Bubble Craps (Shoot To Win / Mystery of Fifty, etc. ) - Is it Random or Controlled Outcome?
September 21st, 2012 at 12:30:21 AM
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I have been searching through Google and this site, and I haven't found a definite answer.
I am unsure of how the State of Nevada laws pertain to this machine (if it's considered a machine like a slot machine, so the odds can be manipulated) or if it's considered as having no-biased dice like an actual craps game.
I have heard from actual craps dealers that since it's a machine, there is probably some magnate or other device to manipulate the outcome of those huge dice, thus giving an advantage to the casino.
Does the Wizard have any info on the "randomness" of these fairly new devices?
I am unsure of how the State of Nevada laws pertain to this machine (if it's considered a machine like a slot machine, so the odds can be manipulated) or if it's considered as having no-biased dice like an actual craps game.
I have heard from actual craps dealers that since it's a machine, there is probably some magnate or other device to manipulate the outcome of those huge dice, thus giving an advantage to the casino.
Does the Wizard have any info on the "randomness" of these fairly new devices?
September 21st, 2012 at 12:56:40 AM
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Take some stats, cheating machines would have to be obvious after a while. If you observe that right bettors are getting screwed, bet the darkside, or vice versa. You'd want to make sure 12 doesnt come up too often for the dark side bettors [in which case bet the field, maybe]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 21st, 2012 at 3:56:55 AM
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Most likely, the game is 100% random.
The casino does not need to cheat to gain an advantage,
Their advantage is built into the game
Via probability combined with alteration in payout odds vs true odds.
The casino does not need to cheat to gain an advantage,
Their advantage is built into the game
Via probability combined with alteration in payout odds vs true odds.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 21st, 2012 at 4:38:59 AM
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The dealers are just trying to protect their jobs. Can't really blame them for that.Quote: jab50I have heard from actual craps dealers that since it's a machine,...
As others have said, there is no need for the casinos to cheat. They have the edge. And machines are cheaper to lease and maintain than to pay employees a salary, so there again is no reason to cheat.
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On the other hand, since these ARE machines, in most jurisdictions they are legally classified as slot machines, and can be placed in casinos that are not licensed for table games. But that's got more to do with how they are taxed than how random they are.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 21st, 2012 at 6:07:14 AM
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I would agree with all the points made so far.
The dealers are utterly ignorant of the machine, biased in their opinions and probably do not want to be replaced by a robot irrespective of its classifications, magnets, licenses or frills.
The machines if gaffed by the casino, would cost the casino its license and be a real blow to the entire industry. No matter how weak you think Nevada Gaming Control is, the officials there know their salaries come from an industry rather than any particular casino. Nevada Gaming would come down so hard and fast on any casino intentionally gaffing a device.
I think with the different taxation schemes and licensing fees involved, it would be easy to find out that any particularmachine was classified as a slot machine rather than a table game.
In the 1980s slot revenue exceeded all other gaming revenue. This should be viewed as a change in the demographics of gamblers, not a change in trends or preferences. For decades, few gamblers have been going to Las Vegas. Oh more travelers may have been going there, perhaps that is why restaurants, clubs and pools have boomed, but fewer gamblers. The adage about real gamblers don't play slot machines probably remains true, its just that real gamblers appear to be going the way of other obsolete sociological phenomenon.
The dealers are utterly ignorant of the machine, biased in their opinions and probably do not want to be replaced by a robot irrespective of its classifications, magnets, licenses or frills.
The machines if gaffed by the casino, would cost the casino its license and be a real blow to the entire industry. No matter how weak you think Nevada Gaming Control is, the officials there know their salaries come from an industry rather than any particular casino. Nevada Gaming would come down so hard and fast on any casino intentionally gaffing a device.
I think with the different taxation schemes and licensing fees involved, it would be easy to find out that any particularmachine was classified as a slot machine rather than a table game.
In the 1980s slot revenue exceeded all other gaming revenue. This should be viewed as a change in the demographics of gamblers, not a change in trends or preferences. For decades, few gamblers have been going to Las Vegas. Oh more travelers may have been going there, perhaps that is why restaurants, clubs and pools have boomed, but fewer gamblers. The adage about real gamblers don't play slot machines probably remains true, its just that real gamblers appear to be going the way of other obsolete sociological phenomenon.
September 21st, 2012 at 3:17:45 PM
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99.98% chance it is completely random. They have to get the device approved for use in Nevada, and regulations are stringent. No magnetic or computer chip hanky-panky would be allowed.
Also, if the machines were rigged in favor of the house, why have almost all casinos eliminated or reduced points and cashback for rated players' card play on those machines?
Also, if the machines were rigged in favor of the house, why have almost all casinos eliminated or reduced points and cashback for rated players' card play on those machines?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 21st, 2012 at 3:22:03 PM
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Quote: teddysAlso, if the machines were rigged in favor of the house, why have almost all casinos eliminated or reduced points and cashback for rated players' card play on those machines?
