WOO Blackjack Trainer

Heya,

I'm new around here and I've been enjoying reading the forum, but I've also been having a lot of fun playing with the WOO BJ trainer.

My question is: Is there anyway to know when the shuffle occurs?

My suggestion is: Is to add a way to see the running count and/or true count by clicking on an icon or mousing over a symbol. It seems to me that from a programming perspective it should be fairly trivial to keep the count and calculate the true count.

Anyhow, thanks for a great site, even though I'm a table games dealer and get plenty of exposure to the myths and superstitions of players, it's fun to read about it here from a more knowledgeable perspective.

-MM

I believe it is considered an infinite deck.

Quote: odiousgambit

I believe it is considered an infinite deck.

Not exactly; from what it says on the page it is played with a finite number of decks (1, 2, or 6, whichever you choose), but shuffling occurs after every hand. Basically his game plays similar to a CSM.

Well, that's disappointing. I was really hoping I was just missing something that indicated the shuffle had occurred. And, if that's the case, it makes it impractical for counting practice.

Does anyone know of a free game that would allow counting practice?

There are a bunch on line. Google around a little.
Try this...
blackjack trainer

Quote: WongBo

Try this...
blackjack trainer

That one is close to what I'm looking for, I just wish there was more flexibility about selecting the rules. I do like that you can show or hide the count info.

It also seems odd to me that I can't get more than 5 hands out of a 4 deck game before it reshuffles. That's not very many hands to take advantage of a good count.

Isn't it true that when the odds or certain betting strategies are calculated, using a simulator, it uses an infinite deck, or continuously shuffles in the code? I certainly understand that will work in calculating Basic Strategy, but it just doesn't seem entirely accurate for certain betting strategies. Let's say I press my bet after each win, there must certainly be plenty of instances during real play, where my bet is pressed up, AND I'm a favorite to win the hand, whereas the simulator will always be using the standard odds, and I would NEVER be a favorite on winning a bigger bet. This would drastically overestimate average loss over, say, 1,000,000 hands.

Quote: ewjones080

Isn't it true that when the odds or certain betting strategies are calculated, using a simulator, it uses an infinite deck, or continuously shuffles in the code? I certainly understand that will work in calculating Basic Strategy, but it just doesn't seem entirely accurate for certain betting strategies. Let's say I press my bet after each win, there must certainly be plenty of instances during real play, where my bet is pressed up, AND I'm a favorite to win the hand, whereas the simulator will always be using the standard odds, and I would NEVER be a favorite on winning a bigger bet. This would drastically overestimate average loss over, say, 1,000,000 hands.

I doubt it would drastically overestimate average losses, because while it's true you'll never be a favorite on winning a bigger bet, you also will never see a situation where the house has a humongous advantage over you (i.e. when the count has descended into serious negative territory).

If one were to simulate a billion hands on a CSM blackjack game and a billion hands on a 6-deck game with a shuffle card, the results would approximate the house edge. Even if you were varying your bets "randomly" or according to a (non-counting) progression or other system, pretty sure that would be the case.

WRT to the original question, I have one on my Android phone that I like: Real Blackjack. You can vary the rules and number of decks to approximate most casino games. I wish it would let you vary the penetration, as it is I believe it cuts off 1 deck from all 6, 4, and 2 deck games (not sure on single deck). It has some cool features like the ability to see the running count/true count based on a few different systems (HiLo and KO at least), and also you can check a table to see exactly which cards are remaining in the shoe at any given time, which allows you to use any counting system you want and double check your skill at the end of the shoe.

I haven't looked around seriously for a web-based game. For desktop software, there is all of the CV products at qfit.com, but they are rather pricey. Worth it if you are a pro or a dedicated amateur, but maybe not if you just want to practice. Best way to practice: bust out your own decks of cards and practice on the couch while you're watching TV :)

Quote: ewjones080

Isn't it true that when the odds or certain betting strategies are calculated, using a simulator, it uses an infinite deck, or continuously shuffles in the code? I certainly understand that will work in calculating Basic Strategy, but it just doesn't seem entirely accurate for certain betting strategies. Let's say I press my bet after each win, there must certainly be plenty of instances during real play, where my bet is pressed up, AND I'm a favorite to win the hand, whereas the simulator will always be using the standard odds, and I would NEVER be a favorite on winning a bigger bet. This would drastically overestimate average loss over, say, 1,000,000 hands.

Basic strategy is calculated using full combinatorial analysis of the 3 starting known cards (2 for player and one for dealer). That means a program goes through all posible combinations one by one to come with the strategy that maximises Ev. Simulations are also used to confirmed the results.

Infinite deck means that each card rank has 1/13 probality of coming at all times. It is used as an approximation technique to calculate probabilities of games with a specific number of decks. For example is you play with 6 decks and the initial 3 cards are 6,7 v 8. That means that if you hit the probability of the next card being a six is 23/309 which is slighlty kower than 1/13. An infinite deck aproximation calculation will use the value 1/13 instead of 23/309. The infinite deck method is used because it makes caculations a lot easier and quicker and will give results very close to the correct result. But for exact results the infinite deck method is not used.

Known Information
Basic strategy calculation (either by combinatorial or simulation method) uses information only of the initial 3 cards of the hand and any subsequent hit cards.
So it calculates the strategy as if this is the first hand of the shoe.
Hoever this is exactly the same calculation if it is a subsequent hand in th shoe because it does not take into account all the cards that have been seen.
Strategey is calculated using known information. The known information for Basic Sttetegy is only the cards in the current hand, all other cards that have come before is not considered known for calculated BS.
If you take into account the known cards that have come in past hands, that strategy is called card counting and with regard to play decisions, index variations from BS.

There is a really good trainer out there on the web from a site called www.blackjackinfo.com The full screen trainer flash is:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bst/BlackjackStrategyTrainer.swf

The site doesn't do the counting for you, but it does have about any scenario you'd like to define as far as number of decks and dealer rules. It usually shuffles the whole shoe when there is a single deck left in the shoe, or about 50% in a Single Deck game. Plus with the trainer strategy coach function ON, it will tell you if you make any mistakes and keeps track of how well your play would be graded.

That one is really nice looking, and I appreciate seeing where my bankroll is in comparison to how many hands I've won/lost/pushed. Thanks for sharing it.

No problem. I too appreciate seeing how many hands have won/lost/pushed. Interestingly, a loss and a push both count against your winning percentage if I understand the way it keeps track of your play. I guess it's just based on the number of hands played. Either it's a win or it isn't a win.