result on them, with the ticket taken or "used up" on a result.
If it won, you get the value of chips printed as the face value, with the "used ticket" not having any value, or getting any additional chips, just taken as used.
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In using the coupons as a dealer, even at a local's place, some people were shocked - SHOCKED - when I took the ticket. With a shocked and offended look, they'd ask: "why did you take the ticket?" I'd answer - "Because it is a single-use ticket."
Then they'd say "aren't you supposed to pay the ticket TOO?" And I'd answer: "But I did pay the ticket, - you have $25 in chips in front of you, but I had to take the ticket." Then they'd say, "I thought I was supposed to get $50." Then I'd say, "No, it was a $25 free bet ticket, AND you got your $25, a free $25."
You see, the WIN is worth $25 with the paper ticket, - Not the win is worth $25 AND the paper ticket is ALSO worth an extra $25. People operate on the basis that the ticket is also worth $25 in cash - like chips - and that the win is additional bonus on top of it. It is not, unless the promotion was different.
Quote: BuzzardToo Lazy to start a new thread, ahigh, please pardon the intrusion.
Dec 21 is longest night of the year. Also my anniversary. 44 years today, Josie deserves the Nobel peace prize !
Continuing the intrusion ...
Congratulations, Buzz. And perhaps condolences to Josie. ;-)
You two have been married 4 1/2 months less than my wife and I, so we know what it's like.
BTW, we're having a little party tonight at our condo. On the invitation I told folks that there are too many Christmas events crowding our calendars, so I was inviting them to a "non-Christmas, non-Hanukkah, non-Kwanza, non-stress, Winter Solstice Party where you can relax, chill-out, and just be a pagan with your neighbors."
A "free bet" means just that. It's a freaking *bet*. That means that if you win "the bet", you don't get the bet PLUS the winnings. You get the winnings. The coupon was the bet. It's not a free $10. When you are finished with the bet you are either at 0 or b, which is the value of the b. You are not at 2b, which is two times the bet.
There is nothing misleading.
I can't wait to take advantage of all the sheep like the rest of the wolves. WHERE ARE THEY?!?! Let me get one!!!!
Entertainment is for the birds, let me kill something.
When the world collapses on itself later today, I'll just say "I couldn't make any difference and I gave up."
Quote: DocContinuing the intrusion ...
Congratulations, Buzz. And perhaps condolences to Josie. ;-)
You two have been married 4 1/2 months less than my wife and I, so we know what it's like.
BTW, we're having a little party tonight at our condo. On the invitation I told folks that there are too many Christmas events crowding our calendars, so I was inviting them to a "non-Christmas, non-Hanukkah, non-Kwanza, non-stress, Winter Solstice Party where you can relax, chill-out, and just be a pagan with your neighbors."
What about Festivus for the rest of us ???
Quote: DocI (at least initially) thought that there was one sentence in those terms that was not completely clear and might be misinterpreted.
Now, however, I have been assured by both MathExtremist and Paigowdan, two long-term members in very good standing here, that there is nothing unclear about what this particular coupon says will be paid if a wager with the coupon wins. Unfortunately, they disagree on what it clearly says.
In my opinion, the printed words agree with MathExtremist while I anticipate that Hollywood St. Louis would agree with Paigowdan.
This coupon says in plain English that it pays the winning wager AND the coupon is replaces with chips.
So if you bet $X and win, the winning wager is paid (you get $X) and the coupon is replaced with chips (you get another $X) for a total of $2X.
That's just English. A and B means, well, both A and B. This is the definition of the word "and". If I tell you that I will give you a can of coke and a bottle of vodka, and then give you only one or the other (but not both), you would probably say that I lied to you.
If that is not what they are doing, then it's worth taking it up with them, and they should be reported to gaming or whoever oversees things like this. It's not a matter of being misleading; it's a matter of flat-out lying.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThis coupon says in plain English that it pays the winning wager AND the coupon is replaces with chips.
So if you bet $X and win, the winning wager is paid (you get $X) and the coupon is replaced with chips (you get another $X) for a total of $2X.