That's a badly worded sentence. Let me try:
Craps generally has a low house edge. So low, that the casinos have reduced the cashback. If the casinos were rigging those machines, there would be enough profit to afford to give the same cashback as regular slots.
On a side note, casinos reduce the cashback on video poker as well, for the same reasons.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 21st, 2012 at 3:58:55 PM
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Thanks, DJT. We could all use an editor at times. Exactly right.Quote: DJTeddyBearThat's a badly worded sentence. Let me try:
Craps generally has a low house edge. So low, that the casinos have reduced the cashback. If the casinos were rigging those machines, there would be enough profit to afford to give the same cashback as regular slots.
On a side note, casinos reduce the cashback on video poker as well, for the same reasons.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 21st, 2012 at 4:10:45 PM
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Good Question.Quote: jab50I am unsure of how the State of Nevada laws pertain to this machine (if it's considered a machine like a slot machine, so the odds can be manipulated) or if it's considered as having no-biased dice like an actual craps game.
It is a slot machine. The company says it is, so we must agree with them on that.
On $1200 or above wins, including the original wager, a W2G is issued.
The company still does not have approval for use in California because it uses 2 dice for each roll outcome.
Another company that uses 3 dice has one install.
CA does not allow only 2 dice to determine the outcome of a craps roll. (some mix dice and cards)
This would suggest that a RNG does NOT determine the number rolled when the shooter presses the button
and the dice then just are controlled to show that result.
That would be a good (great) engineering feat IMO.
Maybe they are working on that.
of course if you believe every Nevada gaming, Nevada Government and Testing Lab
would never be in on a rigged game against any NON AP player... ain't the Christian God's fair casino rules in control.
I say, trust anyone or anything as far as you can throw them, underhanded.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
September 21st, 2012 at 6:34:48 PM
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Since the shooting of the dice is controlled by a player (in most cases) my analysis indicates the dice roll is random.
From my point of view, it does not seem the machine has any inside control mechanism to alter the result of the rolling dies. (except cocked dice)
Thus far, Ive recorded die results totaling about 100 hours from these SHOOT TO WIN crap machines at various locations.
From my estimate the machine will produce close to a 100 rolls per. hour in actual play. Giving me an estimated 10,000 rolls result, and my findings . are fairly consistent with random.
Right now the Pass line winning ratio is about 1% over the Dont Pass. (out of the 10,000 rolls)
Although there is some chatter going around that these machines can be manipulated to skew the bouncing dice to produce non-random numbers by the shooter.
However, my findings indicate the bouncing tempo is not always the same making manipulation difficult.
Still accumulating data and experimenting with the shooter manipulation theory.
From my point of view, it does not seem the machine has any inside control mechanism to alter the result of the rolling dies. (except cocked dice)
Thus far, Ive recorded die results totaling about 100 hours from these SHOOT TO WIN crap machines at various locations.
From my estimate the machine will produce close to a 100 rolls per. hour in actual play. Giving me an estimated 10,000 rolls result, and my findings . are fairly consistent with random.
Right now the Pass line winning ratio is about 1% over the Dont Pass. (out of the 10,000 rolls)
Although there is some chatter going around that these machines can be manipulated to skew the bouncing dice to produce non-random numbers by the shooter.
However, my findings indicate the bouncing tempo is not always the same making manipulation difficult.
Still accumulating data and experimenting with the shooter manipulation theory.
September 21st, 2012 at 7:03:48 PM
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Would video dice be allowed in CA? Years ago there was a craps machine called Hot Shot Dice that was a video never ever craps game. Shooters rolled video dice using a trackball similar to Centipede. Would that pass the law on dice?
As for this machine, it certainly seems random to me. Most places have removed comps/points altogether on them or lowered them 75%.
As for this machine, it certainly seems random to me. Most places have removed comps/points altogether on them or lowered them 75%.
September 21st, 2012 at 7:14:34 PM
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If there was any consistent bias at all in the roll of the dice, the players would be able to exploit it. As soon as you can determine that 4s are coming more often than they should, it would make it an AP to Buy the 4. The same would be true for every number that had a bias.
The only way the players could get cheated is if the machine is able to influence the roll based on the current bets. And it does not sound like that is probable.
The only way the players could get cheated is if the machine is able to influence the roll based on the current bets. And it does not sound like that is probable.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2012 at 7:42:48 PM
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If the Shoot To Win machine is a true "slot machine" then it has to be programmed to return -- if I remember correctly -- 75% in Nevada.
If it is a true random roll of large dice caused by a mechanical push then there is no requirement that it return anything.
From checking various YouTube videos it appears that the designated shooter decides at what position and when to "bounce the dice." That doesn't negate the possibility of magnets, loads, whatever.
But if you found a machine to be rigged to go one way, you simply bet the other way.
This is what I tell my sister and her husband twice a year when they return from their semi-annual cruise vacations. "The dice were ice cold, they always are," they tell me. "So play the don't," I tell them.
