IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 16th, 2022 at 10:55:44 AM permalink
Since they can't back you off in Missouri and New Jersey, the only places you'd get ID'd would be at the cashier cage and hotel front desk.

Assume if you play unrated, is there any chance of getting databased at all?

If you refuse to provide ID at the cage, are they still legally obligated to cash your chips?
heatmap
heatmap
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October 16th, 2022 at 2:06:49 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

Since they can't back you off in Missouri and New Jersey, the only places you'd get ID'd would be at the cashier cage and hotel front desk.

Assume if you play unrated, is there any chance of getting databased at all?

If you refuse to provide ID at the cage, are they still legally obligated to cash your chips?
link to original post



the only thing they need to do in order to catch you counting cards is count cards with you and if you do the things a card counter would do when a card counter would do it

you dont need to play rated in order for it to be known if you are counting cards

many pit managers have said to me that they know how to count cards
DRich
DRich
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October 16th, 2022 at 2:40:27 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap


many pit managers have said to me that they know how to count cards



I believe that to be true but very few are competent at actually doing it and even fewer understand the plays to be made at different counts. Most are just ;looking to see if you are raising your bets on good counts.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
heatmap
heatmap
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October 16th, 2022 at 3:39:30 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap


many pit managers have said to me that they know how to count cards



I believe that to be true but very few are competent at actually doing it and even fewer understand the plays to be made at different counts. Most are just ;looking to see if you are raising your bets on good counts.
link to original post



fine haha

google "bloodhound shufflemaster" in order to see how they do it with a computer
DRich
DRich
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heatmap
October 16th, 2022 at 4:32:39 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap


google "bloodhound shufflemaster" in order to see how they do it with a computer



I am very familiar. Shufflemaster hired me and my company to write software for them for a few years..
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 16th, 2022 at 5:51:24 PM permalink
heatmap you're off topic. I'm referring to the consequences of getting caught counting specifically in Missouri and New Jersey.

Missouri and New Jersey have laws where they can not back off advantage players.
DogHand
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October 16th, 2022 at 5:58:25 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

heatmap you're off topic. I'm referring to the consequences of getting caught counting specifically in Missouri and New Jersey.

Missouri and New Jersey have laws where they can not back off advantage players.
link to original post



...but they can make the game unplayable. In Missouri I have seen the pit boss instruct the dealer to cut the pack so shallowly that she ends up shuffling every round.

Dog Hand
DRich
DRich
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October 16th, 2022 at 5:59:29 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

heatmap you're off topic. I'm referring to the consequences of getting caught counting specifically in Missouri and New Jersey.

Missouri and New Jersey have laws where they can not back off advantage players.
link to original post



You are correct that they can not ban you from playing, but what they have been doing for 20 years is only letting known counters bet the table minimum and not vary their bets.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
unJon
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AxelWolfChumpChange
October 16th, 2022 at 6:43:13 PM permalink
Last time I was in AC I played blackjack at several casinos. At each, the rule was that without showing ID or a players card, you could only bet the minimum.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
aceside
aceside
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October 16th, 2022 at 8:56:01 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Last time I was in AC I played blackjack at several casinos. At each, the rule was that without showing ID or a players card, you could only bet the minimum.
link to original post


I don't recall seeing such a notice. However, I saw a sign on their blackjack tables saying players without showing a players card are limited to one spot at $100 max bet, but that was in Borgata.
ChumpChange
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October 16th, 2022 at 9:01:44 PM permalink
One of my local casinos keeps a list of players and there's signs on the tables for those players that they can only max bet $100. It's just real chilling how they notify everybody the casino is keeping a list like that, and everybody who's on the list already knows it. What does it take to be on the list? Who knows? It's kind of hard to defend against capricious lists like that.
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 16th, 2022 at 11:46:36 PM permalink
Ok let me specify my question:

Are there any consequences for getting caught counting in MO/NJ, afterwards, OUTSIDE of MO/NJ, such as getting databased?

