Is Counting Cheating?

Is counting cards in blackjack cheating the House?

Silly question. Of course not !

Nor is there anything despicable about it at all, claims to the contrary notwithstanding in my book. On the other hand, the casino is going to be allowed to prohibit it when it is spotted, it would seem.

IMO a Casino should not offer a game that is countable, rather than trying to collar those who do count.

I have no problem with a house backing off any player they wish to, it is there game. I do have a problem with someone saying it's against the rules to memorize the cards seen so far, WITHOUT telling me where to find that rule. if it was really a rule, all black jack games would be CSM.

Hold on ! Dan Lubin is going to post that rule here. Right DAN ?

Suppose a casino knows a player is capable of counting; Can they stop him from playing when he is not counting?

Cheating in a casino by a player is defined (by me, though I know I did not make this up) as "changing the elements of the game". For example, switching in loaded dice, marking cards. What element of the game is altered by keeping track of which cards have been played?

Quote: matilda

Suppose a casino knows a player is capable of counting; Can they stop him from playing when he is not counting?

Sure. A casino can take action from whoever they so decide to. I don't have a problem with that.

HELLO!

1. Blackjack Counting is indeed considered cheating by "Casino house rules" here in the state of Nevada by virually every casino in the state. You will be flat-betted, asked to play another game, or expelled by the casino if repeatedly caught. Without apology. You will NOT be back-roomed by a goon squad of killers that many board members claim, you will be given a Buffett comp for you time, and asked to play slot machines, dice, Roulette, or Pai Gow Poker. Do it again, you will be asked to leave. Do it a third time, you will go into a "book" (not the "black book", Got that?)
2. It is NOT considered "illegal cheating" by law enforcement agancies in any state of the U.S. This means you won't go to jail. So what! You just can't get away with it. Try to enter a casino a 4th time, you might be arrested for tresspassing, and pay a fine, where you will be told to "get a job and a freaking life."
3. Nobody seems to make ANY serious money from card counting anymore. Nobody. It was listed as "One of the Dead Old School dead-end Careers" in some magazine. If ANYBODY says "Oh! I was a card counter" he will also say "but I kept my day-time gig [read: job]...because it didn't work out. No shit.
4. Blackjack counting playing as a career is simply retarded. I WELCOME YOU TO TRY! It's a boring game, you can't win even with counting; you will be giving yourself the punishment you deserve by trying.
5. The MIT Blackjack team members are now all broke in their 40's (serves them right), had been arrested on false documents charges trying to pull off their card-counting careers, and now all of these idiots think they'd better better off in life if they had finished their engineering degrees and medical degrees to have productive careers with no police records. IF they had gone to dealer's schools, they all probably would have been casino managers by now, with the same status wealth and status of doctors or lawyers but without $200,000 in students loans to pay off. In hindsight, they were just fucking idiots. Waste of minds that could have done something.
6. NOBODY at this board makes a career from Blackjack card counting. Nobody. Stanford Wong and Ian Anderson can't do it anymore, and they have sold oout their books. End of line. Been there, done that , it is dead at this point. If Stanford Wong or Ian Anderson had used their time to develop a new BJ game, they'd be in a different position. The NEW school in gaming doesn't even know from them!
7. Card counting is DEAD. As a career, as a pasttime, or as anything. Floormen making $140 a day gets security to detain you, saying: "Sadly - just another fucking idiot for security and surveillance to deal with and waste our time with...." This is the modern view of card counters by the gaming industry."
8. The amount of intellectual effort wasted on this card-counting crap is just ridiculous, and for what? Design a new game, and get 50 or so out.

CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE.

So, verbatim, whats that house rule that card-counting breaks again? Did I miss it?

"1. Blackjack Counting is indeed considered cheating by "Casino house rules" here in the state of Nevada by virually every casino in the state. "

I don't argue with the rest of your post. I'm not saying I'll make money counting. I'm not there to make millions from it.

I only argue "what rules written where state the above?". That's it.

Show us the rule.

Cess -
I love ya, been on this board with you for quite a while - but if you walk into a casino, they won't show you the rules on the argument that card counting is a no-no. they'll just show you another game to play, or the door, if caught. No apologies.
It is a known malfeasance in a casino, it doesn't work any longer in a casino, and it just wastes everyone's time. They don't have to show anyone squat. As in the floorman saying: "It's over - stop wasting our time. Flat bet, or play another game - or leave, or you will be asked to leave."
It's a waste of time at the casino.
It is a waste of time at this board.
I posted earlier to end this waste of time:

CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE

Quote: thecesspit

Sure. A casino can take action from whoever they so decide to. I don't have a problem with that.

