Is Counting Cheating?

Quote: Switch

Actually, without going into details, Steve made the bulk of his Blackjack-playing income from using other advantage plays aside from counting. He did not use any form of cheating to get the edge, i.e. devices, marking etc., it was all using the mind.

Also, I can attest to his win as I was there for a large proportion of the time and witnessed the wins.

WHERE ARE THE BOOKS AND STATS TO PROVE IT? WHERE WAS THE CAMERA CATCHING ALL THE ACTION? WHERE WAS THE INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT TO VERIFY THE VIDEO IS LEGIT???...

Wait, isn't that what we are asking for when we ask to see the rule that says counting cards is BREAKING A RULE? Oh wait, we are just stubborn mules who refuse to listen to what the experts say... Clearly, we don't know what we are talking about since we are not dealers...

Quote: dm

SIMPLE. If they don't worry about it and act accordingly anyone can make money counting. You forgot the most important
adjective-unethical.

I can attest that Dan could have only voted twice for "yes."

No, just once. I don't have to vote twice. that would be unethical.

Quote: EvenBob

HUH??? If thats true, why on earth would a casino
give one damn about what card counters do?

Because it increases expenses, reduces table hold, slows down pit operations, a whole host of problems.

Quote: EvenBob

The truth is, a
casino would go out of business if all they had to live
on was the HE.

No Bob, the hold is enough. It covers expenses.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Actually, SOMEHOW DEFENDING DAN, I don't think anybody is questioning the legality of card counting. He himself said that the CASINOS consider it cheating, but once you get outside the casino, the police will not back you up.

Never had any doubt about that. The ground rules enforced on the casino floor are usually different than what the police are interested in doing.
There are no police reports that player x went from $25 to $500 a hand during a positive count sequence. There are casino pit and surveillance reports that have that.

Quote: tiltpoul

The forum question is "Is Card Counting Cheating?" Dan would argue this to be absolutely true, and using any knowledge you may have in your brain to make a decision about what to bet could cause the casinos to go crazy and say you are breaking a rule.

Casino's view is different than the players view, or even the police's view. The pit boss decides, not the player or a police captain.
The don't go crazy, they roll their eyes, "think, aw, another slick bastard to worry about and waste our time..."

Quote: tiltpoul

I may just start a forum, saying "Is Playing Perfect Basic Strategy Cheating?" It gives you an edge, and sure the gift shop may sell the card, but if you're using it on a table, that could be considered cheating.

No, you may use a Basic strategy all you want, even with a basic strategy card in many place. 100% A-okay.

Quote: tiltpoul

And Wiz, according to Dan, there are no successful card counters out there, and certainly none on this forum. You can read his explicit BOLDED statement in a few posts... you would be better off playing EZ Pai Gow with a 2.47% house edge than Blackjack. You will not make any money on blackjack and you never will.

Perhpas you would. I know at least one player who made $200,000 one night off of EZ Pai Gow, and not one who made that level of money playing BJ. Maybe the guy in Atlantic City, but he was playing $200,000 getting lucky.
Casinos are there to be entertainment options, they aren't there to be considered personal banks where we could do whatever the hell we want, and not play by the rules. This view of casinos is not present around here, it really isn't. What's here are these views:
Casinos are evil,
Casinos are there to take our money,
Casinos are there for us to take THEIR money,
Casinos are the enemy, etc....
never,
"Casinos offer a multiutude of games for our recreation, and are one of many entertainment options."

Quote: Paigowdan

No Bob, the hold is enough. It covers expenses.

So now you're saying its the hold and not the
HE that pays for everything? Make up your
mind. The hold and HE aren't the same thing,
you know. You do know that, right?

Quote: boymimbo

I'll state my opinion again.

If Lubin's point is to be taken as true and casinos don't tolerate counting, well then, get rid of the shoe and go with CSMs all the way. Offer better rules as the denominations go up, but get rid of the shoes, and get rid of counters in the meantime. Problem solved. Nevada should just change their gaming rules and disallow hand shuffles for blackjack.

