admirepr
admirepr
Joined: Mar 29, 2012
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 5
March 30th, 2012 at 9:02:07 AM permalink
I'm a dealer here in Puerto Rico and one of the tables that I work on is a $3/$100 low limit table. But, you can surrender $3 for $2. What is the advantage that the player has when this is true. Also, should game strategy be accommodated to fit with the $2 for $3 surrender advantage?

Rules:
A. 6 decks, only use 4.5
B. no resplitting aces,
C. Split 4 times,
D. 3/2 BJ pay
E. Dealer stands on all 17's.)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 180
  • Posts: 10299
March 30th, 2012 at 10:07:07 AM permalink
This very topic was brought up in another thread recently, about the same situation at a $5 table:
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/8875-profitable-surrender/

It certainly does change things, but the advantage deminishes as the bet size gets bigger, making flat betting the way to go.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
March 30th, 2012 at 12:35:57 PM permalink
Quote: admirepr

Also, should game strategy be accommodated to fit with the $2 for $3 surrender advantage?



Certainly it would change the strategy. Normally the recommended move is to surrender if all possible moves have an expected value of -.50 or less. Now you should surrender if all possible moves (hit, stand, double or split) have an E.V. of -.3333 or less.

It is a little different than the game in the previous thread, that had a minimum of $5 which you can surrender for $2 (surrender on -.400 or less). Also the game in the previous thread only pays 6/5 blackjack.


Look up odds for 6 decks dealer stands on all 17's.
To get the exact odds, you need to know the "double after split" rule for your casino.

For instance double 8's against a dealer 10 would normally be played with a split, but you would surrender with these rules
Dealer, Player, Stand, Hit, Double, Split DAS-No , Split DAS-Yes, Probability
10 8,8 -0.536853 -0.535361 -1.070722 -0.486276 -0.475385 0.00162488

The probabilities are probably low enough that you won't turn the entire game to a player advantage. Even if it was a player advantage, the very low stakes mean that you won't win very much money.

For instance, these are the normal cases where you should surrender
Dealer: Player
9: 9,7 = 16
9: 10,6 = 16

10: 9,6 = 15
10: 10,5 = 15

10: 9,7 = 16
10: 10,6 = 16

A: 9,7 = 16
A: 10,6 = 16


Under the surrender $3 and get back $2 you would surrender all these cases.

Dealer: Player
10 : 4 , 2 = 6

9 : 7 , 5 = 12
9 : 8 , 4 = 12
9 : 9 , 3 = 12
9 : 10 , 2 = 12
10 : 7 , 5 = 12
10 : 8 , 4 = 12
10 : 9 , 3 = 12
10 : 10 , 2 = 12
A : 7 , 5 = 12
A : 8 , 4 = 12
A : 9 , 3 = 12
A : 10 , 2 = 12

8 : 7 , 6 = 13
8 : 8 , 5 = 13
9 : 7 , 6 = 13
9 : 8 , 5 = 13
9 : 9 , 4 = 13
9 : 10 , 3 = 13
10 : 7 , 6 = 13
10 : 8 , 5 = 13
10 : 9 , 4 = 13
10 : 10 , 3 = 13
A : 7 , 6 = 13
A : 8 , 5 = 13
A : 9 , 4 = 13
A : 10 , 3 = 13

8 : 8 , 6 = 14
8 : 9 , 5 = 14
8 : 10 , 4 = 14
9 : 8 , 6 = 14
9 : 9 , 5 = 14
9 : 10 , 4 = 14
10 : 8 , 6 = 14
10 : 9 , 5 = 14
10 : 10 , 4 = 14
A : 8 , 6 = 14
A : 9 , 5 = 14
A : 10 , 4 = 14