So its ok for a casino to not take action for any reason--say being Black or Jewish or female or fat etc --you get the picture.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. Blackjack Counting is indeed considered cheating by "Casino house rules" here in the state of Nevada by virually every casino in the state. You will be flat-betted, asked to play another game, or expelled by the casino if repeatedly caught. Without apology. You will NOT be back-roomed by a goon squad of killers that many board members claim, you will be given a Buffett comp for you time, and asked to play slot machines, dice, Roulette, or Pai Gow Poker. Do it again, you will be asked to leave. Do it a third time, you will go into a "book" (not the "black book", Got that?)
2. It is NOT considered "illegal cheating" by law enforcement agancies in any state of the U.S.

Casinos don't like card counters, and they can indeed trespass you, but counting is not cheating. The NRS defines cheating very explicitly: one must actively *alter* the probabilities, not merely detect them.

The NRS also has a separate crime for the use of a device to detect those probabilities. In other words, using a card counting computer is illegal, but using your brain is not. And in neither case -- with or without a computer -- does card counting fall under the definition of "cheating".

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-465.html

What about a fat black jewish female? The captain planet of the unbannables.

Quote: matilda

Suppose a casino knows a player is capable of counting; Can they stop him from playing when he is not counting?

no, if he is not counting, unless he is in the surveillance "book" of problem players.

Quote: matilda

So its ok for a casino to not take action for any reason--say being Black or Jewish or female or fat etc --you get the picture.

Matilda -
Don't get racial or ridiculous.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

So, verbatim, whats that house rule that card-counting breaks again? Did I miss it?

Ditto- Dan- you are beginning to sound like Jerry Logan... unable to answer a simple question... It's quite sad, actually...

Quote: Paigowdan

YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT

So anyone in the gaming industry that tries to prevent it is just sweating the money?

I answer questions just fine, quite thoroughly and fully in fact, without name-calling or baiting, unlike JL.
I may say some things that you disagree with.

It happens at a forum.

If you have a problem with my posts, then flag my posts for Mike Shackleford and Michael Bluejay to see, and if they say I'm gone, I Will Leave.

Lord knows I wanted to flag your posts, but refrained, and you're still around.
I can live with that.

Quote: kp

So anyone in the gaming industry that tries to prevent it is just sweating the money?

I somewhat agree with Dan on this one. I wouldn't go so far to say "No one can ever make anything, ever", but in the grand scheme of things, counting is barely on my radar. If someone wins $200,000 off his $5,000 buy in and the floor calls me for a review, that's appropriate. That's not sweating, that's procedure and what we get paid for. When the floor calls every time someone "plays funny" or "wins", yeah, that's sweating. I hate that.

Dan definitely seems extremely aggressive and angry over the whole thing, I suspect someone who completely failed at an attempt to count cards, and doesn't believe it works due to his personal failure. That aside, if this thread was created in purpose to troll Paigowdan, job well done, he took that one hook, line, and sinker.

I realize variance is a bitch, but knowing how to hi/lo count and loading up on a positive shoe, has netted me a walkaway profit of 21.6k, and 16.1k in solo sessions this year without a loss since January (1.3k). Not always going to happen that way, but before I'd learned to at least know when to push my bet, there was no chance that kind of win could happen.

In time that will even out, and no I'm not making a living off it, but it's been a much more enjoyable game just knowing where I stand mathematically. With a fair rules game (yes they exist still - just less and less) I'd dispute the math holds up, and then it comes down to dealer penetration, which of course can butcher your shot of ever getting the advantage for long.

Nonetheless, knowing when things align correctly is a nice feeling. And I'd think you would be hard-pressed to call it happenstance or coincidence. Blindly and belligerently denying it, is a bit silly. And really calling it cheating that someone is not to dimwitted to cancel out neutral pairs and add one or two at a time in their head, can't really be grounds for treating someone like an out-and-out degenerate.

If the casino does not want me to count, why don't they just post the rule to that effect? Why don't they install a CSM?
Why don't the force everybody to flat bet? Why not set table max to 3x table min? Why not?

I think, they simply want to have it both ways. Most people, who think they can count, cannot. They will make mistakes, and end up losing (much) more than they would if counting was impossible.

As long as casino feels it is ok to use card counting to maximize their profits, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with players using it to maximize theirs. It is only fair.

Dan, I know a guy, who does "counting" kinda subconsciously, kinda at the same level you would notice that "lots of aces are out", only with a lot higher precision. He cannot tell you exactly what the true count is at any given moment, he just knows when to raise his bet, and when to sit out. Would you call that unethical too? Does he have to literally ignore the information he has when playing in order to have good moral character in your book?

Weasel has it in that last paragraph, it becomes nearly subconscious at some point, where you just know whether the betting is good or isn't. And to say well this guy knows when to reduce or increase his bet, kick him out sounds not only a bit silly but really means you should only allow flat betting. Thing is I haven't been anywhere that does that. However, tables with worse rules,and a higher house edge do keep cropping up.