1. CSM are expensive.
2. Casinos offer games that people will play. Not necessariy card counters, just players.
3. Non-counters like variety too (single deck, double deck, shoes, CSM, the whole spectrum of offerings.)

Quote: boymimbo

I don't have the problem with doing hand-held shoes with early shuffles if they suspect counting, or closing down the game until the counter leaves, or having a real shallow penetration, or changing the hand limits so that a person can't go more than 4x outside of their usual bet. To back off someone however, for doing an activity that invites a counter to play, I think, is unfair. So unfair that New Jersey disallows it.

1. Nevada is not New Jersey.
2. How would one react to Nevada casinos having bet ranges of $10-$25, and $25-$75 and $5,000-$10,000 with 50% penetration on everything. They'd be a lot of complaining by many, for the operational problems cause by a few counters.

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos are there for us to take THEIR money,
Casinos are the enemy, etc....

They aren't the enemy, they're my unwilling
partner. Their function is to pay me at my
edge, not theirs. Hey, thanks!

Quote: Paigowdan

"Casinos offer a multiutude of games for our recreation, and are one of many entertainment options."

For the suckers, this is true.

Quote: EvenBob

So now you're saying its the hold and not the
HE that pays for everything? Make up your
mind. The hold and HE aren't the same thing,
you know. You do know that, right?

Bob, Yes, I certainly do.
the hold is derived from HE to a great extent.
Rough performance translations between HE and hold are:
1% HE = about 10% hold on average (AC blackjack is an example)
2% HE = 20% Hold on average
2.5% HE = 25% hold on average (pai Gow is an example)
3%+ HE gives 30% + hold on average. (Carnival games)
But hold varies based on a lot of conditions.
The hold is percentage of buy-in the money kept by a casono on a particular table game.
In the End it is the drop and hold figures that count.

Quote: EvenBob

They aren't the enemy, they're my unwilling
partner. Their function is to pay me at my
edge, not theirs. Hey, thanks!

An unwilling partner?...have they held a gun to your head to play, or you to them?
If you not happy with casinos, don't go there.

I love EZ Pai Gow. Unfortunately, I will no longer play it. The inventor of the game called me an idiot and a cheater.

Next he will tell me that he doesn't need my action, and he'll be fine without it. And I'm sure he will be fine without my pitiful green chips, but let me just say that he's lucky that everyone who plays his game hasn't read this thread.

Quote: Paigowdan

An unwilling partner?...have they held a gun to your head to play, or you to them?
If you not happy with casinos, don't go there.

I force the casino to play at my edge, there's nothing
they can do about it. They have to pay me, they're
my unwilling partner. The casino is there for me to
TAKE money from. Hey, thanks again!

Quote: Switch

Actually, without going into details, Steve made the bulk of his Blackjack-playing income from using other advantage plays aside from counting. He did not use any form of cheating to get the edge, i.e. devices, marking etc., it was all using the mind.

Also, I can attest to his win as I was there for a large proportion of the time and witnessed the wins.

I'm waiting for Dan's response to THIS post. Come on, Dan... somebody says they have money, so ASK THEM TO SHOW IT!!! YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHO TO PICK ON.

For that matter, go after the Wiz too... seems like he supports most of the people on this forum. You've gone after EVERYBODY else who disagrees with you.

COME ON DAN!!! I NEED TO SEE THE RESPONSE TO THOSE TWO POSTS!!!!

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob, Yes, I certainly do.
the hold is derived from HE to a great extent.

From UNLV Casino Mathematics:

"Hold percentage is equivalent to win
percentage (HE) for slots but not table games."

The hold for table games is not the same as
for slots. Hold percentage is equal to win divided
by drop in table games. In NV, this figure is about 24%
for roulette. The drop and hold percentage are
affected by many things, but the bottom line
is, HE and hold in table games is not the same
thing.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. CSM are expensive.

