playing 2 or more hands at the BJ table...and some craps talk
April 11th, 2012 at 12:36:47 PM
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I'm sure this topic has been covered 100's of times on here, but I cant find them. What are your thoughts(playing multiple hands at the BJ table)? And why do people do it? I can understand if you want to play $500 a hand but the table limit is $100 so you play 5 hands. But if the table limit is $500 and you are playing 3 hands a $40. I really don't see the point. I'm sure the thinking behind it is that you are decreasing variance. So you can play longer on the same bankroll.....
So if you wanted to bet $100 a hand based on your bankroll, you would "in theory" be able to play longer playing 4 hands at $25. Here is the problem I have with that. You are not only decreasing negative variance but also positive variance. And you are playing a negative expectation game!! So the only chance you have of walking away a winner is because positive variance. So by playing 2 hands or more you decrease your chances of being a winner(for the session) in exchange for losing slower? Doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me....
I guess the same point could be made for Craps, people who bet P/L and place the 6,8 and make multiple come bets(as I do). But in Craps we do it for increase "action" so the game is not so boring. If you just bet P/L with odds you could be waiting a while for your bet to be resolved, So the added bets are to make the game more enjoyable. But is that the case in BJ?
So if you wanted to bet $100 a hand based on your bankroll, you would "in theory" be able to play longer playing 4 hands at $25. Here is the problem I have with that. You are not only decreasing negative variance but also positive variance. And you are playing a negative expectation game!! So the only chance you have of walking away a winner is because positive variance. So by playing 2 hands or more you decrease your chances of being a winner(for the session) in exchange for losing slower? Doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me....
I guess the same point could be made for Craps, people who bet P/L and place the 6,8 and make multiple come bets(as I do). But in Craps we do it for increase "action" so the game is not so boring. If you just bet P/L with odds you could be waiting a while for your bet to be resolved, So the added bets are to make the game more enjoyable. But is that the case in BJ?
April 11th, 2012 at 12:59:32 PM
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Quote: vert1276What are your thoughts(playing multiple hands at the BJ table)? I really don't see the point.
And you are playing a negative expectation game!! So the only chance you have of walking away a winner is because positive variance. But in Craps we do it for increase "action" so the game is not so boring.
Explain to me the 'point' of playing BJ at all, since as you say, it is a negative expectation game. When you do I'll explain the point of doing it twice as much.
I think you really answered your own question, 'for increased action so the game is not so boring'.
The one practical reason.... since there is one less person sitting at the table the chances of a smoker sitting next to you is lessened.
April 11th, 2012 at 12:59:41 PM
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speaking only for myself. i like the increase in action.
i like that if i have several hands, i have several results per round.
i can play 200 hundreds hands an hour if i feel like it.
do not have to wait through each round.
also if i am with a friend or two we have the table to ourselves.
from a counting perspective, when the count goes positive
i get more exposure to the good cards and they are not eaten up by other players.
can get more money in action if warranted.
i like that if i have several hands, i have several results per round.
i can play 200 hundreds hands an hour if i feel like it.
do not have to wait through each round.
also if i am with a friend or two we have the table to ourselves.
from a counting perspective, when the count goes positive
i get more exposure to the good cards and they are not eaten up by other players.
can get more money in action if warranted.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
April 11th, 2012 at 1:48:11 PM
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I absolutely agree that the drive to "decrease variance" makes absolutely no sense in a negative expectation game. It basically translates to "lose more surely". Who wants that.
I can see playing more than one hand as means to get "more play" in the same amount of time. If you are not playing to win, why not?
When counting, I am not so sure that playing multiple hands is beneficial (aside from camouflaging the spread, and (rudely) keeping other players out) - if one hand gets good cards, that reduces the count, so the other hand's EV becomes lower. I think, you are better off playing one hand for twice the bet.
I can see playing more than one hand as means to get "more play" in the same amount of time. If you are not playing to win, why not?
When counting, I am not so sure that playing multiple hands is beneficial (aside from camouflaging the spread, and (rudely) keeping other players out) - if one hand gets good cards, that reduces the count, so the other hand's EV becomes lower. I think, you are better off playing one hand for twice the bet.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
April 11th, 2012 at 2:00:29 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOI think you really answered your own question, 'for increased action so the game is not so boring'.
Uh, if you need to make the game "less boring," then perhaps you shouldn¿t be playing at all (unless you're an AP). I can't wrap my brain around the notion of playing a negative expectation game that's also boring.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 11th, 2012 at 2:09:21 PM
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Quote: NareedI can't wrap my brain around the notion of playing a negative expectation game that's also boring.
Playing is not boring. Sitting and waiting for your turn could be.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
April 11th, 2012 at 2:17:29 PM
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Quote: NareedI can't wrap my brain around the notion of playing a negative expectation game that's also boring.
there is a term for this phenomenon..it is called "slot machine"
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
April 11th, 2012 at 2:38:35 PM
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That little red button can get mighty boring real fast!
April 11th, 2012 at 3:00:17 PM
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I wonder if there's a single advantage player where I deal, and why does there seem to be so many bad players compared to other places, because nobody else on these boards seem to talk about bad players. I would guess about 80-90% of those that play two hands are trying to "change the cards" because they've lost several in a row.
April 11th, 2012 at 4:40:49 PM
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The reason we dont talk about bad players is because they will not listen. Same reason most of us have never sat at a 6-5 table unless to drunk to see the sign or wanting to sit next to a hot babe.
April 11th, 2012 at 11:50:20 PM
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I like the decrease in variance which really comes down to just more good hands. I compare it to paigow poker. More ties than winners or loosers. I can still press heavily while playing 2 hands, so I'm still going to win a lot on a very hot table.