Quote: APDave

Dan definitely seems extremely aggressive and angry over the whole thing, I suspect someone who completely failed at an attempt to count cards, and doesn't believe it works due to his personal failure. That aside, if this thread was created in purpose to troll Paigowdan, job well done, he took that one hook, line, and sinker.

I realize variance is a bitch, but knowing how to hi/lo count and loading up on a positive shoe, has netted me a walkaway profit of 21.6k, and 16.1k in solo sessions this year without a loss since January (1.3k). Not always going to happen that way, but before I'd learned to at least know when to push my bet, there was no chance that kind of win could happen.

In time that will even out, and no I'm not making a living off it, but it's been a much more enjoyable game just knowing where I stand mathematically. With a fair rules game (yes they exist still - just less and less) I'd dispute the math holds up, and then it comes down to dealer penetration, which of course can butcher your shot of ever getting the advantage for long.

Nonetheless, knowing when things align correctly is a nice feeling. And I'd think you would be hard-pressed to call it happenstance or coincidence. Blindly and belligerently denying it, is a bit silly. And really calling it cheating that someone is not to dimwitted to cancel out neutral pairs and add one or two at a time in their head, can't really be grounds for treating someone like an out-and-out degenerate.

No, I am not "agressive and angry over the whole thing" as a failed card counter. Was never a failed card counter, any soprt of coard counter, as I spent my gaming career as a Poker expert, dice expert, and Pai Gow expert and game designer who happens to work at a local Las Vegas casino in Henderson, NV.

Instead (and if you had read my posts), I am a long time casino pit worker/casino dealer AND GAME DESIGNER who has to take time out of his work day in the casino pit while trying to run games and get as many hands out as possible, - but we have to STOP casino pit operations because some "wanna-be" card-counter gets into a shouting match with a floor supervisor, thinking he's going to make $5,000 on his $200 buy-in by counting cards, and then getrs caught.

THEN we have a shouting match incident between him and the pit boss with security guards present because he's yelling - in front of a bunch of local customers out for a good time playing cards and rolling dice at our casino, with him screaming: "But I have a FUCKING LEGAL RIGHT to count cards SO WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME TO LEAVE" -
meanwhile, our local neighborhood players who supply our casino's business are leaving because of this moron is causing a scene, saying "I'm leaving - I don't need these scenes when I am out on the town with my wife, this place is less classy than I thought !!"

And it costs us dealers and floormen tips and salary, as we are sent home EARLY when business drops off - not to mention how the tips drop off for us dealers after a scene, (which ain't much to begin with if you've also been reading this board). So this college kid gets arrested for public distirbance, and not because card-counting is legal, but because creating a public disturbance is illegal, and he can't understand it.

I've been in the gaming business for years - in the casino pit - and I've never met anyone who made a freaking career out of blackjack aside from dealers (who also are required to deal other games), and a casino thief who stole $80,000 while being a blackjack dealer, but started a travel agency that made him a millionare from it.

In ALL of my years working in the casino pit - I have NEVER seen ANYONE retire from card counting, but frequently see how the "counting fantasy" just gums up the casino pit - as well as gamblers forums - with inanity, just stupiduty.

I'm sure you can also see how published card-counting strategies single-handedly resurrected blackjack and made the casinos huge profits by simply giving the public the idea that a casino game was beatable. The idea of card-counting has made the casinos much more money than not. So while some counter goes ape and costs you tips, you may not have had your current job at all if it wasn't for card-counting being made public.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

So, verbatim, whats that house rule that card-counting breaks again? Did I miss it?

It's too bad that we couldn't hear about these "house rules" from someone other than a lower level casino employee who speaks for the entire state of Nevada. I'd like to hear one top casino executive say that card counting is cheating or explain the mysterious "house rules."

Card counters, take every dollar you can from the casinos and don't forget to tip the dealers who love us so much.

Some card-counter who buys-in with 200$ is not a card counter but a moron. The problem is, if he was caught he was bad, and if he made a scene and didn't high-tail it, he was worse. The percentage of people that think they can, and those that know they can are disproportionate.

I would also raise an argument that on a casino floor over time you've witnessed many drunk or angry people make a scene who weren't "card-counters" but just really shitty and annoying characters. In fact the morons in Vegas making scenes far outnumber the very few stories you have of angry "card-counters" you fingered.

And yes the money you make off people failing at card-counting, is very good, because their losses are acceptable losses, that are just part of bad variance that will regress to the mean any day now. A run of the mill gambler doesn't think any of these things about variance and means, and will cut his losses or even see them as unacceptable.

Additionally, I'd maintain that this thread did seem to touch a nerve with you pretty solidly.

Stop piling up on Dan.