Really?
More expensive than that 100 feet marble fountain they recently installed? :)
You don't really believe what you are saying here, do you?

Quote:

2. Casinos offer games that people will play. Not necessariy card counters, just players.
3. Non-counters like variety too (single deck, double deck, shoes, CSM, the whole spectrum of offerings.)

Why would they? You don't know, do you? You just think it's not because they want to think/pretend they can count ... but you can't think of any other reason ...

Quote:

1. Nevada is not New Jersey.

Everything has to happen somewhere for the first time. Other places usually follow shortly.

Quote:

2. How would one react to Nevada casinos having bet ranges of $10-$25, and $25-$75 and $5,000-$10,000 with 50% penetration on everything. They'd be a lot of complaining by many, for the operational problems cause by a few counters.

They only sensible reason to complain is that these changes would prevent counting (or using Martingale, but it is rather unethical/cheating of the casino to begin with to invite people to use a strategy that leads to greater losses).

"In the End it is the drop and hold figures that count. " Gee, if the drop is $600 a day on one table with a 30% hold and another game has a 60% hold and the drop is $125 a day. guess which table won't be there next week. You can't pay the bills with the hold, only the drop !!

I have seen 6 or 7 players backed off for counting in Colorado. All while the minimum bet and maximum bet allowed was $5.
Never underestimate the stupidity of some pit bosses.

Quote: buzzpaff

Never underestimate the stupidity of some pit bosses.

The sheer ignorance I've discovered in the pit about
the games they oversee used to really bother me. I've
gotten used to it over the years and now expect them
to know next to nothing. The only things they're sure
of is when the next break is, and where they parked
their car.

Quote: Tiltpoul

I'm waiting for Dan's response to THIS post. Come on, Dan... somebody says they have money, so ASK THEM TO SHOW IT!!! YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHO TO PICK ON.

My response: good for them.

Quote: tiltpoul

For that matter, go after the Wiz too... seems like he supports most of the people on this forum. You've gone after EVERYBODY else who disagrees with you.

Mike has a license to disagree with me. And yeah, we can disagree - - and do, so what? all without using handguns, believe it or not!
So No, I haven't killed anyone, really. I love you all.
I argue points on gaming and gambling, that's what we do.
That's the whole reason for us here, to hash it out like a jury room scene out of "12 Angry Men!"
We are all just one big, dysfunctional family! :) :) :)

Quote: tiltpoul

COME ON DAN!!! I NEED TO SEE THE RESPONSE TO THOSE TWO POSTS!!!!

Ha, I love it! I'll give my blessing just to confuse

Quote: Paigowdan

Ha, I love it! I'll give my blessing just to confuse

You're not really any different from most dealers
I've met over the years. You have a few facts and
a bunch of mostly wrong opinions. But hey, you're
a casino dealer, they didn't hire you for graduating
in the top third of your college class. Or for ever
going to school at all, for that matter.

Quote: EvenBob

From UNLV Casino Mathematics:

"Hold percentage is equivalent to win
percentage (HE) for slots but not table games."

Yes bob, I know that. I am not confusing "coin-in" for slots with table games table hold.
I view reports of table hold for EZ Pai Gow about twice a month, comparing it to other games, as part of my other job.

Quote: Evenbob

The hold for table games is not the same as
for slots. Hold percentage is equal to win divided
by drop in table games. In NV, this figure is about 24%
for roulette. The drop and hold percentage are
affected by many things, but the bottom line
is, HE and hold in table games is not the same
thing.

For table games, the hold is the percentage of buy-in money kept, as I previously described.
If a table drops $100,000 in buy-in money for a month, let's say, and keeps $25,000 of it, it's hold is 25%.

Quote: Paigowdan

My response: good for them.

Okay, I'm done with this one too... lol... you can't argue with a hypocrite. You are a self-admitted bitter dealer who has such disdain for humanity that your version of reality is so distorted that you won't criticize a fellow game inventor...