I don't play more than 2 hands just because I still enjoy playing with others, so taking up 4-5 spots on a table means I'm playing my myself at that point. While it does decrease variance more, it just removes too much of the enjoyment of the game to me.
I don't play more than 2 hands just because I still enjoy playing with others, so taking up 4-5 spots on a table means I'm playing my myself at that point. While it does decrease variance more, it just removes too much of the enjoyment of the game to me.
April 12th, 2012 at 5:41:47 AM
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Quote: ewjones080about 80-90% of those that play two hands are trying to "change the cards" because they've lost several in a row.
And here we go :-)
Quote: soulhunt79I can still press heavily while playing 2 hands, so I'm still going to win a lot on a very hot table.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
April 14th, 2012 at 5:25:04 PM
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Finally looked this up:
https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/blackjack/multiple-hands/
[about a third of the way down the page]
Quote: the WizardWhether online or a land casino there is no advantage to playing more than one hand.
https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/blackjack/multiple-hands/
[about a third of the way down the page]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 14th, 2012 at 7:48:23 PM
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Does playing multiple hands increase or decrease variance? My guess would be increase. If you are playing 50 hands at $20 a hand or 25 hands at $10 hand two hands per deal. Actually now that I typed it out, I really can't decide. EDIT - Sorry should be $20 per hand in both examples
April 14th, 2012 at 8:53:21 PM
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Yes, if you bet the same amount per hand, then the more hands you play the greater the variance. But when betting the same total amount, the variance is decreased if you spread it across multiple hands.Quote: FinsRuleDoes playing multiplue hands increase or decrease variance? My guess would be increase. If you are playing 50 hands at $20 a hand or 25 hands at $10 hand two hands per deal. Actually now that I typed it out, I really can't decide. EDIT - Sorry should be $20 per hand in both examples
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
April 15th, 2012 at 9:31:24 AM
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Yes, if you are a regular $50-a-hand bettor, 2 hands of $25 will be less variance. How much less depends on how you calculate the correlation variable. A good question would be what offers more variance: one hand of $50 or two hands of $30?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
April 24th, 2012 at 12:40:48 AM
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Quote: ewjones080I wonder if there's a single advantage player where I deal, and why does there seem to be so many bad players compared to other places, because nobody else on these boards seem to talk about bad players. I would guess about 80-90% of those that play two hands are trying to "change the cards" because they've lost several in a row.
Or they claim as much, as part of their cover.
April 24th, 2012 at 9:35:22 AM
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Quote: ewjones080I wonder if there's a single advantage player where I deal, and why does there seem to be so many bad players compared to other places, because nobody else on these boards seem to talk about bad players. I would guess about 80-90% of those that play two hands are trying to "change the cards" because they've lost several in a row.
There are more bad players out there than you may realize. I spend a fair amount of hours playing blackjack, and it's extremely rare to even see someone play perfect basic strategy. And I'm not exaggerating; many players assume that others know BS, but watch what people do with 99 v 9, 12 v 2, 33 v 7; A8 v 6, A7 v 2, and 11 v A in a H17 game; and so on. The average gambler is playing at twice the actual house edge in most cases, and at least several times worse in many! I would estimate that the average gambler plays with a 1.5-2% disadvantage in standard H17 DOA DAS game.
Advantage players? There aren't many out there. It's unlikely that you'll run into one, especially if your casino is in a somewhat isolated area. There are simply so few actual skilled players in relation to the hordes of gamblers out there that the odds of you coming across one on anything more than extremely rare occasions are pretty slim.
As far as playing two or more spots goes, it does decrease variance when the amount wagered is spread across two spots. For card counters, spreading to two hands allows you to bet 150% your one-spot wager with roughly equal variance. For gamblers, it allows them to play more rounds (more decisions/trials = more interesting to many players). That's why VP is so popular (very fast, constant action). It's no different—though maybe slightly less alarming—than the slot machine player playing two machines at once.
April 24th, 2012 at 10:17:59 AM
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" There are more bad players out there than you may realize. " Were it not for those wonderful players, what casino could deal
$5 blackjack ?
I predict that in the near future an Indian casino will be dealing 6/5 BJ with an ante. Or are they already ?
$5 blackjack ?
I predict that in the near future an Indian casino will be dealing 6/5 BJ with an ante. Or are they already ?
April 24th, 2012 at 1:32:36 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffI predict that in the near future an Indian casino will be dealing 6/5 BJ with an ante. Or are they already ?
Buzz, there are a few out there...mostly tho on single deck games...
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
April 24th, 2012 at 1:32:38 PM
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Isn't MGM Grand Detroit dealing 6:5 with a $0.25 ante on it's "$1 minimum" games in the party pit? You have to play $20 or $25 (depending on the table) to avoid the ante.
April 24th, 2012 at 2:40:11 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 24th, 2012 at 4:01:29 PM
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That's what I meant, an ante when you play under the posted "table minimum," which I've seen at $20 and $25, but that's always been on weekend nights, so that's probably why. Are you sure about the even-money thing? If so that's way more heinous than I had realized.Quote: IbeatyouracesYou only pay the ante when you bet less than table min which is usually $10 or $15. Then on top of it, if you do all of this, bj pays EVEN MONEY! And they do have 3:2 bj in the main pit most of the time at $10 and $15.
April 24th, 2012 at 4:12:11 PM
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Quote: ShiftyRickyBuzz, there are a few out there...mostly tho on single deck games...
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. - Navajo
April 24th, 2012 at 5:32:01 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
April 25th, 2012 at 10:07:29 AM
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Ha ha ha, what nerve!