So he's agressive in defense of his principle? That's to be admired, not condemned. I happen to think he's wrong about it most of the time, but I can, and I do, admire and appreciate his integrity. If he's also zealous in defense of his industry, one can admire his loyalty. He is defending what's common practice among reputable casinos, not nefarious tactics of fly-by-night operators.

Quote: Paigowdan

CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT -

THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.

If its so dead, why does the casino bother with
it at all? If nobody can make a 'dime', why are
they so worried. If its so dead, why are there
so many card counting forums still on the net?
I just looked at half a dozen, they all had multiple
posts from today, one of them had 23 people
currently viewing a topic. As a casino employee,
its sounds like you've been given talking points,
because card counting is anything but dead.

Quote: Paigowdan

Cess -
I love ya, been on this board with you for quite a while - but if you walk into a casino, they won't show you the rules on the argument that card counting is a no-no. they'll just show you another game to play, or the door, if caught. No apologies.
It is a known malfeasance in a casino, it doesn't work any longer in a casino, and it just wastes everyone's time. They don't have to show anyone squat. As in the floorman saying: "It's over - stop wasting our time. Flat bet, or play another game - or leave, or you will be asked to leave."

Hmmm, this worries me that a casino can have rules for its games that it will refuse to show its players.

As I said, I don't have a problem with a casino backing off anyone. It's their house, and if they continually do stupid stuff like backing off fat, black, lesbian amputees, they'll probably have a law suit against them (hence I think it's a daft argument). I don't think I have any right to play any game offered by a private entity.

I do think, if that game is offered, to have a common set of rules between both parties which states how the game is played. If casinos can not or will not give me the opportunity to see those rules (whether they are card counting rules, or the general rules of the game), that seems VERY odd to me. Doesn't it to you, that some rules will be common knowledge, and some will be hidden by the casino with zero transparency?I

That's my issue. Not really whether card counting is positive, negative or inbetween. I think it's a nonsense to be angry that people can take prior events into account in one game and that's fine (roulette) but in another we have to be zombies and not recall what just happened.

I Ace-Five count and KO count at times for challenge of it. I've never seen it help me, but I don't play enough or high enough for it to matter more than reducing my edge a few cents per session.

LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT

... nah, no money in it for me. I'll design board games and sell them instead.

Quote: weaselman

If the casino does not want me to count, why don't they just post the rule to that effect? Why don't they install a CSM?
Why don't the force everybody to flat bet? Why not set table max to 3x table min? Why not?

They Do! Have you been reading this board??
People get flat betted all the time, and complain about it here.
CSM machines are all over the place, - and becoming more popular to end this counting B.S. - not that it works. (Well, it does in the movies) We have countless THREADS here at this board, usually along the nature of "How the hell can I count a CSM machine, too?" just recently.

Quote: weaselman

I think, they simply want to have it both ways. Most people, who think they can count, cannot. They will make mistakes, and end up losing (much) more than they would if counting was impossible.

No they don't. Casinos DO play by the rules, and expect players to do so also, and counting is a known "malfeasance" rule violation, a no-go, and if you claim ignorance of that to say "oh! I didn't know that!" then you are lying.

Quote: weaselman

As long as casino feels it is ok to use card counting to maximize their profits, I see nothing wrong whatsoever with players using it to maximize theirs. It is only fair.

What??!! Casinos have never counted cards...are you going to claim that when casinos shuffle shoe decks between deals in front of customers, and then ask a customer to cut the cards - knowing FULL WELL that the customer could be a shuffle tracker - nd we STILL do this as a good faith gesture?

Quote: weaselman

Dan, I know a guy, who does "counting" kinda subconsciously, kinda at the same level you would notice that "lots of aces are out", only with a lot higher precision. He cannot tell you exactly what the true count is at any given moment, he just knows when to raise his bet, and when to sit out. Would you call that unethical too? Does he have to literally ignore the information he has when playing in order to have good moral character in your book?

Ya know, I've answer THAT question a thousand times.
No - he does not. If the FLOOR supervision has no problem than neither do I, if his peanut-sized conscience does not either.

You klow, I really don't have problems with card counters, except under TWO circumstances:
1. When they tell me that they are morally in the right - which is never the case in live casino action, and;
2. If the bitch and moan and cause a scene that causes a disruption when good casino workers and their good players are just trying to have a good night playing.

