Dobrij
Dobrij
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March 3rd, 2023 at 5:41:19 PM permalink
Hi to all !
Sorry if this topic has already been brought up. If so, please provide a link to it.

The question is. If by agreement we two play different bets on one box, and the casino lets one of us do the surender or even money, while the other can hit. In total together, can we get an advantage?
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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Dieter
March 3rd, 2023 at 6:25:20 PM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

Hi to all !
Sorry if this topic has already been brought up. If so, please provide a link to it.

The question is. If by agreement we two play different bets on one box, and the casino lets one of us do the surender or even money, while the other can hit. In total together, can we get an advantage?
link to original post



No. One of you is making the correct play and the other one is making the incorrect play. You do not gain an advantage by having one of you make a non optimal play.
aceside
aceside
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March 3rd, 2023 at 7:03:29 PM permalink
Eliot has mentioned that in some split for less situations, we may gain a little edge, For example, player 8,8 vs 10.
Ace2
Ace2
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March 3rd, 2023 at 7:14:07 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

Eliot has mentioned that in some split for less situations, we may gain a little edge, For example, player 8,8 vs 10.
link to original post

Even if itís true, itís gotta be a negligible effect especially factoring in the low frequency of 88 v 10
Itís all about making that GTA
aceside
aceside
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March 3rd, 2023 at 7:15:14 PM permalink
First of all, it must be true. Second, the edge of blackjack is tiny after all.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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March 3rd, 2023 at 7:45:55 PM permalink
Those plays alone will not give you an edge but in conjunction with counting can increase your edge. Itís addressed in Wongís book Blackjack secrets.
The larger the spread between the initial bettor and the back bettor can increase the edge.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 3rd, 2023 at 7:46:00 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

Eliot has mentioned that in some split for less situations, we may gain a little edge, For example, player 8,8 vs 10.
link to original post



Split for less? Iíve never seen that. What casino allows you to split for less? Or is just that I havenít played blackjack in quite a while..

Even ifÖ.. thatís not what the OP asked. He was asking about surrender.
Hunterhill
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MrCasinoGames
March 3rd, 2023 at 7:51:38 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: aceside

Eliot has mentioned that in some split for less situations, we may gain a little edge, For example, player 8,8 vs 10.
link to original post



Split for less? Iíve never seen that. What casino allows you to split for less? Or is just that I havenít played blackjack in quite a while..
link to original post


In some casinos overseas they allow back betting . The seated player controls the spot usually. ( some places the biggest bettor controls it) So the $ 5 player splits 8,8 vs 10 the big bettor doesnít want to split so he plays one hand with now a starting total of 8, which is much better than starting with a total of 16. There are other similar scenarios.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Ace2
Ace2
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March 3rd, 2023 at 9:01:14 PM permalink
In Vegas I think Iíve had people back bet my hand.

Though I donít understand why someone would want to
Itís all about making that GTA
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 3rd, 2023 at 9:30:06 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: aceside

Eliot has mentioned that in some split for less situations, we may gain a little edge, For example, player 8,8 vs 10.
link to original post



Split for less? Iíve never seen that. What casino allows you to split for less? Or is just that I havenít played blackjack in quite a while..
link to original post


In some casinos overseas they allow back betting . The seated player controls the spot usually. ( some places the biggest bettor controls it) So the $ 5 player splits 8,8 vs 10 the big bettor doesnít want to split so he plays one hand with now a starting total of 8, which is much better than starting with a total of 16. There are other similar scenarios.
link to original post



Iíve played overseas with back betting allowed. The larger bettor controlled the action. There were no separate actions. Of course I havenít played everywhere. But I now understand the concept, I just find it hard to believe a casino would allow it.
DogHand
DogHand
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DieterDobrij
March 4th, 2023 at 4:25:42 AM permalink
Ten years ago this month I posted "MAR 2013: SPLITTING HAIRS ON HAIRY SPLITS" over at bj21. If you have Green Chip access, you can find the post in the Post of the Month archive:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-forums/sub_boards/posts-of-the-month-archive/topics/mar-2013-splitting-hairs-on-hairy-splits?page=1

The post describes the advantage gained by two players working in conjunction with one (the Front Bettor, or FB) betting small and controlling the action on the box while the other (the Back Bettor, or BB) back bets a large amount.

