Blackjack tournament fiasco

As WongBo has asked me why I will no longer bring my gaming dollars to Bally's AC - despite my casino host pleading with me otherwise - here is the incident that happened this past weekend:

There is a weekly BJ tournament at Bally's AC. Admission is free, there are 5 winners (1 at each table of $1,000) and 5 second place winners (1 at each table of $200). I have played in this tournament for fun and to socialize for the past couple of years and have gotten to know the PB's and dealers in the tournament - who are genuinely nice people.

This past weekend, I made it to the final round (15 hands, sequential betting with a button moving the start of the deal). After 7 hands, I was the chip leader at the table and the button was at the second seat (I was sitting at first base (random selection of seating)). Therefore, I was to receive my cards last. I had a $40k bet up (everyone starts with $20k in chips) and was the chip leader.

I was dealt a 4,3 and the dealer had a 6 upcard. Two of the other 5 people at the table busted. The dealer moved to third base and the lady there busted as well. Now, it would be my turn to hit. However, the dealer skipped me, flipped over his hole card to reveal a K (now having 6,K) and proceeds to hit himself with a 4 - totally skipping me.

I protested as he was dealing himself the card. The PB arrived at the scene and the table informed him what happened. PB stated that it was a dealer mistake and that I could take the next card. I said I wanted the 4 as it was supposed to be my card. PB again stated that it was a dealer mistake (I, in turn, asked the PB if the same rules apply to players - i.e. if I hit a card and I bust, can I say I made a mistake in hitting and therefore take a new card??? - this logic was lost on him).

After about 20 minutes of the table arguing on my behalf, the PB decided to let me take my bet back and have it be a non-hand. Fine by me. However, once this was done - everyone at the table decided they needed to get in on the act - including those that had already busted. They claimed they deserved the same treatment I got. The PB tried arguing with them but was timid. In the face of the commotion, the PB decided to pay everyone whatever their bet was, regardless of whether or not they busted and the dealer had removed their chips from the betting circle.

This is where it gets interesting. The PB told the dealer to pay me my initial bet $40k. HOWEVER, he then went around the table asking the players what their bets were!!! Of course, everyone now claimed they had anywhere from 90%-100% of their bankroll on the table - AND THE PB PAID THEM. People who were virtually out of it now had moved even with me.

I told the PB, who I had always gotten along with, that this was a recipe for disaster as someone suggested that they check the tapes and see what people actually bet - which , at one point, prompted an African American gentleman to exclaim "let's not get racist by trying to keep a brother down" - it basically turned into a free for all and I decided to vacate the table. I promptly phoned my host to inform her of the unprofessionalism and lack of transparency in the tournament and I would be taking my business to Revel (who have invited me for a weekend in a couple of weeks to entice me to play there).

I will always hold a place in my heart for Bally's AC as the casino that got me started, but this incident left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

I know others here might tell me to suck it up, but, as gamblers (even counters) we tend to be a superstitious bunch and this left a feeling a bad vibes.

Admin Note: I separated the story into paragraphs to make it easier to read. - JB

This seems like an obvious situation where you get the 4. You did not stay on 7, and the card is obviously yours, especially if you caught it in mid hand. I've seen this plenty of times and have either seen a hand declared dead, or the player getting the card. I've never seen them burn a card in the middle of a shoe unless there was a major error that could not be corrected otherwise. This was such a simple solution that they screwed up. I would be pissed too, especially since they refused to go to the tape to fix it after they made it worse.

I go back under one condition. They give me my expected value at that point in promotional chips or free play. Otherwise, forget it.

that is the kind of thing that would happen in a garage game.
you should have filed a formal complaint with the shift manager and gaming.
it is totally inexcusable. i am sorry this happened to you.
i know how much it sucks to become disillusioned with a casino you like,
i recently stopped going to the Trop because of the incredible rudeness
and their refusal to comp my drinks after i have been playing there for thirty years.
i personally hate all of the caesar properties and never give them a dime of action,
and as much as i like hearing about them losing loyal customers,
i know it sucks to have to give up on a place that you really enjoy.
maybe you will go back there after the dust settles, but if not
good luck finding another tournament.

I spent the rest of the weekend BS'g with the dealers and PB's in the high limit room I have become friendly with - as well as the multitude of regular players. I hung out all day with them and rooted for them to break the bank - all the while, not playing one hand.

maybe i will have a team of counters descend on their high limit room one of these days...lol
if only the blackjack in PA wasn't SO much better and i didn't hate caesars...

Quote: WongBo

maybe i will have a team of counters descend on their high limit room one of these days...lol
if only the blackjack in PA wasn't SO much better and i didn't hate caesars...

Long live blackjack card counters!!!

This sounds like an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Okay, I do not quite follow what happened but it seems this must have been a trainee PitBoss and somewhere along the line he simply lacked depth of experience expected of him. His position seems strange and I don't see why he wanted to make it a dead card.

Where I work they say they can't "back up" the cards, as in, as soon as the dealer has played a card, they can't move that card to the previous or next player, they would just burn that card and presume normal play. And if the case allows it, players can't elect to not finish that hand. But this is regular BJ. I would think for tournaments they realize mistakes like this will happen (due to the dealer button), and there's no real money on the line, so they should be able to move the cards.