Actually, I AM THANKFUL FOR CARD-COUNTING:
1. Because it gives such a slight edge to APs, we casino workers and casino operators reap the benefits of "wanna-bee" card-counter losers via their loses; however, this is canclled by the expense and disruption they cause us in the operations end (see above);
2. It gives wanna-be game designers who design blackjack side bets hope, thereby giving the gaming industry lawyers and mathematician a steady stream of income on that pipe dream.
3. It makes it EASY to enter the field of casino dealing, where new dealers can slowly learn Three-card Poker, Roulette, Pai Gow Poker, and craps while on the job. If new dealers had to report to a casino's new job straight on to a jammed up Pai Gow or Dice game, we'd be short a lot of casino dealers right off the bat, and be paying them twice what we currently do. New Blackjack Casino dealers have about 9 months to learn Roulette, Poker side games, and Pai Gow, with a steady stream of new blackjack dealers from multitudes of dealers school being a supply source that keeps casino expenses down by keeping the available hiring pool up.
4. But card-counters cause headaches for casino pits, and give ridiculously false hopes to gamblers trying to beat the system. The ONLY way to beat the gambling system is to AUTHENTICALLY treat it for what it is: an entertaionment outlet, never to become a personal ATM.

Again I should state:
CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE

I think at this point Dan qualifies as a casino zealot. The ability to blindly defend the noble casinos with such ardor is impressive though, and I can respect it for it's oddity.

The fact is that counting isn't "dead", it's a nice mathematical advantage that turns a hobby into not a complete fail money sink.

*Again my point stands that people being drunk morons happen in all facets of casino gamblers, denizens, and Vegas society, to say these disturbances are confined to wannabe card counters is unbelievable at best.

No one is "piling on" Dan, he's been replying enough to each post not be qualified as piled on.

Quote: APDave

I think at this point Dan qualifies as a casino zealot. The ability to blindly defend the noble casinos with such ardor is impressive though, and I can respect it for it's oddity.

What we're seeing in his posts is the tip of the
iceberg on how casinos feel about people who
have the audacity to try and beat them at their
own game. People forget that they really did
used to beat the living crap out of card counters
sometimes. And worse. Now all they have is words
to war with, so they have to convince us that its
cheating, in the hope we'll feel guilty and leave
them alone. Fat chance..

The Wizard of Odds says this about the legalities of card counting:

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/count/

"Legally speaking, the player may play blackjack any way he wants without cheating or using a computer, and the casinos may do anything from making conditions unfavorable to barring, in an effort to stop anyone who they deem has an advantage over the game. Much of the challenge of card counting is avoiding suspicion that you are anything but a normal non-counting player. The most obvious indication that somebody is counting is that they make a substantial increase in bet size after a lot of small cards leave the table. Although the greater the factor by which you can increase your bet the greater your odds of winning, more than doubling your last bet is a fast way to arouse "heat" from the dealer and pit boss. Usually when casinos employees realize you are counting, they will either shuffle the cards whenever you increase your bet, essentially removing any advantage, or ask you to leave."

So he seems to say what most members are saying--it isn't "against the rules" specifically or generally BUT, since it is not in the casino's best interest, the can choose to treat you in a way that causes you leave their establishment.

The casinos aren't going to give back the millions of dollars that they have won from those who fail at counting...if it was truly an "illegal" pursuit, they should not have accepted bets from any suspected counter. What they seem to do is take their bets and back them off if they get ahead...at least based on what counters have shared here.

Quote: thecesspit

Hmmm, this worries me that a casino can have rules for its games that it will refuse to show its players.

Cesspit,
We don't refuse, but we cannot have the entire Oxford Dictionary of Common Law and three copies of the Consitustion ready to display on many matters that concern
If you rode a public transit bus or subway, and for some reason - and out of the blue - you stabbed the passenger NEXT TO YOU in the brain with a ice-pick, would you say to the arresting officer:

"You cannot arrest me for this! I DEMAND that you SHOW me the "Transit Police house rules for behavior" - on a public transport system!"
Followed by:
Aha! So - You cannot! [show the printed rules!] So - I got you now! - You SEE! .... I am INNOCENT!!!

No, you're not innocent. But this is the false argument that many players make. If you've gone through the trouble to learn card counting, then you also

But you are right. In gaming, we cannot assume that our players have indeed had any sort of home training, and the "Show me the house rules or let me go" is something that we frequently hear.
About two years ago, we hired a beautiful new cocktail waitress of Thai decent. "Alex." She had one hell of a chip rack, so to speak, a knock out. A real cutie, and a great waitress who could handle a large floor area. Okay.

So one day, she's the pit waitress when I'm dealing Pai Gow Poker. (Actually, that Excellent game, EZ Pai Gow poker...) She comes and delivers a tray of drinks to the pit area, and drops off drinks at my Pai gow table. Everyone gives her a $1 white chip, but one guy reaches into her BRA to give her the tip - with his hand on her boob! WTF! She freezes up, and shit I frooze, and the floorman is yelling "HEY! ASSHOLE! WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING??!! (He didn't freeze).

This male player kind of woke up, and saw himself with his hand in her bra and on her breat - in a casino, and pulled it out. Like nothing was wrong at all. (Kind of like casino cheats and card counters, and I say this describing them as separate catagories.) And the cocktail waitres, she did not drop her tray. Nor did she hit him with it. She just froze. In fact, I am ashamed of myself, because I just froze. And every player at the table also just froze. I guess this is why so many people die in house fires, even in a single-story ranch-style home, because people just lock up and freeze up when they are shocked and paniced.)

