Tough Craps... too tough?

Hello there! I've been reading a little bit about Tough Craps, which really appeals to me because the casino I play at (Horseshoe in Cleveland) offers 100x odds, max $10,000 bet, which is way too rich for me. My bankroll ranges from $200 to $1000. I usually spread out my bets (pass line, come, place 6,8 until one hits) because I like a lot of action. After last night I've decided I like winning more so I'm willing to change my strategy. :) Thus, progressive odds betting sounds enticing since I'm obviously not placing $1500 in odds behind every $15 pass bet. In fact I rarely do more than 2x odds because of the amount I like on the table at the same time.

So my understanding of tough craps is establishing 3 come 'points' in addition to the pass line, progressing the odds after every win and treating these bets independent of each other. I would be more comfortable with 2 bets out there backed by odds... but my question is wouldn't it be a 'better' system (less volatile, more prosperous) if you progressed your odds bet after a loss instead of a win? After a cold spell at the table a shooter making one or two points would make up for most any loss. I don't lend much credence to the 'establishing a shooter' concept, and even still I would be winning with 2x odds if a shooter threw a lot of points.

Or what about progressing every odds bet regardless of the outcome of the last roll (win/loss)? I would have a max odds bet based on my own comfort and bankroll, say $100 odds, before I started over at 2x odds. This is probably the worst option, but maybe someone has tried it.

Let me know what you guys think! :D

EDIT: Here is the link to tough craps, it was mentioned on this forum before as well, sorry for not making that clear. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.gambling.craps/bOnvtpZD0gk

Quote: drussell0208

Let me know what you guys think! :D

I think I've never heard of Tough Craps. Can provide a link or something?

Quote: odiousgambit

I think I've never heard of Tough Craps. Can provide a link or something?

Phew. I thought I was the only one.

Isn't craps a negative expectation game?

Quote: Triplell

Isn't craps a negative expectation game?

Yep. Nice point to bring up.
DIs laugh at -EV.

But craps offers the best type of variance that can be found in a casino game.
The variance of Odds bets adds NOTHING to the expected loss.

And players win all the time playing craps because of variance.

Quote: drussell0208

Let me know what you guys think! :D

Too much thinking!
Get WinCraps. It is free.
Windows program.

You can set your rules of play and play away making your bets as you please.

See for yourself what your old and new style of play can accomplish.

Make fewer larger bets with most money bet on the odds part.
You want variance from the odds to give you the best chance to win over many bets.

Sounds to me you play scared.
Scared to lose.

WinCraps will show you what to expect from your play.
Then you will not feel scared any more...
until you play for real money.

Quote: 7craps

Sounds to me you play scared.

LOL, I'm terrified everytime I step up to the craps table, but something keeps drawing me back. It's like that girlfriend who you know is bad for you, but the temptation is too strong.

Or in ewjones080 case, the stripper!

Quote: drussell0208

So my understanding of tough craps is establishing 3 come 'points' in addition to the pass line, progressing the odds after every win and treating these bets independent of each other. Let me know what you guys think! :D

Do you let your odds work on the come out? Seems like it might take a while to get to the point where you had a pass and 3 unique come bets up. I think you would have bigger wins when the table is hot but would assume your risk of ruin is much higher higher?

First of all, sorry for not being clear about what tough craps is. It was mentioned here before, I searched for it and found this link: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.gambling.craps/bOnvtpZD0gk . edited my original post to include it.

Secondly, I have a mac so I can't use WinCraps. I'll probably download it on a friends computer soon and try this out. I will let you guys know how the trial goes.

I do play a little scared. No one wants to put all of his or her money out there for it to be wiped away in one 7-out.

Finally, the risk of ruin is what keeps me from having 3 come bets and a pass line bet. That's how the original tough craps person does it, but like I said too much out there for me. I do let the odds work on the come out roll.