I also suggest charting the game. Pooling the charting info here could be beneficial.
But what is most beneficial for playing the game is that even on small bets it makes the "correct payouts."
If it is a true random roll of large dice caused by a mechanical push then there is no requirement that it return anything.
From checking various YouTube videos it appears that the designated shooter decides at what position and when to "bounce the dice." That doesn't negate the possibility of magnets, loads, whatever.
But if you found a machine to be rigged to go one way, you simply bet the other way.
This is what I tell my sister and her husband twice a year when they return from their semi-annual cruise vacations. "The dice were ice cold, they always are," they tell me. "So play the don't," I tell them.
I also suggest charting the game. Pooling the charting info here could be beneficial.
But what is most beneficial for playing the game is that even on small bets it makes the "correct payouts."
September 21st, 2012 at 8:02:21 PM
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I am looker for a backer for my Bubble Machine Dice Setting school. It is based on biorhythm manipulation of the RNG.
I am currently negotiating with John Patrick as an endorsement.
I am currently negotiating with John Patrick as an endorsement.
September 21st, 2012 at 8:07:11 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelson...I also suggest charting the game. Pooling the charting info here could be beneficial.
But what is most beneficial for playing the game is that even on small bets it makes the "correct payouts."
Charting the game and pooling the results could prove interesting. If there was an anomaly this board would certainly have the people to find it.
Always making the 'correct payouts' though actually would hurt some of us. An easy example is the Buy 4.
Almost every casino will let me Buy the 4 for $30, but only charge me $1 vig. I've never pushed it, but I have been told I could even bet $39 in some casinos and still only be charged $1. So that effectively lowers my Vig from 5% down to 3%. I'm too lazy to do the math, but that would make the Buy 4, vig on win, something less than the 1.67%.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2012 at 8:19:34 PM
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do you pay the vig when you buy the 4?? I only pay the vig on the wins.
But getting back to Bubble Craps. When I see it being played, players are betting $1 and $2 -- limits less than the casino minimums for the live table game. At Caesars LV for example, their tables are usually $10 minimums but the Shoot To Win game is $1 minimum bets. So you get the correct payout when you place, for example, the 6, 8, etc., down to the penny.
But getting back to Bubble Craps. When I see it being played, players are betting $1 and $2 -- limits less than the casino minimums for the live table game. At Caesars LV for example, their tables are usually $10 minimums but the Shoot To Win game is $1 minimum bets. So you get the correct payout when you place, for example, the 6, 8, etc., down to the penny.
September 21st, 2012 at 8:30:23 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsondo you pay the vig when you buy the 4?? I only pay the vig on the wins.
But getting back to Bubble Craps. When I see it being played, players are betting $1 and $2 -- limits less than the casino minimums for the live table game. At Caesars LV for example, their tables are usually $10 minimums but the Shoot To Win game is $1 minimum bets. So you get the correct payout when you place, for example, the 6, 8, etc., down to the penny.
I try to avoid casinos that charge the Vig upfront (which is a big part of me having not been back to AC in 10 years). When I have to play in them, I limit my Buy 4/10 action unless there are so many of them rolling that it requires me to play them. ;-) Seriously though, I will only play the inside as a rule, and the 4/10 as occasional exceptions.
Yes, there certainly is a benefit to Bubble Craps for people who wish to play craps, at low, low minimums. Personally, I have never understood the desire to play craps for $1. I know I am probably not going to win after an hour of play, but if I do get that positive variance, I would like it to be more than $10. I understand we all have different valuations of what is discretionary funds, and what is affordable, so I am only saying, for myself I would not find $1 craps to be fun.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
September 21st, 2012 at 8:46:54 PM
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Craps being a negative expectation game is a lot of fun at the lowest levels possible. Before we arrive in Vegas we stop at the Gold Strike in Jean, NV, about 25 minutes from the center strip.
Gold Strike usually has only one table going, $3 minimum. I have a blast with a $100 buy-in which gets the "craps bug" out of my system for when I arrive at Caesars and have to face mostly $25 tables for most of the weekend.
Ironically, I had one of my best hands at Gold Strike in years -- and it was the same weekend that I hit five numbers on the fire bet at Caesars for $2500. I held the dice at GS for about a half hour, did very little pressing, and won about $250 starting with about $20 on the layout. Only 2X odds.
Gold Strike usually has only one table going, $3 minimum. I have a blast with a $100 buy-in which gets the "craps bug" out of my system for when I arrive at Caesars and have to face mostly $25 tables for most of the weekend.
Ironically, I had one of my best hands at Gold Strike in years -- and it was the same weekend that I hit five numbers on the fire bet at Caesars for $2500. I held the dice at GS for about a half hour, did very little pressing, and won about $250 starting with about $20 on the layout. Only 2X odds.