You are, if nothing else, entertaining. I see you as a Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck type who loves listening to his view points and only his viewpoints. If somebody agrees with you, great... if someone disagrees, you shout until you're blue in the face... when somebody is probably right against your wrong view point, you just stay quiet...

The Wiz and MrCasinoGames are right against your wrong viewpoint and you're staying quiet. You are too funny... a hypocrite, but funny.

Quote: buzzpaff

"In the End it is the drop and hold figures that count. " Gee, if the drop is $600 a day on one table with a 30% hold and another game has a 60% hold and the drop is $125 a day. guess which table won't be there next week. You can't pay the bills with the hold, only the drop !!

Yes, that is why hold is viewed in relation to its "drop," or buy-in amount for the same period.

I agree I just hate those one size fits all terms used by bean counters, like sales per square feet as the golden grail in retail.

OMG I just agreed with Dan. Josie get me the Tylenol, I must have a fever.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes bob, I know that..

But thats NOT what you said! You said the
players are just winning and losing each
others money and the casino makes all its
profit from the HE, or the vig. Thats what
a sports book does, makes its profit off the
vig and thats why they hardly ever make
a profit. Casinos don't operate that way
or they would be in the same boat as
the books are, and they aren't.

Quote: FrGamble

I am a baseball purist but I would never be foolish enough to ask people to play the game as it was intended. Let's just take the home run, before Babe Ruth it hardly existed and it was a different type of game. The sultan of swat changed everything and in this purist's perspective added a new element to the game that I love. Not everyone can hit a home run but to say it is not part of the game just because the original inventors didn't intend there to be such a thing is crazy. Again if you can do something well and it is technically a legal part of the game than to ask someone not to do it is like telling the Babe to bunt every time he is at bat or like Barry Bonds tell him to take a walk every time he gets up. What's the fun of that?

Ah, but if homers, instead of filling the stands and making the owners millions (like has happened) ended up costing the owners money, do you think homers would be viewed as "awesome"? I'd think the owners would put some sort of penalty on them, same as in some amateur leagues, to protect their assets. Homers helped the owner, counting hurts the owner, not exactly an apples to apples arguement.

In any case, my post was saying I see Dan's point of view. I understand where he is coming from and can somewhat agree with his stance. I did NOT say I shared the same view, in fact, I stated the opposite. To recap - according to the Face regardless of State Law, casino regulations or forum beliefs, counting is Legal. Counting is not cheating. Counting is part of "todays BJ". Counters can make money. Counters are about .65% of my professional concern. Counters are 0% of my personal concern. Most of them are good for the casino. The ones who are "bad" are rarely worth my time to pursue. If you can't count but want to at my place, have at it. If you can count and want to at my place, have at it. If you end up blowing all your money, thank you for the paycheck. If you end up emptying the float, thank you for the job security.

Hopefully that cleared it all up. What you quoted was my understanding of Dan's point of view. I can see how he believes counting is not part of the game and I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that counting was part of how the inventors intended it to be played. It simply was not. Counting has invaded the game of BJ and is now part of "todays BJ". I don't have a problem with that, it's all I've ever known.

Quote: Tiltpoul

The Wiz and MrCasinoGames are right against your wrong viewpoint and you're staying quiet. You are too funny... a hypocrite, but funny.

Dan reminds me of that character in the book Catch 22
who drives Yossarian crazy because he's never consistent.
He states opinions as facts and changes them around
all the time so Yossarian thinks he's losing his mind when
he talks to him. My favorite absurdity from Dan so far
is card counting is in the same category as molesting
a waitress. I should make it my sig line..