A quote from the post describing the concept:

Quote:

"As a simple example, let's assume the FB bets $10, while the BB bets $100, on a 6D, S17, DAS game. Our heroes are dealt 6-6 vs. 9. What is their optimal play?

If we consult an expectation table, for example, the Wizard of Odds Appendix 9 table (sorry, Don ... his were online so I didn't have to type them myself!) at https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/9/6ds17r4/, we can see that the Hit expectation is -0.347155, which means that if they Hit (the BS play, of course), our team can expect a return of -0.347155*($110) = -$38.18705.

But what if they Split? The same table shows the Split expectation is -0.602063, but this is for "normal" splits, where both resulting hands begin with the same wager. For each of the two hands, then, the expectation is one-half the given value, or -0.3010315. Now if the team performs as unequal split, they'll have one $110 bet and one $10 bet, each with an expectation of -0.3010315. This means that our heroes can expect a return of -0.3010315*($110 + $10) = -$36.12378. Although this is still negative, it's not as negative as the BS play of Hit. Thus, in this case the optimal "team" play is to perform an unequal split."



The post then describes how to calculate the optimal play for each potential split using EV tables, and presents tables of the optimal team strategy, which varies based on the house rules (S17/H17; DAS/NoDAS), number of decks, and the ratio of big bet to small bet. It concludes by tabulating the increase in EV gained by using the optimal team strategy.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
teliot
teliot
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March 4th, 2023 at 6:16:10 AM permalink
Not sure if anyone posted it, but here is my article on Split for Less:
https://www.888casino.com/blog/blackjack-tips/splitting-for-less-in-blackjack
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
aceside
aceside
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March 4th, 2023 at 6:37:19 AM permalink
This post rallies many worldís best blackjack players.
DRich
DRich
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March 4th, 2023 at 7:10:32 AM permalink
]
Quote: Dobrij

Hi to all !
Sorry if this topic has already been brought up. If so, please provide a link to it.

The question is. If by agreement we two play different bets on one box, and the casino lets one of us do the surender or even money, while the other can hit. In total together, can we get an advantage?
link to original post



I have never seen a casino that lets two different people bet and make different decisions. Normally backbetting is one person playing the hand and the other just has to go along with all of the actions of the primary player.

Many years ago backbetting was very big in Atlantic City when players couldn't get their own seat. I had a scenario where the guy backbetting on my hand was drunk and obnoxious. I eventually just started making the minimum $5 bet and busting on purpose so the other guy would lose his bets which were much bigger, and then leave. The drunk started threatening me and the pitboss called security and had him thrown out.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
billryan
billryan
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March 4th, 2023 at 8:17:27 AM permalink
One of the many BJ books I read told of an obnoxious gentleman back betting a younger woman and being quite annoying. She asked him not to, but he persisted. She was betting small, and he was betting big. Finally, she gets a blackjack and, turning around, demanded a large payout from the backer, or she would take a hit. The guy protested, to no avail.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 4th, 2023 at 10:26:19 AM permalink
The concept is pretty simple.
No one has answered my question if it is actually available in real life now?
And even if available, wouldnít taking advantage of it be even more obvious than card counting?
aceside
aceside
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March 4th, 2023 at 10:59:46 AM permalink
Its impractical in real life because the edge is too tiny to have any attention.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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March 4th, 2023 at 11:39:14 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

The concept is pretty simple.
No one has answered my question if it is actually available in real life now?
And even if available, wouldnít taking advantage of it be even more obvious than card counting?
link to original post


The last time I saw it was in 1996 in Venezuela. It was common in Asian casinos in 70s and 80s. I donít know if it still exists.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
blackjacklad
blackjacklad
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MrCasinoGames
March 5th, 2023 at 3:06:56 AM permalink
In the UK back betting is standard, often with the box arranged for up to 2 back bettors. It can be annoying but it offers opportunities to vulture the people betting behind you if you don't mind being an arsehole and nobody is paying attention to what you're doing and saying.

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