So the floorman (Bill) is there, and a security guard is behind the table (Rodney), and the floorman is leaning deep into the table, staring at the male player like he was from the planet Mars. And he says, "What the fuck do you think you were doing, asshole?" (This is a direct quote, that the sentence he said. just that.)

So the player snaps to, and says, "You listen - Show me where...where...where it is written...written..."
And Bill the floorman says "Written WHAT, asshole, our procedure manuals?? That you can do whatever the fuck you want at a casino because you are not at a fucking Mass??" Metro Police will write this shit up for your fucking lawyer to see..." (Wow...Talk about a floorman, he doesn't miss a beat! Love him!)

Anyway, guy leaves the table wih security escort saying "Jesus, I didn't know what happened, I didn't know what got into me..." I resume the game seeing HALF the table take-and-paid, taking a miunute to continue on where I left off. No charges or incident resulted, and the cocktail waitress let it slide (she told me on a break and as a friend, "Next time there will BE a SCENE...")

and the floorman is like "Jesus, Danny, what the fuck, do I have to tell you about some of these shit-bag, no good, lying, cheating, good-for-nothing, sack-of-stinking shit dirt-bag gamblers - who should be beaten to death in a dark alleyway...with metal pipes...yes, with lead pipes...like the Vitagliano murders....or something like that...anyway, just forget about it...go tap in on stick (craps) after your break, because you're on dice after this break...clock out at 3AM...you've been in this business long enough, you've seen shit like this...just go call some dice and clock out...."

...too often...

But what caught me was the male player, when confronted with his hand on a cocktail waitresses breast, he said "Where is it WRITTEN WHERE...."
1. I can't cheat.
2. I can't molest a cocktail waitress.
3. I can't count cards ...
4. I can't do xxx...to...I can't do xxx #11,946
Huh?
Since when do we need to show gamblers the Stone Tablets of The Ten Commandments to justify something like a slot cheat "Where is it wriiten in the Bible or your own procedure manuals that I cannot insert a bent coat hanger into a slot machine to make it pay out....."

In the face of this gambling player insanity, - do you see WHY I defend my casino employer at work - or on this board?

I'm one of the few dealers/floormen/game designers on this board,

because I'm just asking for more punishment.

For defending the gaming industry, I am called a zealot.

Quote: Paigowdan

So the player snaps to, and says, "You listen - Show me where...where...where it is written...written..."
And Bill the floorman says "Written WHAT, asshole, our procedure manuals?? That you can do whatever the fuck you want at a casino because you are not at a fucking Mass??" Metro Police will write this shit up for your fucking lawyer to see..." (Wow...Talk about a floorman, he doesn't miss a beat! Love him!)

Anyway, guy leaves the table wih security escort saying "Jesus, I didn't know what happened, I didn't know what got into me..." I resume the game seeing HALF the table take-and-paid, taking a miunute to continue on where I left off. No charges or incident resulted, and the cocktail waitress let it slide (she told me on a break and as a friend, "Next time there will BE a SCENE.

Sexual assault is not the same as the rules of a card game. It is a criminal act. Complete rules of any game should be provided to the players upon request. if counting is against the rules, they should state that fact.

Totally different situations...

Sorry Dan, but you STILL miss my point.

There's laws against sexual molestation, laws against assault and laws against theft.

I'm talking about the rules of the game of blackjack. You said card counting is against the house rules, but there doesn't seem to be a single rule you can state that it is against.

Lets not go for the hyperbole, or the other case or the metaphor. I play a game of a blackjack against you. Where does it state that I may not recall what cards have already been taken from the deck.

That's all I ask for. Not whether I can grab a girls breast, or steal chips from the table, or assault someone on the train.

If there is a -state- law against it, fine.

If there is a rule next to "can not re hit split aces", also fine.

That's it. Not behaviour that the common man would see as indecent. Lets not talk about them here, I'm sure there's hundreds of them, and I'm genuinely interested in them as stories elsewhere.

I am purely stating that there HAS TO BE a common rule set for any game. Regardless of the temerity of some players of that game to ignore the law, the general rules of polite behaviour or what ever else.

I'm interested in the rules of the game.

I also think it depends on what the card counter is aiming to get out of things. I tend to agree with Dan, especially in Nevada, where they can ban/trespass you, card counting is not worth the effort, except for maybe the 'glory' of saying you were able to beat the house (even if in your own mind). However, I think that card counting could still be useful, as in knowing when to leave an unfavorable shoe, or only ramping up your bets enough to break even in the long run (if possible). People forget that card counting doesn't mean you're automatically going to win, it just means that the odds are in your favor. Add in the higher bets and higher volatility, and I think most people bust out because they don't have enough money to cover what they really need to survive the variance roller coaster.