Assume you play unrated and get caught card counting. Can they somehow database you? What if cashier forces you to show ID to cash chips? If you refuse to show ID are they legally obligated to pay the chips?
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 16th, 2022 at 11:47:40 PM permalink
(Additional info: I'm not in any databases, yet)
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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October 17th, 2022 at 12:01:32 AM permalink
Some casinos require ID at $1K cash-outs, others at $3K cash-outs, still others at $5K cash-outs. But the $10K cash-out will require an ID regardless. Not sure the cashier cares much but the pitbosses do and they are in close contact.
AlanMendelson
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October 17th, 2022 at 12:29:19 AM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP



If you refuse to provide ID at the cage, are they still legally obligated to cash your chips?
link to original post



I can't talk about other states but in Nevada they can legally hold your chips or any payout until you show legal ID.
DogHand
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October 17th, 2022 at 1:00:40 AM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

Ok let me specify my question:

Are there any consequences for getting caught counting in MO/NJ, afterwards, OUTSIDE of MO/NJ, such as getting databased?

Assume you play unrated and get caught card counting. Can they somehow database you? What if cashier forces you to show ID to cash chips? If you refuse to show ID are they legally obligated to pay the chips?
link to original post



IWannaBeAP,

The casinos can add a player to a database, even if they cannot bar the player.

If the casino doesn't know who the player is, he will be entered into the database as "Unidentified" and assigned a number.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
lilredrooster
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October 17th, 2022 at 2:59:48 AM permalink
___________


how you will be regarded and dealt with by the casino will largely be determined by your spread

an AP spreading $15 (acutally I'm not even sure $15 tables are still around - I haven't played in so long) to $90 will be treated much, much differently than an AP spreading $100 to $1,200

when I rattled around A.C. in the 90s I was a small fish spreading $10 to about $90 - I tried to stay under $100 but sometimes went over

I was bothered a few times - but not much - A.C. had a law that derived from a Ken Uston lawsuit that didn't allow them to bar players

of course, I'm an old guy - and things may be different now - but I very much doubt large casinos will hassle little guys much

even so I would say that even for a small fish it wouldn't be wise to stay long in one joint - more than a couple of hours - imho hit and run is the best way to go


.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 17th, 2022 at 1:13:03 PM permalink
So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
DRich
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October 17th, 2022 at 2:44:40 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



Maybe cash one at a time if that falls under their limit for ID. Always better to take smaller chips if you are trying to stay under the radar
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
unJon
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October 17th, 2022 at 2:50:12 PM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



I think the forum APs will tell you that you can demand payment without showing ID and call gaming if necessary.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
DRich
DRich
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October 17th, 2022 at 2:53:16 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



I think the forum APs will tell you that you can demand payment without showing ID and call gaming if necessary.
link to original post



Generally when you call Gaming they will ask for an ID for the report which the casino gets a copy of.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
unJon
unJon
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October 17th, 2022 at 3:00:12 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: unJon

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



I think the forum APs will tell you that you can demand payment without showing ID and call gaming if necessary.
link to original post



Generally when you call Gaming they will ask for an ID for the report which the casino gets a copy of.
link to original post



And I tend think you got a good deal at 8.5. I would have guessed 6.5 as the opening line. Be interested to see what it is on Friday when books publish the weekly look ahead.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
DRich
DRich
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October 17th, 2022 at 3:11:30 PM permalink
Quote: unJon



And I tend think you got a good deal at 8.5. I would have guessed 6.5 as the opening line. Be interested to see what it is on Friday when books publish the weekly look ahead.



I would be surprised if it is more than 7. Of course, I don't follow the NFL as closely as I do college football.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Gandler
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October 17th, 2022 at 4:42:36 PM permalink
I can only speak to the NJ side (I have never been in or played in Missouri).

If you are playing BJ, they cannot hold your hand against you in a manner that effects your play, they cannot back you off, ban you, or flat bet you. They have to let you play by the same rules and limits as the whole table (they can change the whole table). They can tell the dealer to shuffle every couple hands, they can change the table limits for the whole table, and do some other stuff that makes it impossible to count (and most likely annoys the whole table). But, they cannot do anything that singles you out.

