Super Fun 21

Hello everyone, as usual I have released a new game on my website today: Super Fun 21. Please let me know if you have any issues or suggestions.

It's just blackjack, but with the following differences:

1. Split, hit and double aces as much as you want
2. Any 5-card+ 21 wins 2:1
3. 6-card non-busting hand will automatically win
4. Double on any number of cards
5. Surrender on any number of cards
6. Double down rescue is allowed
7. Suited blackjacks pay 2:1, otherwise they pay 1:1 :(

On the Wizard of Odds site it says that only Diamond Blackjacks get paid 2:1 but I am pretty sure it was Suited Blackjack where I played this - Wikipedia mentions a 6:5 payout.

Anyways, have any of you played this game, maybe under a different name or with slightly different rules? To me it's not exactly clear what "Super Fun 21" is - is it its own game or is it just a regional ruleset of blackjack like how Reno has its own rules regarding double? - Super Fun 21 doesn't have any particularly defining characteristic like switching cards, free bet tokens, or a deck with missing 10s unlike other full-fledged blackjack variants.
It seems very similar to "Most Liberal Blackjack" that exists in Vegas, perhaps they could be seen as part of the same game family with "Super Fun 21", or perhaps they are just blackjack games with a group of fairly divergent rules.

I've really gotta veer away from 1:1 payouts on the BJ. Most of my winnings come from the BJ's themselves and shaving off for 6:5 or 1:1 hurts my game.

I played this game at Las Vegas several years ago. I would call it American 21, instead of Spanish 21. The only difference between them is the former blackjack is paid 1:1, but the latter 3:2.

These game investors were not innovative at all!

Quote: harris

To me it's not exactly clear what "Super Fun 21" is - is it its own game or is it just a regional ruleset of blackjack like how Reno has its own rules regarding double? - Super Fun 21 doesn't have any particularly defining characteristic like switching cards, free bet tokens, or a deck with missing 10s unlike other full-fledged blackjack variants.
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(Decisively abbreviated!)

My criteria that separates "Blackjack" games from the rest of the "21" family is that in Blackjack, naturals pay a premium. (I recogmize this differs from the original namesake game.)
In Super Fun 21, only suited naturals (or sometimes suited naturals in a particular suit) pay at a premium.

You can, of course, choose your own distinction to get hung up on.

It's a blackjack derivative that used to be widely dealt. I haven't seen it dealt other than from a CSM in a long time. (Unfortunately!)

I'm not even going to make a new post for this because but I added Spanish 21, enjoy.

Quote: harris

I'm not even going to make a new post for this because but I added Spanish 21, enjoy.
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Needs a little work. In the text on the right, there is a misspelling, and an error of the type that would be pointed out by a grammar Nazi.

We don't call an initial bet an ante in blackjack games. That term is best left to the world of poker-based games.

The game results being splashed over the top of the screen in verbose form doesn't help. Maybe something demure and on the bottom of the screen: "Win $1000", "Push", "Lose $2000" etc.

And you left out the most important rule of all in Spanish 21! That's the player wins automatically with any 21, including a blackjack. That's worth more than all the rare hand bonuses put together. (And the rare hands win automatically too, along with their bonuses, because they are 21s.)

And you left the pip 10s in the shoe! Can't do that. It does happen in casinos very rarely, where they forget to take the 10s out. I saw it once at Resorts. See if you can guess what I did to that table.

Not to be discouraging. Just trying to help you get your project the best it can be.

Monkey is right. Any player 21 wins automatically and six-card 21 wins 2:1 automatically, but this is not showing now. See picture.

Thanks to y'all for pointing out the various mistakes, I am grateful. Lesson learned, I am never posting my work on WoV after 1am ever again :D

I fixed the typo, removed the 10-cards, made the game automatically end at 21, the word Ante was removed, and the only issue now is that the "result" text is too verbose which I will deal with in coming days. I apologize in advance but I think I'll actually make the text a little more detailed for Spanish 21 to help dealers learn all the niche rules. Maybe in the future I can include a "settings" section which will let people skip the results page if they want.

Don't forget the Super Bonus payouts. people be waiting lifetimes for that to payoff.