Since we seem to be quite hung up on casino written rules on this thread I would like to ask a simple question that maybe the casino employees can answer. Are the basic rules of BJ written down anywhere? ie If I take a hit and bust and tell the dealer I won't accept that card and would like another card instead can the casino produce a written rule saying that I am not allowed to do that? I know that there are countless rule books about BJ but does the casino keep one in the pit and have a written procedure that says they use a specific set of rules ie 'Hoyle'. If they don't can I go in with my book "BJ rules by kenarman" and claim that my refusing the card is okay? Just asking.

Quote: EvenBob

But thats NOT what you said! You said the
players are just winning and losing each
others money and the casino makes all its
profit from the HE, or the vig. Thats what
a sports book does, makes its profit off the
vig and thats why they hardly ever make
a profit. Casinos don't operate that way
or they would be in the same boat as
the books are, and they aren't.

Technically, - yes. I know, I know....If all the tables had a 100% hold, they make all the profit, and if all the tables had a negative hold, the casinos would go bankrupt, true.

But in a real-world give-and-take sense, an "as it works out" sense, the money is churned through the tables, some players winning, some losing, and the house edge providing a cut of the players' action.

Quote: EvenBob

So now you're saying its the hold and not the
HE that pays for everything? Make up your
mind. The hold and HE aren't the same thing,
you know. You do know that, right?

In context, hold is a dollar amount and it absolutely pays the bills.

Quote: kenarman

I know that there are countless rule books about BJ but does the casino keep one in the pit and have a written procedure that says they use a specific set of rules ie 'Hoyle'.

I just googled "do casinos have rule books" and came up with nothing.


Maybe in gaming regulations?

Quote: Paigowdan

An unwilling partner?...have they held a gun to your head to play, or you to them?
If you not happy with casinos, don't go there.

I force the casino to play at my edge, there's nothing
they can do about it. They have to pay me, they're
my unwilling partner. The casino is there for me to
TAKE money from. Hey, thanks again!

Quote: kenarman

Since we seem to be quite hung up on casino written rules on this thread I would like to ask a simple question that maybe the casino employees can answer. Are the basic rules of BJ written down anywhere? ie If I take a hit and bust and tell the dealer I won't accept that card and would like another card instead can the casino produce a written rule saying that I am not allowed to do that? I know that there are countless rule books about BJ but does the casino keep one in the pit and have a written procedure that says they use a specific set of rules ie 'Hoyle'. If they don't can I go in with my book "BJ rules by kenarman" and claim that my refusing the card is okay? Just asking.

I answered this already, as far as I was able. Not surprised you missed it, a lot's been going on in this thread.

In a word, no. "Rules" as in "how you play the game" (think underside of a board game box) are displayed on the layout. Insurance pays X, BJ pays Y, dealer hits/stands on 17, etc. "Rules" as in "things that are forbidden" are found in procedural manuals. Pinching, capping, past-posting, marking, crimping, shaving, etc. I don't righly know how the general public could obtain a copy, I know the casino does not give these things out. These things are usually "duh" as in anyone should know you can't do that, or for the truely ignorant, they will be pointed out to them by the dealer during the course of play.

If you were to ask the dealer for another card after a bust, or place a bet on red after red hits, or set the dice on boxcars at third base then slide them 8 inches to the third base wall, a dealer will rightly correct you. If you asked "show me the rules" I reckon you'd have a hard time getting someone to do that. Do these example rules exist? Yes, I have seen them, they're located in the table games dealer procedure manuals, Surveillance table games procedure manuals, casino management procedure manuals, State/Nation Compact, etc and so on. Getting a copy probably won't happen unless your "claim" makes it to court. It's kind of funny, if you think about it.

Quote: kenarman

Since we seem to be quite hung up on casino written rules on this thread I would like to ask a simple question that maybe the casino employees can answer. Are the basic rules of BJ written down anywhere? ie If I take a hit and bust and tell the dealer I won't accept that card and would like another card instead can the casino produce a written rule saying that I am not allowed to do that? I know that there are countless rule books about BJ but does the casino keep one in the pit and have a written procedure that says they use a specific set of rules ie 'Hoyle'. If they don't can I go in with my book "BJ rules by kenarman" and claim that my refusing the card is okay? Just asking.