September 21st, 2012 at 9:21:27 PM
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I saw that game at Viejas Casino in Alpine just east of San Diego, CA back in 2007. It is not there any more.Quote: PokeraddictWould video dice be allowed in CA? Years ago there was a craps machine called Hot Shot Dice that was a video never ever craps game. Shooters rolled video dice using a trackball similar to Centipede. Would that pass the law on dice?
ShuffleMaster has Vegas Star Craps that was at Fantasy Springs Casino in Indio, CA.
It was always breaking down. Now they have the 3 dice Organic Craps game.
Yes, it looks to be 100% random. The rounded dice allows for some crazy rolls.Quote: PokeraddictAs for this machine, it certainly seems random to me. Most places have removed comps/points altogether on them or lowered them 75%.
After the 20 second countdown to make all your bets, the dice platform starts to vibrate for about 3 seconds and the shooter can not "pop" the dice during that time. Each shooter can take up to 20 seconds to "hit the button" to "shoot the dice".
As the dice come to a stop, the platform does another slight vibration for a second and this can keep the dice moving. I noticed this at my last visit last month.
Maybe it is so the dice do not lean on the edge of the platform and cause a "re-pop" so both dice are flat on the platform.
September 21st, 2012 at 9:28:21 PM
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I have hit GS about 5 times a year since 2006 and I have only seen one Craps table there.Quote: AlanMendelsonCraps being a negative expectation game is a lot of fun at the lowest levels possible. Before we arrive in Vegas we stop at the Gold Strike in Jean, NV, about 25 minutes from the center strip.
Gold Strike usually has only one table going, $3 minimum. I have a blast with a $100 buy-in which gets the "craps bug" out of my system for when I arrive at Caesars and have to face mostly $25 tables for most of the weekend.
Their pit is not that big.
Currently it is $3 to $500 and 345X odds.
The Shoot to Win Craps is between the Craps table and the Cage.
They really lowered the max bets on every bet there.
I saw the pass line was $1 to $10.
You can bet $500 on the real Craps table.
The machine has no TITO. All hand pay on every cash out.
Maybe the slot attendants complained.
They always seemed nice.
September 21st, 2012 at 11:56:57 PM
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Thank you for all your responses. I have noticed that some of your comments side with the casino in that "They wouldn't tip the odds more in their favor if they're not paying out some comps."
While that seems logical, it seems that these days, casinos have become incredibly "cheap" in their comps, and personally, I could envision them paying little or no comps for these craps games AND having a machine that manipulates the dice in the casino's favor. People still play the 6 to 5 'blackjack' tables, so why not play on a craps machine that pays worse than an actual craps game? As mentioned by someone, some players are just intimidated by some aspect of the actual craps game, so they're more comfortable playing on a machine. Most of my friends, when they're in Vegas, ONLY play slots (or try to play VP with poor or no strategy) because they are afraid to learn and play the table games. I don't understand them because they lose more than I lose on craps or BJ.
Anyway, I haven't tried these craps machines yet because I thought they were rigged somehow, but maybe I'll put in a few bucks next time I'm downtown at Binion's.
It would be great to see some actual stats here. As one forum user said, they have already compiled a decent amount of numbers that slightly favors the pass-line bettor so far.
While that seems logical, it seems that these days, casinos have become incredibly "cheap" in their comps, and personally, I could envision them paying little or no comps for these craps games AND having a machine that manipulates the dice in the casino's favor. People still play the 6 to 5 'blackjack' tables, so why not play on a craps machine that pays worse than an actual craps game? As mentioned by someone, some players are just intimidated by some aspect of the actual craps game, so they're more comfortable playing on a machine. Most of my friends, when they're in Vegas, ONLY play slots (or try to play VP with poor or no strategy) because they are afraid to learn and play the table games. I don't understand them because they lose more than I lose on craps or BJ.
Anyway, I haven't tried these craps machines yet because I thought they were rigged somehow, but maybe I'll put in a few bucks next time I'm downtown at Binion's.
It would be great to see some actual stats here. As one forum user said, they have already compiled a decent amount of numbers that slightly favors the pass-line bettor so far.
September 21st, 2012 at 11:58:14 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsYes, there certainly is a benefit to Bubble Craps for people who wish to play craps, at low, low minimums. Personally, I have never understood the desire to play craps for $1. I know I am probably not going to win after an hour of play, but if I do get that positive variance, I would like it to be more than $10. I understand we all have different valuations of what is discretionary funds, and what is affordable, so I am only saying, for myself I would not find $1 craps to be fun.
I think players new to craps find the game less intimidating than the live game. These players also like to play at lower limits.
A funny story: my wife had never played craps so I taught her how to play on the bubble craps machine at the Venetian. She was betting $1 pass line only with single odds and proceeded to roll 23 times before a loss!
September 22nd, 2012 at 11:51:26 AM
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FWIW, the machine does have worse odds in several ways. The odds are worse for don't players compared to table games at every casino I know of having it. Pass line odds are only 2x in many places too. If you buy a 4/10 the machine takes double juice. It takes 5% of your win, not 5% of your bet. The field also only pays double on 12.