Quote: harris

Thanks to y'all for pointing out the various mistakes, I am grateful. Lesson learned, I am never posting my work on WoV after 1am ever again :D

I fixed the typo, removed the 10-cards, made the game automatically end at 21, the word Ante was removed, and the only issue now is that the "result" text is too verbose which I will deal with in coming days. I apologize in advance but I think I'll actually make the text a little more detailed for Spanish 21 to help dealers learn all the niche rules. Maybe in the future I can include a "settings" section which will let people skip the results page if they want.
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Here's something every player will thank you for- make sure the bonus payouts apply after a split! E.g you split 8's and get 8-7-6, you are entitled to 3:2 according to the official rules of the game. Some casinos have made up a rule otherwise, and about half of dealers will tell you no just because it's easier and safer (in their minds) than paying you properly, and that has been the source of many heated arguments.

Not quite there yet. Player 21= player win, no exceptions ever.

Got it, fixed :)

According to the Wizard of Odds website, bonuses do not pay after splits at most casinos. So, I did not incorporate that into my website.

In the near future, my website will have adjustable rules for things such as Hit/Stand on Soft 17, # of Decks, Double After Split, Reno Double, 3:2/6:5, etc. including the bonus split rule one day

I was just in Atlantic City to submit some paperwork. I went to three casinos briefly and talked with the dealers. Two casinos said that the 6-7-8 bonus doesn't pay after a split. In contrast, at Tropicana the dealers and pitboss seemed unsure but leaned towards the belief that it was correct for a bonus to be paid after a split.
No place allowed 'doubling more than once' which is something I've seen on the Wizard of Odds website, has anyone seen this in real life? I think the variant "Player's Edge 21" might have multiple doubling allowed based on the Wizard of Odds article about it.

This brings up two questions:

A) Does anyone want to do an informal Spanish 21 survey with me to see where three-card bonuses count after splits? Are there any other very small rules differences in Spanish 21 that might be different across casinos?

B) Imagine I am betting a $5000 hand on Spanish 21, split, and then get a suited 7-7-7. I could be missing out on thousands of dollars depending on the interpretation of the rules. Does Tropicana Casino (just for the sake of example) have some master document in a vault with the exact precise Spanish 21 rules in case they have to settle some dispute with the New Jersey Gaming Commission?

You don't split if going for the Super Bonus. Do try to bet $25 or more to collect the $5,000 bonus or you will have FOMO if you bet less and it hit.

AI wrote: The probability of hitting the Super Bonus is 1 in 668,382, with six decks, and 1 in 549,188 with eight decks.

From what I've figured out, redoubling used to exist in Spanish 21 out west and it doesn't exist in the east. I'd play Spanish 21 over 6:5 BJ, but the Vegas casinos seem to have killed off Spanish 21 a long time ago.

I can't double a 4 card 11 to get paid 6:4 on a 5 card 21, it will pay double like a regular hand. No bonuses allowed on doubled hands.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/16767-spanish-21-question/#post319058
January 28th, 2014

Quote: sabre

The standard rule is that 6-7-8 and 5+ card 21 bonuses apply to split hands as long as the split hand was not doubled. Some casinos may have their own house rules. For example, Mohegan Sun in CT has explicit wording on the felt stating that split hands aren't paid these bonuses.

I've had floor people tell me adamantly that split hands don't qualify for these bonuses. Each time though, I was eventually paid after complaining up the chain of command.
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Quote: harris

...
A) Does anyone want to do an informal Spanish 21 survey with me to see where three-card bonuses count after splits? Are there any other very small rules differences in Spanish 21 that might be different across casinos?

B) Imagine I am betting a $5000 hand on Spanish 21, split, and then get a suited 7-7-7. I could be missing out on thousands of dollars depending on the interpretation of the rules. Does Tropicana Casino (just for the sake of example) have some master document in a vault with the exact precise Spanish 21 rules in case they have to settle some dispute with the New Jersey Gaming Commission?
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Already done. The official rules, that you get when you order the felt and signs, is you get paid on the special bonus hands (other than the Super Bonus) when you split. There should be no argument. That does not mean a casino will not make up their own rules, but casinos look for all kinds of ways to screw their patrons. You might be surprised at the hands they've tried to not pay me for, especially on a non-traditional game (Spanish 21) or as a non-traditional player (white guy playing low-stakes baccarat.)