However, they can (and will) voids all comps (which will carry over to casinos owned by the same companies). They can ban you from all comps for any reason (essentially), even if you play uncarded (they will match your face). I actually had this happen to my favorite recreational casino (I was not counting or for that matter playing at all when they claimed, I was actually on the other side of the world for a year during the period that they claimed they recorded me counting in disguise and not presenting my player's card), and I had to meet with a bunch of people and show a bunch of paperwork to prove I was not gambling there when they alleged and was not even in the Country (it turns out it was somebody with a very similar face to me, but with long hair and a beard, so I guess they thought I was coming in uncarded with a wig and fake beard to count, which is just beyond silly, but it got resolved after spending far too much time giving them all of my details and locations for the last year. What I would have done if this had happened when I was in America, I have no idea, I would probably be out of luck since comps are 100% their discretion at the end of the day). But, the point is if you have (or have had) a card at that casino they are probably tracking you (or attempting to).

As for a database, there is no legal restriction on sharing to a database, so I would be surprised if there was not one (but I have no personal knowledge). Honestly, they would be foolish if there was not such a system. In my circumstance there was really only once casino that I cared about comps at, at the time, so I did not check the status at other AC properties.
ViennaPizza
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October 17th, 2022 at 8:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

. Not sure the cashier cares much but the pitbosses do and they are in close contact.



Pitboss heat is manageable if you glance at him or her occasionally. The problematic heat is surveillance where you have no idea if they're onto you or not.

And then surveillance calls the cashier and it's GG for your identity
IWannaBeAP
IWannaBeAP
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October 17th, 2022 at 11:22:10 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



Maybe cash one at a time if that falls under their limit for ID. Always better to take smaller chips if you are trying to stay under the radar
link to original post



You're allowed to do that? At my local casino with $1000 cash limit I did $800 with no ID, and then $800 and they asked for ID. I said why, they said because you were here recently.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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October 18th, 2022 at 2:39:20 AM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post




if you are a smallish fish and are cashing 7 purples because you're having a great day - a great drift - then the answer is this:

you should never cash more that $1K at any one casino

after getting close you should leave that casino and go to another one

thinking that you're winning here so you should stay here is just superstition and has no validity


.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
DRich
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October 18th, 2022 at 3:36:07 AM permalink
Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: DRich

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So then what do you do when you win like 7 purple chips and cashing them in would result in being asked for ID? After you get countermeasured that is.
link to original post



Maybe cash one at a time if that falls under their limit for ID. Always better to take smaller chips if you are trying to stay under the radar
link to original post



You're allowed to do that? At my local casino with $1000 cash limit I did $800 with no ID, and then $800 and they asked for ID. I said why, they said because you were here recently.
link to original post


Spread it out over multiple days. Yes, you are allowed to do it but if the casino realizes what you are doing they will file a SAR on you. But a SAR really isn't a big deal if they don't know your name.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
7NeverWins
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October 18th, 2022 at 9:04:37 AM permalink
In certain NJ casinos, they can seemingly enforce their own rules without having to have it written in print.

For instance, EZ Baccarat at Ballys used to allow players to bet on both Player and Banker simultaneously. This would allow for a Free hand at literally no cost, unless they played side bets or a Dragon 7 (3 card winning hand total of 7 for Banker ) hit.

They unofficially enforced a rule that No player can play on both bets simultaneously and sure enough, many bus patrons stopped going to Ballys altogether. Playing both sides is not illegal nor against the rules, so it was a Hack they found to progress the game and shoot for side bets with minimal loss.

So while NJ casinos may not be able to ban a player for counting cards, they can find some bogus reason to limit or prohibit their play.
AitchTheLetter
AitchTheLetter
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October 18th, 2022 at 10:25:27 AM permalink
Did they have no commission on the Banker wins? Or does EZ Bacc not have that? I have only seen Midi and Mini Bacc tables and they both have commission for the Banker wagers.
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