Standard procedure in BJ on an error is to never allow the backup of any exposed cards to an "earlier" playing position, no matter how unfair the seems.
You can generally select:
1. Hit for a new card, as the exposed card is known;
2. Stay on the hand, or
3. Declare you hand dead - no action.

Quote: aceofspades

However, the dealer skipped me, flipped over his hole card to reveal a K (now having 6,K) and proceeds to hit himself with a 4 - totally skipping me.

You should have stopped the action when the dealer flipped over his hole card.

Once the next card is revealed, they cannot back it up to give it to you.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

You should have stopped the action when the dealer flipped over his hole card.

Once the next card is revealed, they cannot back it up to give it to you.

I think he tried to, but the dealer was too fast between flipping his hole card and pulling the hit card that it was too late.

Quote: JB

I think he tried to, but the dealer was too fast between flipping his hole card and pulling the hit card that it was too late.

Yea - my protest coincided with my seeing the dealer flip the hole card. I will still go by Bally's AC to socialize but I will not play there.

My opinion goes along with what Dan said. The general rule is that once a card is played it is never moved to another position. So, I don't think your request to get the 4 should have been granted. This is getting outside my area, but I think the correct course of action would be to give you the choice of (1) play out your hand against the known 20, (2) burn the 4 and take your turn, or (3) call the hand dead for all players left standing, which was only you. Some casinos might have a policy against option (2). In retrospect, you fought too hard. The supervisor may not have understood that in tournaments the opponent is not the dealer, but the other players are, so in giving the other players free chips it hurts your odds. Seems obvious, but many don't get the concept.

deleted

Quote: Wizard

My opinion goes along with what Dan said. The general rule is that once a card is played it is never moved to another position. So, I don't think your request to get the 4 should have been granted. This is getting outside my area, but I think the correct course of action would be to give you the choice of (1) play out your hand against the known 20, (2) burn the 4 and take your turn, or (3) call the hand dead for all players left standing, which was only you. Some casinos might have a policy against option (2). In retrospect, you fought too hard. The supervisor may not have understood that in tournaments the opponent is not the dealer, but the other players are, so in giving the other players free chips it hurts your odds. Seems obvious, but many don't get the concept.

I would gladly have taken it as a dead hand - which I did and had my chips returned to me. However, other players who already busted began rioting because they had already lost their hands ( I wonder what their reactions would have been had they received Blackjacks (which pay 2 to 1 in the tournament)...? I am sure they would not have protested at all. It was the paying out of chips based on what each player stated they had bet that pushed it over the edge...after all, Bally's is owned by Harrah's/Caesar's and we all know they are reputable (i.e. Watanabe LOL)

Although a rampant rumor from my sources at Bally's AC tell me that the Borgata is on the verge of purchasing Bally's from Harrah's/Caesar's

Quote: aceofspades

However, other players who already busted began rioting because they had already lost their hands

They had no justification in rioting, as the correct rules were followed when they busted. They probably knew that and were just taking a shot. As I wrote, the supervisor probably didn't understand that chips in a tournament are like ammunition, which is used against YOU.

I understand that you're angry, but if you're otherwise happy with that casino I wouldn't let this fiasco ruin it. As the saying goes, sometimes ... you know what ... just happens.

Quote: Wizard

They had no justification in rioting, as the correct rules were followed when they busted. They probably knew that and were just taking a shot. As I wrote, the supervisor probably didn't understand that chips in a tournament are like ammunition, which is used against YOU.

I understand that you're angry, but if you're otherwise happy with that casino I wouldn't let this fiasco ruin it. As the saying goes, sometimes ... you know what ... just happens.

I hear you Wiz - but the bad taste has not yet gone away. I am going to hit Caesar's Palace next week - buy you a drink if you're around!!!

Quote: aceofspades

Although a rampant rumor from my sources at Bally's AC tell me that the Borgata is on the verge of purchasing Bally's from Harrah's/Caesar's

I have to believe this is just a rumor. First, Borgata is owned by cooperation, made up of Boyd Gaming and trust set up by MGM. While Borgata is doing well, I don't think they have the capital to buy a property at the most recognized intersection perhaps in the world (Boardwalk/Park Place). Boyd certainly can't buy it by themselves, and MGM CAN'T buy it, so that seems like an odd move. Second, Bally's is too connected to Caesars to be sold. I know WWW is closed now, but there are a lot of hotel rooms that Caesars uses over in the Bally's complex.

Showboat is more likely the property that Caesars is interested in selling. There is a bit of equity in it now with its proximity to Revel, and the brand doesn't really fit into the mold anymore. I like Bally's myself, but if you're going to boycott one, you really should boycott Caesars as well. They are basically the same property.

Well, the thing that always got me about Caesar's AC was that the high limit room (and, to a certain extent the rest of the vibe) felt very corporate to me. Now, when I stay at Caesar's Palace in LV, I do not get that vibe (could it be selective on my part, perhaps). The dealers and PB's at Bally's AC have been genuine with me and I will miss playing there. However, if the Revel comes through for me once I make my initial stay there in May (courtesy of my Revel host), I will make Revel my east coast casino of choice. However, that leaves me with a gap for LV as I will no longer have the "Total Rewards" hook-up for the comps from the Harrah's/Caesar's conglomerate in LV.