The worst one is done at the Mohegan-affiliated properties, and they will not only not pay you on the splits, they will not let you draw or double to split aces, which makes the game all but unplayable. (I am speaking as a card counter, not a recreational player.) A few of the Pennsylvania stores also printed up their own rules where they don't pay the normal bonuses on splits. Apparently the rules are so heavily controlled by the state under PA law (which is a good thing, overall) they can do that as long as they get approval first. It's really not that big a deal and it does not affect the player return much, but there are a few hands where it makes a difference in how you play, especially to a counter who is using a lot of playing indices.

Regarding your situation B) I have had that happen, not with thousands but with hundreds. This is how it went down:

Me: "Hey wait, that's 6-7-8, it pays like blackjack."

Dealer: "No! No! Eet no pay! I no pay after split.:

"Yes, you do."

"No! Eet say you no pay 3:2 after split. Only 1:1 after split."

"Get your floor."

Now the floor person walks over, older female. "What's the matter?"

"He say he get pay 3:2 after split. I pay only 1:1."

"Oh yeah you don't get paid the bonus after the split."

"Yes you do. What do the rules say? They're right on the felt."

Then the dealer looks at the felt. "Eet say.... bonuses void after doubling... or splitting."

Me: (Now I'm mad because he lied) "Does it really say after splitting, or did you just make that up?"

"Eet say Super Bonus void after splitting."

"Is this the Super Bonus, or just a regular bonus?"

"Ehhh... I don't know."

Floor: "It says bonuses void after doubling."

Me: "Did I double, or split?"

Floor: "Same thing."

Now I am angry! "Same thing?" An unkind term for a developmental disability came to mind.

"Get the rule book out and get a real manager over here."

She takes out this paper rule book, flips through it, then hands it to the dealer to read the part about the rules for bonuses, doubling, and splitting. He still doesn't get it and is trying to torture the words into where I don't get paid. But then I realized something... I know what it means when an adult is blustering and trying to sound authoritative, but gives printed material to someone else to read.

I said to the floor supervisor "You can't read, can you?"

[gasp] "How DARE you!"

"Get the man in charge out here."

"I'm the pit superv..."

"I said the MAN in charge."

All right, that was enough to make he tap out and get the shift manager. Guy comes out- "So what's the problem? Oh yeah, he split then got 6-7-8? Yeah I'm pretty sure he gets paid 3:2." (Looks at rule book) "Yeah he gets paid 3:2, he only doesn't get the bonus if he doubled."

Simple as that, right? But I must have gone through similar a dozen times in my Spanish 21 career. Including twice with the same dealer! Got corrected, then a couple of years later tries it on me again. Who knows how many times she screwed a player in that time, who just shrugged and accepted it?

The cause of this is the arrogant obstinacy that shows up when you give people of low status a little bit of power over those of higher status. There's a certain mindset where being able to treat people like that is a reward for them. Don't want to admit they're wrong, want to show their colleagues how tough and "in charge" they are, want to express their resentment towards people casually throwing around what is a lot of money to them, while they have to work weekends and holidays in a polyester uniform. As you spend more time in casinos you'll notice things like this. Much more in some environments than others.

Actually, new dealers are not familiar with this rule. I was paid the 3:2 bonus when I doubled on a 4-card 11 vs. Ten and got a 5-card 21. I asked this question earlier: if these bonuses are paid after doubling, should I hit or double a 3-card 11 vs. Ten?

Quote: harris

I was just in Atlantic City to submit some paperwork. I went to three casinos briefly and talked with the dealers. Two casinos said that the 6-7-8 bonus doesn't pay after a split. In contrast, at Tropicana the dealers and pitboss seemed unsure but leaned towards the belief that it was correct for a bonus to be paid after a split.
No place allowed 'doubling more than once' which is something I've seen on the Wizard of Odds website, has anyone seen this in real life? I think the variant "Player's Edge 21" might have multiple doubling allowed based on the Wizard of Odds article about it.