September 22nd, 2012 at 12:25:34 PM
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Quote: 7crapsGood Question.
It is a slot machine. The company says it is, so we must agree with them on that.
On $1200 or above wins, including the original wager, a W2G is issued.
This isn't true. It isn't treated as a slot - the casino manager told me this (at Gold Strike in Jean) as they were paying me my $2200 (without paperwork). I started with $100.
I went back recently, and they had totally changed the rules of the game (Max LAY bet was $30). I asked the manager if I still held the record for that machine for the largest payout. He said I still did. My wife then asked if they changed the rules because of me....he kind of hem and hawed and said..."uh...well, uh..no, it was because we felt like it was too confusing for people....."
Whatever....
I think my big payout totally made them change the game rules. (LAY bet max was probably $1000) Well, it worked because I didn't do near as well. I won't go back there anymore. Shoot to Win at Ceasear's has better rules.
It isn't that big of a pay out really - I was kinda surprised it was still the top. I mean, putting $100 on snake eyes would blow it away.
September 22nd, 2012 at 12:48:07 PM
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I think it is $1200 win on any one roll.Quote: slackyhackyThis isn't true. It isn't treated as a slot - the casino manager told me this (at Gold Strike in Jean) as they were paying me my $2200 (without paperwork). I started with $100.
I hit a $45, 30 to 1 payout (hop 4-4) with $5 on the hard 8
and the machine locked up and they issued me a W2G on the spot before I could continue.
They told me this so I would know to bet less so any one win would be less than $1200 does not get a W2G.
Cant do that any more with max $5 bets
September 22nd, 2012 at 4:26:39 PM
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Quote: PokeraddictFWIW, the machine does have worse odds in several ways. The odds are worse for don't players compared to table games at every casino I know of having it. Pass line odds are only 2x in many places too. If you buy a 4/10 the machine takes double juice. It takes 5% of your win, not 5% of your bet. The field also only pays double on 12.
That's got nothing to do with whether or not the dice are rigged.
Roulette slots also tend to have lower payouts than live tables. But the wheel is still fair.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 22nd, 2012 at 5:35:16 PM
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Quote: guido111Currently it is $3 to $500 and 345X odds.
The Shoot to Win Craps is between the Craps table and the Cage.
The machine has no TITO. All hand pay on every cash out.
When did Gold Strike go to 345x odds? I was there about six weeks ago. Only 2x odds.
Im not surprised the craps machine has no TITO after all this is the casino that says it pays "real coins" and "money you can feel" on its electronic sign along the I-15.
Playing $1 vp there on my last visit I cashed out $270 after getting a straight flush... and I had to wait for a hopper reload. When was the last time you had to wait for a hopper reload? LOL
September 22nd, 2012 at 6:09:53 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWhen did Gold Strike go to 345x odds? I was there about six weeks ago. Only 2x odds.
Im not surprised the craps machine has no TITO after all this is the casino that says it pays "real coins" and "money you can feel" on its electronic sign along the I-15.
Playing $1 vp there on my last visit I cashed out $270 after getting a straight flush... and I had to wait for a hopper reload. When was the last time you had to wait for a hopper reload? LOL
Shoot to Win uses coins at Gold Strike? I wonder how many other ones are that way. I am surprised they even would have designed it with that capability.
December 10th, 2012 at 10:24:51 AM
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Data Point:
I returned from Vegas last night after playing the Bubble Craps machine at Bally's. I was sometimes putting Place to Lose bets on 4 or 10 and noticed a lost fairly often. So I did an experiment: I put on a Place to Lose on 10 for $5. After losing I added $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 10 six times in a row losing me $5, $10, $15, $20, $25, and $30.
This is hard to believe but true -- on the next roll I then switched to putting on Place to Lose on 4, adding $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 4 four times straight.
It rolled 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 while I had place to loose on each of those rolls
It seems clear to me the machine can roll whatever it calculates is desirable.
I returned from Vegas last night after playing the Bubble Craps machine at Bally's. I was sometimes putting Place to Lose bets on 4 or 10 and noticed a lost fairly often. So I did an experiment: I put on a Place to Lose on 10 for $5. After losing I added $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 10 six times in a row losing me $5, $10, $15, $20, $25, and $30.
This is hard to believe but true -- on the next roll I then switched to putting on Place to Lose on 4, adding $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 4 four times straight.
It rolled 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 while I had place to loose on each of those rolls
It seems clear to me the machine can roll whatever it calculates is desirable.
December 10th, 2012 at 10:47:40 AM
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Gold Strike is still 2X odds on their table.Quote: AlanMendelsonWhen did Gold Strike go to 345x odds? I was there about six weeks ago. Only 2x odds.
I saw the 2x odds on the STWCraps also for the pass/come, not the don't side. The don't odds only allows 2X bet to be made, just like the pass/come side.