So the last few days I tried to increase my odds bets past the amount I would normally be comfortable having it, after each 7 out. It worked pretty well, especially when the point finally made is one that pays double. :) I did get cocky and start making other bets (placing the 6 and 8), but overall I like this strategy. The one downside is I won't be able to play it with only $200-$400, definitely need enough to put odds of at least 5-10x on your base (pass line+come) bets several times. On the other hand, I guess that depends on how long you play.

Good thing you are playing in Cleveland with 100x odds. Vegas isn't really the place to play craps anymore. Do they have $5 minimums ever?

I like the tough craps system, even though it is too aggressive even for me. Any system that puts the majority of your action on the free odds is a good system. Positive, negative, flat progression -- doesn't matter. Use whichever one you prefer to suit your desired variance curve.

Here's how I play usually these days: 10x odds or more tables. Minimum come bet on every roll, 5x or 10x odds right away. If "get ahead" during the roll (i.e., shooter establishes three points, makes two of them, and is still rolling), start pressing on the odds. Keep pressing as long as the roll is going well. Ideally want to have a 100x odds table for unlimited upside, but I can deal with the 20x tables at Main Street and Sam's Town.

Positive progressions are more fun than negative, imo.

Quote: teddys

Good thing you are playing in Cleveland with 100x odds. Vegas isn't really the place to play craps anymore. Do they have $5 minimums ever?

I like the tough craps system, even though it is too aggressive even for me. Any system that puts the majority of your action on the free odds is a good system. Positive, negative, flat progression -- doesn't matter. Use whichever one you prefer to suit your desired variance curve.

Here's how I play usually these days: 10x odds or more tables. Minimum come bet on every roll, 5x or 10x odds right away. If "get ahead" during the roll (i.e., shooter establishes three points, makes two of them, and is still rolling), start pressing on the odds. Keep pressing as long as the roll is going well. Ideally want to have a 100x odds table for unlimited upside, but I can deal with the 20x tables at Main Street and Sam's Town.

Positive progressions are more fun than negative, imo.

You're right about positive progression being more fun, and that is something I hadn't considered. It's much harder for us scaredy cats to put down $150 in odds when $300 has been lost in just a few rolls.

Cleveland doesn't really have $5 tables. I did ask them the one day to lower their 3rd (and empty) $10 table to $5 and they did. Told a friend about this and he did the same thing the next week. We're both there often and it was about 5am so I would not count on that. Mostly the tables are $10 before noon, then $15.

I just got WinCraps and I'm trying to program this progression but jit will probably take me a little more time. I know I need to keep track of rolls by using the chip stacks, but haven't quite got it down yet.

Out of curiosity, have you simulated your usual play in WinCraps?

The guy who introduced "tough craps" on the rec.gambling.craps newsgroup was a guy called "Tom (Home Runs Are Boring)". He himself said that this system is almost always losing, but occasionally a huge win would over-balance all the losses. He claimed to be ahead, lifetime. I think I have a description of it somewhere, maybe even a WinCraps sim, but that link provided earlier may lead to a good description.

Progressive betting systems tend to have many more losing sessions than winning ones, with the wins being large ones. The thing about progressive systems is that the premium is on consecutive wins, not just overall W-L record as in flat betting. This (and, of course, the higher bet amounts) means much more variance.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: drussell0208

I just got WinCraps and I'm trying to program this progression but jit will probably take me a little more time. I know I need to keep track of rolls by using the chip stacks, but haven't quite got it down yet.

BTW, I have been in contact with Steen again lately (the author of WinCraps). After a long "intermission", he is again at work on WinCrapsPro, which allows multiple players, so you can have different players making different bets and see how each fares with the same rolls. Also, the auto-betting system is going to be much improved, using plain text files and much more flexible syntax, more like a regular programming language, so I think it will be easier to implement a system. I have a beta version, and it is really pretty. If you go to http://www.cloudcitysoftware.com/ , the picture at the top is what Pro looks like. There is still a lot of work to do, though, so I have no idea when it will be available.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Thanks for the link! I hope it gets a mac update someday.

Playing scared is the only way to gamble. When the casino has the edge over you, scared is decidedly smart.