-B

I suspect card counting probably doesn't even make it in your favour, just less in the house's favour, in the wide range of cases.

While I don't agree with Dan that counting is cheating, I do see his point that every aspect of how a game is run does not need to be written on a billboard at the door.

Take dice setters in Craps for example. The "house rule" is that the dice must be handled with only one hand, cannot be taken away from the table, cannot be tapped on the surface of the table, and should be picked up and thrown. However, there are many cases where folks take all day to fiddle with the dice, practice throws, and set... I understand when warnings are given and players barred, even though the acceptable procedures are not specifically written down.

Other examples would be players switching cards. We all know that that is cheating, but is it actually written someplace? Does it need to be. I can agree with Dan on this point.

However, on the subject of counting, I cannot condone it. The player is taking advantage of available information and their intellect, the same way a poker player in a stud game would. I say more power to them.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Other examples would be players switching cards. We all know that that is cheating, ... ... ...

Not necessarily :-)

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Quote: Switch

Not necessarily :-)

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Hehe, thanks for the reminder Switch. Let me edit: We all know that it is cheating (unless incorporated into the rules of the game)...

If I go to a Stations Casino and play a machine that says with optimal play this machine pays over 100% am I cheating? Did they take all those machines out?

The only way this is possible is using the brain. (Okay, also by a long streak of random chances in your favor.)

Quote: thecesspit

I suspect card counting probably doesn't even make it in your favour, just less in the house's favour, in the wide range of cases.

There are more profitable ways, other than counting, that can be exploited depending on the casino, shuffle etc. None of these methods use devices.

The players who make good money tend not to post their methods on open message boards.

Sigh...

Card counting isn't cheating. You are gambling, however, in a private establishment governed by Nevada gaming, where they have the right to ask you to stop playing, leave, or bar you if they suspect you of counting cards. I don't think this is fair.

Casinos offer single deck, double deck, and other shoe-dealt games in order to entice the counter, plain and simple, and to make the player believe that the shoe dealt games are better. The lower end casinos offer the single deck games with a lower HA for marketing purposes and to get people in the door. It is widely believed that hand-shuffles are better than the shoe shufflers which are better than the CSMs. Inotherwords, without wanna-be counters, blackjack might be dead. The wanna-bes come in with their $200, sit down at a game, and try to count, and usually fail, because they get distracted or don't have the bankroll to succeed. These people are some of the ones who keep blackjack alive.

If casino personnel were really worried about counters, all machines will be CSMs and the house advantage would be altered by rule changes to bring the game in and out of favor. That's what I would like Nevada to enforce. Get rid of hand-dealt games. Make counting impossible.

But I say that the casino can't have it both ways. The casino shouldn't have a game that invites counters and then back off people from counting. I think it's fair to dissuade counters by early shuffles and changing the upper limit on wagers to limit a counter's win.

On a related note, is looking at other player's cards in Pai Gow and altering your play a form of cheating? For example, if you know all of the ACES are out, and you're sitting on 9977KQT, the normal play is to split the pairs, but knowing all ACES are in play, you play KQ instead?

Quote: boymimbo

On a related note, is looking at other player's cards in Pai Gow and altering your play a form of cheating? For example, if you know all of the ACES are out, and you're sitting on 9977KQT, the normal play is to split the pairs, but knowing all ACES are in play, you play KQ instead?

I would say yes, if hands are dealt down, and sharing information is not allowed. I know for a fact that shared information can void a jackpot hand at my local joint.

Quote: thecesspit

Sorry Dan, but you STILL miss my point.

Trust me, I didn't miss it. I work in a casino 40 hours a week every week for years. I know how things work in this town. This is a qualification that few have at this board.

Quote: thecesspit

There's laws against sexual molestation, laws against assault and laws against theft.

Yes, there are.

Quote: thecesspit

I'm talking about the rules of the game of blackjack. You said card counting is against the house rules, but there doesn't seem to be a single rule you can state that it is against.

Then what do you say to a pit boss who backs you off because of card counting? "Oh! I've never backed off at a real casino before, I just gabber on internet forums!"

Quote: thecesspit

Lets not go for the hyperbole, or the other case or the metaphor. I play a game of a blackjack against you. Where does it state that I may not recall what cards have already been taken from the deck.

I never said that - you may recall ALL the cards played indeed.
If you RAISE your bet on a positive count in a REAL casino - and NOT on this board - you may get backed off if caught, in real life. That's different. I do this in real casinos, just describing it on an internet board.

Quote: thecesspit

That's all I ask for.

And that's all you're gonna get. If you try to anything against the casino's house rules, you'll get backed off - thrown off the game. And it is OKAY for the casino to do so - no matter HOW you feel about it.
Here I am talking about real gamblers in real casinos, - with real pit bosses - not a mental masterbation exercise on an Internet forum.
Can we make this distinction concerning real casinos?