In some jurisdictions, notably New Jersey, the rules of games are actually written down in the regulations. See NJCCC Regulations Chapter 47.

Quote: kenarman

Since we seem to be quite hung up on casino written rules on this thread I would like to ask a simple question that maybe the casino employees can answer. Are the basic rules of BJ written down anywhere?

They're written down on every layout:
Dealer draws until 17, hits soft 17,
and Insurance pays 2:1
Additional rules are posted on signs as needed:
"No mid-round Entry."
"split up for four hands"
"double on 10 or 11"
etc.
Rules changes occur so often they can't publish them everywhere and all the time.
thw wizardofodds.com has basic house rules for most LV area casinos.

If you take a hit and bust, and tell him you'd like another card he's laugh.
I think of the movie CASINO with Joe Pesci yelling at the dealer when given a bust card,
"No! Not DAT card....DAT card!"

Quote: Paigowdan

They're written down on every layout:
Dealer draws until 17, hits soft 17,
and Insurance pays 2:1
Additional rules are posted on signs as needed:
"No mid-round Entry."
"split up for four hands"
"double on 10 or 11"
etc.
Rules changes occur so often they can't publish them everywhere and all the time.
thw wizardofodds.com has basic house rules for most LV area casinos.

If you take a hit and bust, and tell him you'd like another card he's laugh.
I think of the movie CASINO with Joe Pesci yelling at the dealer when given a bust card,
"No! Not DAT card....DAT card!"

In short, there's an assumption that everyone is playing by the same rules. Your neighbourhood pit boss will let you know.

This assumption seems a little unfounded to me, and it's interesting that each casino can (and will) deal Blackjack differently. Ignoring "meta-game" rules such as card counting, buy ins and mechanics.

It actually makes me rather skeptical of how casino's operate, and I'd probably now avoid playing for big money on any game where there aren't clear rules available for both parties. Not that I have big money, but if I did... :)

Put it this way. I play a LOT of board games. The rules are not as simple as blackjack, but we sure have a rule book sitting around, and we get into plenty of well meaning arguments about how to play some games. And there's no money on the line. Badly written or hidden rules or just unknown house rules are horrible and ruin board games. One day, I know it'll ruin a game in the casino for me...

Quote: thecesspit

In short, there's an assumption that everyone is playing by the same rules. Your neighbourhood pit boss will let you know.
This assumption seems a little unfounded to me, and it's interesting that each casino can (and will) deal Blackjack differently. Ignoring "meta-game" rules such as card counting, buy ins and mechanics.

Each casino has slight variations, WTH.
Every casino seems to have a slightly different house way for Pai Gow Poker.
Some houses pay the field 3x when a 12 is rolled at dice, others 2x on the field.
Some offer Decues wild with an optional side bet on the dealers hand, others no.
Some offer Lucky Ladies as a Blackjack side bet.
Other Casinos offer another side bet.

Cesspit, if you had taken a look at the casino game rules at wizardofvegas.com you see 40 some odd side bets for blackjack, dozens of slight rule variations on the game, a few variants of the game (Superfun-21, spanish-21, blackjack switch, etc...)

Quote: thecesspit

It actually makes me rather skeptical of how casino's operate, and I'd probably now avoid playing for big money on any game where there aren't clear rules available for both parties. Not that I have big money, but if I did... :)

Then don't go to casinos until you feel comfortable.

Quote: thecesspit

Put it this way. I play a LOT of board games. The rules are not as simple as blackjack, but we sure have a rule book sitting around, and we get into plenty of well meaning arguments about how to play some games. And there's no money on the line. Badly written or hidden rules or just unknown house rules are horrible and ruin board games. One day, I know it'll ruin a game in the casino for me...