I do not know "Tough Craps" but it sounds as if it is a progressive betting system. Progressive betting does not work. Every time you place a bet, whether it is the first bet or any bet you make with money you won (which is now your money), the house has that edge working. Even if it is just increasing odds bets, those line bets cost you (even if you have big money and can go up to 100X odds). The ups and downs become huge with more and more money bet on odds so you have to have a decent bankroll to handle those ups and downs.

If you are playing a random game (and on just about every shooter you are) then make a bet that is small, just one bet, and root for it to win. That is exciting and cost efficient. I know I am a stick in the mud (where did that expression come from?) but less is best in a random game in my view.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Even if it is just increasing odds bets

Your logic is slipping there, or maybe it came out wrong. In this case increasing your variance is the only scary part, and it should be scary, yet variance is your only hope with negative expectation.

Not really. The gambler's bankroll has to be large to handle variance --- most of them aren't. So rather than throw caution to the winds, I'd rather tamp down the fervor and recommend something relatively safe.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Not really. The gambler's bankroll has to be large to handle variance

I'll certainly agree that anyone with insufficient bankroll should be scared. One superstition of mine, which I know to be a fallacy, is pretty unshakable: I just have observed that the dice "see" it when someone's bankroll is on the ropes and go after it with a vengeance.

Quote: FrankScoblete

most of them aren't.

I suspect you are right.

Quote: teddys

...Vegas isn't really the place to play craps anymore. Do they have $5 minimums ever?

I have been travelling to vegas from the frozen tundra for over 40 years and playing craps primarily downtown. Most recently was there, downtown that is, for periods of time in jan, mar & apr of this year. I have never NOT been able to find a $5 table (even 25 CENTS tables back in the day) downtown even during the "prime" or busiest days--or times of day--of the year...and believe me, i always look for them...tom "home runs are often boring" p

The sooner anyone will figure that the game can not be won the more money they will "win". I see same people playing the game month after month, they try different systems, use all type of throws, only achieve the same results. These ones are the biggest losers. Walk to a table, few seven outs in a row, and that is about it, your session is over, your theories are not working, go away, find something else to do. No need to waste your life trying to prove what has been known long time ago.

only system that works consistently for me is the double up on the don't come. 10 -20- 40 if 1 shooter beats you 3 times wait for the next.

Quote: champ724

only system that works consistently for me is the double up on the don't come. 10 -20- 40 if 1 shooter beats you 3 times wait for the next.

with the next shooter do you continue your Marty or start over?

I find what works for me is to almost double up on a Lay 4 or Lay 10 on one shooter after a loss.
I hit 2 bet parlays all the time, i am so lucky and know when to bet

I think DC bets are sucker bets as i have pointed out B4
my lifetime Lay 4&10 bets are a big winner for me and i do win at a rate close to 75%

DC bets only dream of winning that often

but if you have fun with max 3 DC per shooter losing bets
that is great too!
=====================
just remember
ARE the chances of losing 3 DC bets in a row over 1 shooter (MAYbe shooter PSO - no 3 DC bets made)
the same as
losing 1 DC bet per shooter over 3 shooters
same 3 bets are lost

except when you qualify the shooter by the Sally Qualify Method
the only shooter qualification method that has worked all over the world
for winning craps players
sure, the 5 or 6 count can work too, but those are for losing craps players all over the world

to each their own
that is tough!
Oh Sally

i start back over at 10. I used to do it on the come out with a no 4 or 10 for 30 in case the 7 rolls which worked ok I just don't think a progressive system on the don't pass is doomed cuz the 7 11'1 on the come out kill ya. if you wait for a point to be established and then bet the don't come a shooter can only beat you with 1 seven n ya move on to the next shooter. u can always play $1 yo to protect the yo second roll

Quote: Dicenor33

The sooner anyone will figure that the game can not be won the more money they will "win"...your theories are not working, go away, find something else to do. No need to waste your life trying to prove what has been known long time ago.

truer words were never spoken...your best "bet" indeed is to not play at all...mathematical expectation: zero...fun factor: zero...old soap opera: "one life to live"...
tom "home runs are often boring" p