The company that makes this machine really does not understand the game of craps, or does not know how to program it properly,
when it come to max odds and even making place bets.
NO across, inside, outside buttons. No place bet press or option button after a win.
All the casinos I have seen on the strip have really lowered the max bets and total bets that could be made, they must have become tired of giving out many W2Gs for any $1200 payout on any one roll.
Not at all a high roller friendly machine to play.
El Cortez is just fine with $3 to $1000 limits and 10X odds on both the pass and dpass sides
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
December 10th, 2012 at 10:52:35 AM
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Was the machine popping the dice every roll or was it a shooter hitting the button on every roll?Quote: twIt rolled 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 while I had place to loose on each of those rolls
It seems clear to me the machine can roll whatever it calculates is desirable.
Maybe the shooter did not like you at all and was betting the 4 and 10 and found out a way to always roll those numbers.
When I played there last week, 1 hardway rolled per 50 rolls, it was pathetic.
I hit one and left. Was it cheating by the machine??
What you claim to have happened would be illegal for the machine to do.
Contact Nevada Gaming and let them know about this cheating... call it what it is.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
December 10th, 2012 at 10:55:42 AM
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I haven't read this whole thread, so if this has already been discussed, decided or shot down, I apologize.
I played this game for the first time this past March. I put a $10 bill in just to see what the game was all about. I put a minimum bet on the Don't Pass Line. I noticed everyone else was playing the Pass. I proceeded to turn my $10 into $250 in about 1 hour just buy doing this and laying odds once I got my bankroll up to around $25 or so.
I was convinced the machine was acting like a controlled slot machine if you will and giving me the DP win to take the Pass line losses. Therefore the machine and I were the 2 winners. I may be wrong, but in my hour of esperience with this machine (I know a very, very small sample size) that's just how I felt.
I played this game for the first time this past March. I put a $10 bill in just to see what the game was all about. I put a minimum bet on the Don't Pass Line. I noticed everyone else was playing the Pass. I proceeded to turn my $10 into $250 in about 1 hour just buy doing this and laying odds once I got my bankroll up to around $25 or so.
I was convinced the machine was acting like a controlled slot machine if you will and giving me the DP win to take the Pass line losses. Therefore the machine and I were the 2 winners. I may be wrong, but in my hour of esperience with this machine (I know a very, very small sample size) that's just how I felt.
December 10th, 2012 at 11:10:35 AM
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Have you played again??Quote: mwalz9I was convinced the machine was acting like a controlled slot machine if you will and giving me the DP win to take the Pass line losses.
Therefore the machine and I were the 2 winners.
I may be wrong, but in my hour of esperience with this machine (I know a very, very small sample size) that's just how I felt.
I won a $338 field bet with a roll of a 12 (paid 2x) at Gold Strike before they lowered their limits.
I won a $300 field bet, $75 C&E and $50 12 (W2G on the $1550, total machine win was $2750) photo of w2g below
with a roll of a 12 (at Caesars Palace) I lost the $25 11 and $50 2 on the same roll.
CP since that time has lowered the 30 to 1 max bets to just $30 (and the Horn bet max $30...stupid fools)
If the machine was rigged, it would have just rolled an 8 and taken all my bets.
I also made a $61 field bet (max is $100) at El Cortez. The dice roll was a 3.
Could have just been a 6 and taken my bet. Three other players had $1 on the place 6 at the same time.
Everyone feels differently from their own experiences.
I want to see how they actually can control the dice roll outcome if they can cheat.
CP W2G
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
December 10th, 2012 at 11:21:49 AM
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Someone also hit a slot progressive for over $100,000 on a machine that others have lost hundreds in!
I'm not saying the machine doesn't let the players win sometimes!
I haven't played again. I live in West Virginia and I haven't seen this machine anywhere except in Vegas. I know it's not at The Meadows(PA) or Wheeling Island(WV).
I'm not saying the machine doesn't let the players win sometimes!
I haven't played again. I live in West Virginia and I haven't seen this machine anywhere except in Vegas. I know it's not at The Meadows(PA) or Wheeling Island(WV).
December 10th, 2012 at 1:30:49 PM
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A shooter was hitting the button every time.
The odds of rolling 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 are 16 in one trillion. (that's 16 in a million million rolls)
Now what are the odds of that happening at the instant I choose to test the machine by placing bets on Place to Loose on those numbers?
The odds of rolling 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 are 16 in one trillion. (that's 16 in a million million rolls)
Now what are the odds of that happening at the instant I choose to test the machine by placing bets on Place to Loose on those numbers?
December 10th, 2012 at 1:34:02 PM
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I am thinking, based on my 10/4 Place to Lose test, it's possible to rig the machine. That does not mean that every machine in every casino is rigged all the time. Or, that a particular machine is programmed to control the rolls all the time.