It may if you let it. One player was shocked - SHOCKED!!!!!! to discover that a hand side copy loses to the dealer or banker in Pai Gow poker. THE NERVE!! WTH. Had NO idea. If it ruind the game for her for life, WTH. If you have one bad hand, and it completely ruins a game for you, you might not be a very "robust" casino player.

Many thanks for reinforcing my point.

Cess - glad to do so, you're right about this.
I will admit there is also a ton of inane B.S. in the gaming industry on the casino operations side, too, (- Now, please, everybody, do NOT post:"Aha!! You see, Dan - you ADMIT it yourself! na-HAAA....!!!")
Some things actually need to be cleaned up on the casino operations end, some sort of standardization.
We spend a lot of time constantly re-training dealers and annoying players with petty changes because SOME new shift manager or casino managers does his own tinkering and tweaking of games, thinking it going to make a difference. Some of MY pet Peeves:
1. replacing one daffy side bet with another,
2. re-writing the pai gow house way,
3. allowing or dis-allowing "money-in-action" rules for multiple hands on pitch blackjack games, etc.
The Cannery group is VERY good at keeping things very consistent and reliable (well, for starters they standardized on EZ Pai Gow), but generally, there ought to be some more basic standardization instead of bastardization.
Some ideas:
1. All Six deck shoe and CSM games should have the same basic rules among a property group in the same "price" range (MGM, Harrahs, Stations, etc.) Why should it differ?
For example, all $5 to $50 6-deck/CSM tables: Dealer hits Soft-17, DAS, DOA, 75% penetration, split up to four hands, no surrender; and all should have either selected "Lucky Ladies," "Bust it!," "Push Your Luck," or "Bad Beat BJ" as the side bet. PICK ONE, G-DDAMN IT!" Same proven table spec at every property, just consistent. Saves player aggrevation and annoyance, saves dealer retraining, saves surveillance errors - what's the problem?

2. Crap tables: why does Fiesta HAVE the Fire bet, Sunset [Station] removed it, and Boulder station has the Replay bet? Some have the Field paying 3x on 12, some 2x, some have 5x odds, some 10x odds. So players complain: "We can use the same 'Boarding Pass' players comp card everywhere, but every crap game is different. What's the deal with THAT!" If Both dice fail to hit the BACK wall - automatic no call/no roll, whether winner, another number, or a seven out! CONSISTENT POLICY

3. Pai Gow House ways: Every property has its own. I think they're trying to standardize that. But sheesh, call Charles Mousseau, and let him show you Pai Gow House Ways math reprorts as to which one really is easiest, and works best, - and just use it! And LOSE THE DRAGON HAND! It's a waste of time and money. COPY OF HOUSE WAY MUST BE AVAILABLE IN THE "HOW-TO-PLAY" SHEET RACK FOR THE PLAYERS!

4. Open and Honest Card Counting Policy without lying about it: "IF YOU ARE BELIEVED TO BE RUNNING DOWN A DECK, MANAGEMENT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO FLAT-BET YOU, - OR ASK YOU TO GO TO THE CSM BLACKJACK TABLE WITHOUT APOLOGY. NO HARD FEELINGS, NO ARGUMENTS - JUST BUSINESS."

5. Having an open card-counters' table: Double-Deck, 60% penetration, $5-$25, Double on 10 or 11, Split up to two hands, DAS if 10/11. Count you ass off!

6. Alcohol policy: If a player is visibly drunk, cut him off! If he's more interested in freaking drinking, 86-him to the bar! Some of the most despicable and outrageous casino behavior IS alcohol-related!!

7. Three-card poker: PAY the ANTE bonus on a straight or better even if the player hand loses!

I'm gonna start a new post with this.

Quote: Paigowdan

. Alcohol policy: If a player is visibly drunk, cut him off! If he's more interested in freaking drinking, 86-him to the bar! Some of the most despicable and outrageous casino behavior IS alcohol-related!!