That's just English. A and B means, well, both A and B. This is the definition of the word "and". If I tell you that I will give you a can of coke and a bottle of vodka, and then give you only one or the other (but not both), you would probably say that I lied to you.
If that is not what they are doing, then it's worth taking it up with them, and they should be reported to gaming or whoever oversees things like this. It's not a matter of being misleading; it's a matter of flat-out lying.
Glad to see someone gets it.
Quote: Paigowdan
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In using the coupons as a dealer, even at a local's place, some people were shocked - SHOCKED - when I took the ticket. With a shocked and offended look, they'd ask: "why did you take the ticket?" I'd answer - "Because it is a single-use ticket."
Then they'd say "aren't you supposed to pay the ticket TOO?" And I'd answer: "But I did pay the ticket, - you have $25 in chips in front of you, but I had to take the ticket." Then they'd say, "I thought I was supposed to get $50." Then I'd say, "No, it was a $25 free bet ticket, AND you got your $25, a free $25."
You see, the WIN is worth $25 with the paper ticket, - Not the win is worth $25 AND the paper ticket is ALSO worth an extra $25. People operate on the basis that the ticket is also worth $25 in cash - like chips - and that the win is additional bonus on top of it. It is not, unless the promotion was different.
But it is an even-money bet of $12.50, not $25. If it was a $25 bet that won, they would receive $25 paid in their winnings, so they would have $50.
However, they were paid $25, which is the payment for an even-money bet of $12.50.
This is why the coupon is misleading. It is not a bet $25, it is a bet of $12.50. If you win, you receive $25. If you lose, you receive nothing.
How long it stays up is irrelevant, because that has never been part of the complaint. Single-use means single-use.
Quote: SACRIf it was a $25 bet that won, they would receive $25 paid in their winnings, so they would have $50.
In most cases I would disagree with you on this. I would say that if the coupon was a free $25 bet and they won, they would be paid $25 (as with any other $25 even-money bet) and would still have the coupon, not $25 more in cash. Then the coupon says that it is to be forfeited after the wager, win or lose, so they wouldn't have it either. It's a free $25 bet (not $12.50), and they would wind up with $25 if the bet wins.
In this particular case, the wording of one little phase includes an unexpected word "and" that supports your position. From the beginning, I have noted that the casino's intent with that phrase is in question. MathExtremist and Paigowdan each give an excellent description of one side of the opposing interpretations. Now if you were using a free-bet coupon that didn't have that questionable wording, then I think it's quite clear that you would only get $25 on a win and that you are a bit out of line to expect to be paid $25 for the win plus $25 for the piece of paper, or to claim that the free bet is for something less than $25, even if the calculated expected value of the outcome (including forfeiting the coupon win or lose) is indeed less than $25.
What's the exact wording on the free-bet coupons that you play? I think I'm the only one who has shown exactly what any such coupon really says, not just what someone wants it to say.
Quote: Doc...What's the exact wording on the free-bet coupons that you play? I think I'm the only one who has shown exactly what any such coupon really says, not just what someone wants it to say.
The fine print on my Beau Rivage offer is so small I can't get a clear picture of it, so I have retyped it, word for word.
Your bet's on the House!
$300 in TablePlay at the Cage
-$150 January 2-15, 2013
-$150 January 16-31, 2013
TablePlay will be available on the first date listed, at 10:00 AM.
Redeem offer at the main cage to exchange for TablePlay.
TablePlay can only be broken down into 5 increments at most.
TablePlay is a one time bet only(regardless of whether the wager wins or loses).
If a TablePlay is wagered and a push occurs, then the chip can be wagered again until it wins or loses.
Coupon may only be redeemed once.
All offers are based on availability and have no cash value.
I do not need a coupon. I go to the main cage with my player's card and driver license. They swipe my card and it shows I have the $150 offer. They hand me a $100 promotional chip (2x the size of a regular casino chip) and 2 $25 promotional chips. I then play those chips on the table. Even money bets only, although nowhere does it say that. When I win, I get paid the value of the chip, and they take the chip. So $25 promotional gets me a $25 green on a win.