December 10th, 2012 at 1:54:20 PM
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The odds would be really high if that actually happened. But it didn't.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 10th, 2012 at 2:40:32 PM
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Quote: twData Point:
I returned from Vegas last night after playing the Bubble Craps machine at Bally's. I was sometimes putting Place to Lose bets on 4 or 10 and noticed a lost fairly often. So I did an experiment: I put on a Place to Lose on 10 for $5. After losing I added $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 10 six times in a row losing me $5, $10, $15, $20, $25, and $30.
This is hard to believe but true -- on the next roll I then switched to putting on Place to Lose on 4, adding $5 to the bet each time. The machine rolled 4 four times straight.
It rolled 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4 while I had place to loose on each of those rolls
It seems clear to me the machine can roll whatever it calculates is desirable.
PUNISHMENT. Hey I wouldn't be surprised if this happened.
I rolled six tens in a row at Cosmopolitan after losing a $25 buy on the ten (all without a single seven) .. but not a single winner on those tens.
Today, I saw another guy roll 5 hard tens and one easy ten with no bet on the ten.
Means nothing except THERE IS A SUPREME BEING THAT LOVES TO PUNISH AND TORTURE YOU! That is if you believe in supreme beings.
If you don't it means YOU SUCK!!!
aahigh.com
December 10th, 2012 at 3:25:35 PM
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The vig for Buy/Lays are on win only.Quote: AlanMendelsondo you pay the vig when you buy the 4?? I only pay the vig on the wins.
At CP the line bets are $3 min.Quote: AlanMendelsonBut getting back to Bubble Craps.
When I see it being played, players are betting $1 and $2 --
limits less than the casino minimums for the live table game.
At Caesars LV for example, their tables are usually $10 minimums but the Shoot To Win game is $1 minimum bets.
You can bet $1 on many bets but still must have a min $3 TOTAL wagered to have action.
Only 2x odds (the most one can bet for do or don't)
Place and Buys are min $1 to max $250 and a total table max bet of $500 that is just stupid for CP.
Some Other limits for CP STWCraps
BIG 6 & 8 $1 to $500!
Hardways: $1 to $100
Field: $1 to $300
C&E: $1 to $125
Horn: $1 to $30
Any Craps: $1 to $50
Seven: $1 to $200
And for the many that bet $1 place6&8 the machine rounds up to $1.17 for a $1 win.Quote: AlanMendelsonSo you get the correct payout when you place, for example, the 6, 8, etc., down to the penny.
That lowers the resolved bet HE to .03/2.20 instead of the correct unit bet of 1/66 or rounding down for a resolved bet HE to .04/2.20
(many are happy just to play the game with $1 here and there on a few numbers)
There sure are times when the shooter thinks they can control the dice rolls, waiting for a trigger to "pop" or shoot the dice.
Part of the entertainment.
Can the casino control the dice rolls??
Would not put it past them if they can get away with it.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
December 10th, 2012 at 3:43:12 PM
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Of course it is. Cheating was done back in the 1980s on VP machines. They are even more smarter these days...Quote: twI am thinking, based on my 10/4 Place to Lose test, it's possible to rig the machine.
I Agree.Quote: twThat does not mean that every machine in every casino is rigged all the time.
Or, that a particular machine is programmed to control the rolls all the time.
If I was to cheat with my new Craps machine, I would not have it cheat all the time,
just most of the time when there was a good chance of losing a few bets.
The more money the casino makes, the more money for Nevada and Nevada Gaming.
Hey,
a
win, win, win situation.
Next time I'm at Bally's (Xmas week) I will try to duplicate your test, video it and see what results.
How many other players were playing the same time you were?
Good Luck in future play!
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
December 10th, 2012 at 7:05:30 PM
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I would have murdered for that sequence when I was playing in Albuquerque.Quote: tw...10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 4, 4, 4, 4....
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 11th, 2012 at 7:15:41 AM
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The odds of rolling 10,10,10,10,10,10,4,4,4,4 is actually 61,917,364,224:1 (1/12^10)
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 11th, 2012 at 9:48:08 AM
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You know what, though? I absolutely don't doubt that it happened.
A lot of people called bullshit when I posted 9 hardways in 10 throws.
That really happened.
There are more likely explanations.
But I have rolled 6 tens in a row at the Cosmopolitan.
And here I have on video aces twice and 6-2 five times in a row after that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3fpx6TGPdQ
Last Wednesday at Red Rock, I doubled on the don't pass into some natural winners on the line (not my roll) and went 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160 and lost over $300. And that was the last $300 I had before I got paid!! I told these people right before they started shooting "just bet the opposite of me because my luck has been horrible lately!"
The chance of that happening was only 1 in 4,000, but I bet my last $300 against it happening which made it a little more unbelievable.
I think when you bet against something unlikely happening and put a lot of money behind it and you lose, it just seems really wrong.
Even casinos experience this. I've seen it. I saw two guys both bet $100 boxcars twice EACH and hit both times and walked at the Cosmopolitan.
And they didn't have a problem PAYING six grand EACH to these two lucky guys who walked up with $300 each. But it sure seemed pretty freaking unbelievable at the time. Only one of the two events were when they bet at the same time, and there were ZERO MISSES before they walked.