I thought in New Jersey casinos were required to have their official rules as approved by the CCC available on site and for review if requested. That may have changed, but ask to see their printed and approved house rules.

From the conversations I had with pitbosses and dealers, I think that this question hinges on the interpretation of the verb "doubled". Some dealers argued that when you split a hand, it is being "doubled".

One thing that was surprising to me is that while most casinos had the game rules, no casino seemed to have a copy of the House Way for Face Up Pai Gow Poker, Pai Gow Tiles, and Asia Poker.

I feel like one of the fundamental differences between Slot Machines and Table Games is that Table Games are transparent and you can find the strategy and house edge given the open rules. When some variables (like House Way) are unknown, it makes Table Games more like slot machines. This is also why I will never play the progressive spinning wheel thing on a screen at a casino table.

In light of recent developments I have decided that 6-7-8 and 7-7-7 now pay out on splits in my website's Spanish 21 ;)

Quote: aceside

Actually, new dealers are not familiar with this rule. I was paid the 3:2 bonus when I doubled on a 4-card 11 vs. Ten and got a 5-card 21. I asked this question earlier: if these bonuses are paid after doubling, should I hit or double a 3-card 11 vs. Ten?
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Unless you think there's going to be a reason why you would double on a 4-card stiff, this rule interpretation makes no difference- basic SP21 strategy is still to hit.

It would make a difference on a 4-card 11.

Quote: harris

In light of recent developments I have decided that 6-7-8 and 7-7-7 now pay out on splits in my website's Spanish 21 ;)
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Couple of other things:

It looked like it paid me 1:1 on a natural.

No multi-card doubles! One of the special rules of Spanish 21 is you can double on any number of cards.

Dear Automatic Monkey,

Thanks for letting me know, it wasn't like this originally but some new code I added messed the payments up. I just got home and fixed both of those issues on my website :)

I have a question about re-doubling in Spanish 21, which is something I have only read about...

First of all, has anyone ever seen re-doubling allowed in Spanish 21 in real life?

Let's say that my original bet was $10, and then I doubled to make it $20. Would my redouble make it $30 or $40?

Additionally, can you "rescue" (surrender) after a re-double, or only after the initial double?

Once I know the answer, I can add Player's Edge 21, which is extremely similar to Spanish 21 but with three doubles explicitly allowed in the rules as well as including a 5:1 bonus on the Insurance bet for suited blackjack.

Thanks and have a great day :)

Quote: harris

I have a question about re-doubling in Spanish 21, which is something I have only read about...

First of all, has anyone ever seen re-doubling allowed in Spanish 21 in real life?

Let's say that my original bet was $10, and then I doubled to make it $20. Would my redouble make it $30 or $40?

Additionally, can you "rescue" (surrender) after a re-double, or only after the initial double?

Once I know the answer, I can add Player's Edge 21, which is extremely similar to Spanish 21 but with three doubles explicitly allowed in the rules as well as including a 5:1 bonus on the Insurance bet for suited blackjack.

Thanks and have a great day :)
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I have played it before and whenever redouble was allowed it was always H17 . It was quite common in Washington state.
To answer your question you would have $40 after the redouble. Another issue was in some of the smaller casinos max bets were only $200 or $500 so if you bet too much you would have to be essentially doubling for less which would sometimes change the normal basic strategy.

Thanks for the answer. Was the game you were playing called Spanish 21 or Player's Edge 21? From what I have seen, Player's Edge 21 is pretty dominant in Washington.

Additionally, do you remember if you could rescue after that re-double?

There is only one Spanish 21 H-17 re-doubling game in New York. It is in Del Lago. Double down rescue is always allowed at any point.

Quote: harris

Thanks for the answer. Was the game you were playing called Spanish 21 or Player's Edge 21? From what I have seen, Player's Edge 21 is pretty dominant in Washington.

Additionally, do you remember if you could rescue after that re-double?
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It was called Spanish 21 but that was around 12 years ago so not sure if it still exists. I’m not positive but I think you could rescue even after redouble.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I just added Player's Edge 21 to my website so that you can play with redoubling and have better odds at insurance than ~25%.