I also am in complete agreement with your assessment of the Free Play Coupon you received.
They have that unfortunate AND in there that makes it ambiguous as to their intentions.
The one point that I will agree to is the casino could EASILY correct this issue, if they were so inclined. It does make me question the motive behind allowing the ambiguity.
It actually makes me wonder what would happen if some casinos went to confuse the player in the opposite direction.
IE: what about a $5 coupon that was even money bets only that paid $20 when you won instead of 5. JUST TO MAKE THE POINT THAT THE OTHER CASINOS SUCK MAJOR BALL SACKS. Maybe in the rules (if you read them) you have to say "the other casinos suck major ball sacks" to win $20 instead of $10, but you get treated normally otherwise as you should expect.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI guess a $25 match play should pay $100 then. $25 for my win, $25 I bet and $50 for the coupon.
Match play is a different situation, though.
With a $25 match-play coupon, if you bet $25, wouldn't you expect to be paid $50, $25 for the coupon and then $25 for your bet? So there would theoretically be $100 on the felt, or $75 in chips and the coupon after the bet is resolved.
Run a commercial on TV like so:
Player: "The other casinos SUCK for only paying me half what's marked on the coupon!"
Dealer: "That's a double-pay coupon winner for saying the magic catch-phrase."
We don't pay half the marked value on the coupon, WE PAY DOUBLE!!
Why gamble with liars, come have a good time at the casino where the DEALERS ACTUALLY LIKE YOU TO HAVE A GOOD TIME!
Quote: DocIn most cases I would disagree with you on this. I would say that if the coupon was a free $25 bet and they won, they would be paid $25 (as with any other $25 even-money bet) and would still have the coupon, not $25 more in cash. Then the coupon says that it is to be forfeited after the wager, win or lose, so they wouldn't have it either. It's a free $25 bet (not $12.50), and they would wind up with $25 if the bet wins.
In this particular case, the wording of one little phase includes an unexpected word "and" that supports your position. From the beginning, I have noted that the casino's intent with that phrase is in question. MathExtremist and Paigowdan each give an excellent description of one side of the opposing interpretations. Now if you were using a free-bet coupon that didn't have that questionable wording, then I think it's quite clear that you would only get $25 on a win and that you are a bit out of line to expect to be paid $25 for the win plus $25 for the piece of paper, or to claim that the free bet is for something less than $25, even if the calculated expected value of the outcome (including forfeiting the coupon win or lose) is indeed less than $25.
What's the exact wording on the free-bet coupons that you play? I think I'm the only one who has shown exactly what any such coupon really says, not just what someone wants it to say.
I nominate Doc for the most clear-headed person on the forum. This post demonstrates the specific problem with his coupon, almost the entirety of the rest of this thread is just general complaining with no concrete examples. [RaleighCraps' next post excepted]
Make it big letters $4096 FREE BET on there and in small print put all the rules for how you have to win it.
Quote: AhighJust make $4096 dollar coupons that are good on even money bets except you have to win them 12 times in a row.
Make it big letters $4096 FREE BET on there and in small print put all the rules for how you have to win it.
I predict a successful career in casino marketing for this young man !
Quote: IbeatyouracesQuote: BuzzardQuote: AhighJust make $4096 dollar coupons that are good on even money bets except you have to win them 12 times in a row.
Make it big letters $4096 FREE BET on there and in small print put all the rules for how you have to win it.
I predict a successful career in casino marketing for this young man !
Probably better than trying to beat craps.
LOL. You guys. (knee slap).
Quote: AhighJust make $4096 dollar coupons that are good on even money bets except you have to win them 12 times in a row.
Make it big letters $4096 FREE BET on there and in small print put all the rules for how you have to win it.
Considering that the fire bet pays 2000/1 at many casinos, all you have to do is call it the FREE $4000 BET, and you're in business. Just make sure the fact that someone has to hit the fire bet twice consecutively is in the small print.