Quote: thecesspit

If there is a -state- law against it, fine.

Cess - there does NOT have to be a state law to be thrown out of a casino - you can be thrown out for breaking a house rule on Blackjack play, or any inappropriate behavior. Doesn't matter how gamblers feel abouit it, it HAPPENS. Spend your hard earned money on a fucking lawyer, and he'll tell you there doesn't have to be a law, you were just thrown out - it was legal. Put a band-aid on your hand, and let mommy give you a kiss. And you had spent your money on a real lawyer. Do some real card counting at a real casino with real money first before you spend real money on a real lawyer to complain about "the laws" that you don't like. Sorry - just a reality check here.

Quote: thecesspit

I am purely stating that there HAS TO BE a common rule set for any game. Regardless of the temerity of some players of that game to ignore the law, the general rules of polite behaviour or what ever else.

No, there does not. Do you think you're John Roberts of the Supreme court??!! If you do, you are in one hell of a fantasy. Some casinos hit soft-17, some stand soft-17, some allow double after split (DAS) some do not, etc. see Wizardofodds.com's blackjack rules by casino -= and YOU will see that they differ.
But There is ONE common rule: ALL casinos in the State of Nevada may back off or expel a player for any game rule infraction, including card-counting at Blackjack. You finally got that??

Quote: thecesspit

I'm interested in the rules of the game.

Okay - the rules of the game of blackjack:
1. Dealer draws until 17
2. Some places hit soft 17.
3. Casinos in the State of Nevada may back off or expel a player for any game rule infraction, including card-counting at Blackjack.
4. Local rules are discribed by a casino-by-casino basis at www.wizardofodds.com

As for the rule: "Casinos in the State of Nevada may back off or expel a player for any game rule infraction, including card-counting at Blackjack."
This rule is pretty clear.
I am amazed at the resistance and difficulty in our board members capacity in comprehending this rule:
"Casinos in the State of Nevada may back off or expel a player for any game rule infraction, including card-counting at Blackjack."
Jesus, what is there to understand?
1. Nevada Casino Pit boss says to you: "You're done for the night, asshole, get out of here;"
2. Security excorts you to your car (only to make sure that you don't get robbed);
3. You don't run the games, the casino does, AND:
4. You bitch and moan about it at this great site: Mommy - they won't let me count cards in a real casino! Waa, Sob! Reality check also occurs at the same site.

Sigh....

How many times do I have to repeat "I don't have a problem with a casino backing off a player".

Did I ever bloody well say "Oh mai, how dare the casino back me off".

Did I say it was -wrong- for the casino to back a player off?

No.

Do I say "players never get backed off".

No.

Would I have a problem being asked to stop playing if I was counting?

No.

I merely challenged your statement "the house rules say card counting is not allowed" to ask WHERE these house rules are stated.

That's it. You want to run off and make this some sort of anti-casino crusade I am on. I'm not.

As for this "3. Casinos in the State of Nevada may back off or expel a player for any game rule infraction, including card-counting at Blackjack.".. what is the source for this rule?

Which assumes there is another rule that says "counting cards is not allowed", and defines card counting to some degree. I suspect you've pulled it out of your butt. This is all people are asking for... what -states- precisely that a played MAY NOT COUNT CARDS at blackjack and alter their behaviour based on a history they can recall.

I don't think I am John Roberts, but I do spend a lot of time with rule sets and specifications and games. And games have to have a rule set that all parties know about. I'm not stating that all casinos or even all tables must have the same rules, but I am stating that the rules and variants on the rules for individual games should be a common knowledge for all parties, or all parties have access to such rules.

I doubt there is any rule of blackjack that says players can not count cards. Because it seems there is no rule book for the game of blackjack in the casino.

I absolutely accept that a casino can stop a player playing for any reason or rule infraction, and that back off for card counting happens. Never has been my argument here, Dan.

Dan, I know you're upset, and I don't want to upset you any further, but I do have 2 serious questions for you:

1. Let's say I'm counting cards, and flat betting. The count is so heavily in my favor that when asked by a dealer "Would you like insurance?" I take insurance. Now, I'm counting and know that I have an advantage, because I have been keeping track of all the cards that have been dealt and am using that information to influence my bet. I never take insurance except if I have this big of an advantage. Am I cheating?

2. I buy in for $100. I'm betting $10 a hand. I lose 5 hands in a row, and I'm down $50. In that time, the count has gotten slightly good. Barely worth betting more for. I'm not having fun at the casino, the dealer is being a jerk, and it's smoky, and I just want to go home. I'd like to break even. Is it cheating if I just put the last $50 out there, or do I need to get up from that table, and go to a different table to bet the $50?