You live in a dream world. They get them drunk to pick their
pockets, and now you want to cut them off while they're
still playing? Get real. You think times have changed since Benny
Binion said "Until their last check to us bounces, our job isn't
finished." They haven't changed a whit. The casino has one job
and one job only, to wring every dollar possible out of every
customer. A casino is just a brick and mortar carnival, and they
have the same attitude of the old carnies. The customers are
chumps and marks and they deserve whatever happens to them.

Bob,
I live the real world.
And I jus' told y'all what really goes in the real casino pit.
1. Pit boss rules, and
2. you spend your money as you see fit.
I agree with some points about the casino operators being harsh.
Give you that.
Confessed to it, and Made a new thread that you, Bob, may wish to soil...

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob,
I live the real world.
And I jus' told y'all what really goes in the real casino pit.
1. Pit boss rules, and
2. you spend your money as you see fit..

And being drunk on free booze, you'll spend your
money as the casino see's fit, more often than not.
And I know what goes on in the pit, its the stupid
leading the ignorant. Do you think you work in
a brainiac think tank? Have you gone that far
over to the Dark Side?

Quote: Paigowdan

We spend a lot of time constantly re-training dealers and annoying players with petty changes because SOME new shift manager or casino managers does his own tinkering and tweaking of games, thinking it going to make a difference. Some of

You've hit on a thing that often annoys people in all types of work situations everywhere with new management. And sometimes with current management.

Changing things up to little or no effect, and worse yet, trying something very similar or even exactly the way it was done several years back, and then when it fails again, switching back to way you had it when they started, so it was an even bigger wasted effort than trying something totally new.

It is impossible to prove someone is counting so making it illegal would be pointless.

Quote: dm

It is impossible to prove someone is counting so making it illegal would be pointless.

It is impossible to prove someone is fired because of a racial bias ... yet it is illegal.

Quote: weaselman

It is impossible to prove someone is fired because of a racial bias ... yet it is illegal.

But very difficult to prove. Most complaints are settled out of court to save the legal defense fees.

Quote: dm

It is impossible to prove someone is counting so making it illegal would be pointless.

When you're backed off or banned, they never
ever EVER tell you why they're doing it. When
they read you the trespass law, they never tell
you why. How could they, its ridiculous. 'We're
banning you because you brought your brain
into the casino. We only want drooling morons,
please leave."

I'm catching up on this thread, mostly to see if anybody produced a law stating that card counting is illegal in Nevada to claim the $1,000. Dan, I think if you can't produce anything then maybe you should consider admitting you were wrong. We all know casinos don't like card counters, but that doesn't make it illegal.

About drinking, I've seen supervisors cut off players a few times. I've met many casino managers and they don't sit around thinking about how to swindle a few more dollars out of the players. Any half-way intelligent casino manager wants his players to leave happy. Yes, with less money. You can fleece a sheep many times, but can slaughter it only once. That quote by Benny was very old school.

About rules, I have been saying for years that casinos should have to produce their game rules in writing if requested. When a new game runs out of rule cards it can get comical. The dealer could be dealing a game he/she barely understands, the supervisor may not be much better, and there are no rules anywhere to be found. Once at Circus Circus I was playing a single-deck blackjack game with no rule stated what blackjacks pay. This was around 2002, when 6-5 was not as common. When I was paid $30 on a $25 bet I had to argue all the way to shift manager to get my additional $7.50.

" Dan, I think if you can't produce anything then maybe you should consider admitting you were wrong. "

I believe that if Eddie Haskell had been a real person, not a fictional character in Leave It To Beaver, when he grew up his name would be DAN LUBIN.

Quote: Wizard

I've met many casino managers and they don't sit around thinking about how to swindle a few more dollars out of the players.

They don't have to, all the heavy lifting was done
for them decades ago. Everything's in place, all
they have to do is come in every day. 'Procedure'
was decided on long ago, now its all about keeping
up on the latest in distraction technique. What was
that last big casino book selling for, $200? Something
like that.