A lot of people called bullshit when I posted 9 hardways in 10 throws.
That really happened.
There are more likely explanations.
But I have rolled 6 tens in a row at the Cosmopolitan.
And here I have on video aces twice and 6-2 five times in a row after that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3fpx6TGPdQ
Last Wednesday at Red Rock, I doubled on the don't pass into some natural winners on the line (not my roll) and went 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160 and lost over $300. And that was the last $300 I had before I got paid!! I told these people right before they started shooting "just bet the opposite of me because my luck has been horrible lately!"
The chance of that happening was only 1 in 4,000, but I bet my last $300 against it happening which made it a little more unbelievable.
I think when you bet against something unlikely happening and put a lot of money behind it and you lose, it just seems really wrong.
Even casinos experience this. I've seen it. I saw two guys both bet $100 boxcars twice EACH and hit both times and walked at the Cosmopolitan.
And they didn't have a problem PAYING six grand EACH to these two lucky guys who walked up with $300 each. But it sure seemed pretty freaking unbelievable at the time. Only one of the two events were when they bet at the same time, and there were ZERO MISSES before they walked.
aahigh.com
December 11th, 2012 at 9:56:59 AM
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Keep in mind the odds of seeing *Any* 10 roll combination somewhere between 60,466,176:1 (7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7) AND 3,656,158,440,062,980:1 (any of the 1,024 combinations of 2s and 12s).
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 11th, 2012 at 10:01:28 AM
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I was just thinking the same thing...LoL
I saw a roll of 6,9,2,4,10,7,6,11,5,3,7.
What are the odds of that?
I saw a roll of 6,9,2,4,10,7,6,11,5,3,7.
What are the odds of that?
December 11th, 2012 at 10:50:03 AM
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Quote: mwalz9I was just thinking the same thing...LoL
I saw a roll of 6,9,2,4,10,7,6,11,5,3,7.
What are the odds of that?
Damn, those are the numbers in the system I just bought. Looks like I missed out again.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 11th, 2012 at 10:54:05 AM
permalink
Yea, Buzz, you should've seen it.
I had a $100 Pass Line bet. Point of 6 is established. I then put a $100 on the Come (Point is 9). I then put another $100 on the Come and a 2 hits. I'm down $100. I immediately panic and put a huge No 4 down. Lost. Oh Shit! What now? OK, a huge No 10. Oops! Well...it's been a good roll, at least my 2 points are still working, right? Yep. There's the 7 out! UGGGGHHH!
LoL
I had a $100 Pass Line bet. Point of 6 is established. I then put a $100 on the Come (Point is 9). I then put another $100 on the Come and a 2 hits. I'm down $100. I immediately panic and put a huge No 4 down. Lost. Oh Shit! What now? OK, a huge No 10. Oops! Well...it's been a good roll, at least my 2 points are still working, right? Yep. There's the 7 out! UGGGGHHH!
LoL
December 11th, 2012 at 1:34:36 PM
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Quote: mwalz9I was just thinking the same thing...LoL
I saw a roll of 6,9,2,4,10,7,6,11,5,3,7.
What are the odds of that?
=(5*4*1*3*3*6*5*2*4*2*6)/(36^11) = 0.00000000000393856 or 253,899,891,671:1. If you parlayed with a place of $30 on the 6, then placed the 9, then bet the Aces, then bought the 4, then the 10 (no commission of course except on the win), hopped the 7 out, then placed the 6, bet the yo, place the 5, bet the ace-deuce, then hopped the 7 out again, you'd have a nice $71,633,835 pay out.
Good luck with that.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 11th, 2012 at 5:21:48 PM
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Quote: boymimbo=(5*4*1*3*3*6*5*2*4*2*6)/(36^11) = 0.00000000000393856 or 253,899,891,671:1. If you parlayed with a place of $30 on the 6, then placed the 9, then bet the Aces, then bought the 4, then the 10 (no commission of course except on the win), hopped the 7 out, then placed the 6, bet the yo, place the 5, bet the ace-deuce, then hopped the 7 out again, you'd have a nice $71,633,835 pay out.
Good luck with that.
That's terrific!
I had opened up Google and typed, "On-Line Scientific Calculator," then decided to scroll the rest of the page. I would have had to know.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 11th, 2012 at 5:23:23 PM
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Quote: boymimbo=(5*4*1*3*3*6*5*2*4*2*6)/(36^11) = 0.00000000000393856 or 253,899,891,671:1. If you parlayed with a place of $30 on the 6, then placed the 9, then bet the Aces, then bought the 4, then the 10 (no commission of course except on the win), hopped the 7 out, then placed the 6, bet the yo, place the 5, bet the ace-deuce, then hopped the 7 out again, you'd have a nice $71,633,835 pay out.
Good luck with that.
That's a pretty cowardly way to bet it. Just hop every number.