7 : 8 , 7 = 15
7 : 9 , 6 = 15
7 : 10 , 5 = 15
8 : 8 , 7 = 15
8 : 9 , 6 = 15
8 : 10 , 5 = 15
9 : 8 , 7 = 15
9 : 9 , 6 = 15
9 : 10 , 5 = 15
10 : 8 , 7 = 15
10 : 9 , 6 = 15
10 : 10 , 5 = 15
A : 8 , 7 = 15
A : 9 , 6 = 15
A : 10 , 5 = 15

7 : 9 , 7 = 16
7 : 10 , 6 = 16
8 : 9 , 7 = 16
8 : 10 , 6 = 16
9 : 9 , 7 = 16
9 : 10 , 6 = 16
10 : 9 , 7 = 16
10 : 10 , 6 = 16
A : 9 , 7 = 16
A : 10 , 6 = 16

8 : 9 , 8 = 17
8 : 10 , 7 = 17
9 : 9 , 8 = 17
9 : 10 , 7 = 17
10 : 9 , 8 = 17
10 : 10 , 7 = 17
A : 9 , 8 = 17
A : 10 , 7 = 17

PAIRS

10 : 3 , 3 = 6

9 : 6 , 6 = 12
10 : 6 , 6 = 12
A : 6 , 6 = 12

8 : 7 , 7 = 14
9 : 7 , 7 = 14
10 : 7 , 7 = 14
A : 7 , 7 = 14

9 : 8 , 8 = 16
10 : 8 , 8 = 16
A : 8 , 8 = 16
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4299
March 30th, 2012 at 1:13:25 PM permalink
It's kind of pointless, isn't it? If you're playing $3 blackjack, the swing in EV from knowing the exact strategy for this round-up variation is going to net you...a few cents here and there.

I guess it's an interesting math exercise, I'm just not interested in it from that point of view.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
March 30th, 2012 at 1:40:26 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

It's kind of pointless, isn't it? If you're playing $3 blackjack, the swing in EV from knowing the exact strategy for this round-up variation is going to net you...a few cents here and there.

I guess it's an interesting math exercise, I'm just not interested in it from that point of view.



Well, by your reasoning $3 blackjack is pretty pointless.

But if surrendering a dollar every time the dealer shows a 9,10 or ace (except if you have 18-20) makes the house edge nearly zero, a flea might be able to sit and drink for free all night.
weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
March 30th, 2012 at 2:28:16 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin


But if surrendering a dollar every time the dealer shows a 9,10 or ace (except if you have 18-20) makes the house edge nearly zero, a flea might be able to sit and drink for free all night.


No, not zero. It actually gives you a pretty substantial advantage.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
winmonkeyspit3
winmonkeyspit3
Joined: Dec 30, 2011
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 451
March 30th, 2012 at 2:41:21 PM permalink
I think that there would be a substantial edge. The casinos are willing to pay a dealer and a percentage of a floor supervisor's salary to have this $3 table. Shift that advantage to the player, it may be a dollar or two an hour. If you love to play, this can turn long term profits. Also, free drinks and potentially comps if enough hours are played would be nice.
weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 2349
March 30th, 2012 at 2:49:39 PM permalink
The edge I am getting (with infinite decks) is about 1.8%. If you play 100 hands per hour, you'd be making about $5.40 on average. Not a huge profit, but still beats playing at a disadvantage.
As for the strategy, I am getting that you want to surrender all 12-17 (including 7,7 and 6,6) hands against 9-A, 14-17 against 8, 15-16 against 7. Also, surrender a 6 (yes, six, including 3,3) and a pair of 8s against a 10.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
winmonkeyspit3
winmonkeyspit3
Joined: Dec 30, 2011
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 451
March 30th, 2012 at 4:12:58 PM permalink
Also, betting at such low limits you aren't very likely to bust your bankroll. If I could chill in Puerto Rico and make $40.00 a day playing blackjack I'd do it in a minute.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
March 30th, 2012 at 4:43:56 PM permalink
I wonder if you could play 2 spots at $3 each and make double....

This is good advantage play.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!

  • Jump to: