I wonder if I'm getting rated like an idiot?

Recently, I've decided knowing what my casino thinks of my blackjack skills (since I play rated) is important and worth spending time and money on. So I decided to completely flat bet through a 3 hour session and see how much comps I get, and based on that, how the casino probably rates me.

So the way I understand things, from what I've heard, unconfirmed, is that blackjack comps are based on their opinion of your skill level. The worse you are, the higher the comps.

So I flatbet $25 at a full 5 player table for 3 hours straight. It's double blackjack with 0.4% house edge approx. And after 3 hours, I got $6 worth of comps, and 380 tier points. This is at a Penn Gaming casino.

Unfortunately I do not know how they calculate estimated hands per hour, as well as how each skill level (Basic strategy player, average player, idiot, mega idiot) gets comped. I'm hoping I'd be in the idiot tier, I made some cover plays on purpose. Nor do I know what the real hands per hour is, regardless on how they estimate.

So I've heard before comps for blackjack are estimated at 1 hand per minute. Not sure if that's actually the case, but if that is the case, $25*60*3 = $4500 total wager, and I got $6 comps back which is 0.133% comps back on a 0.4% Theo House edge game.

Well, what do you guys think? Am I rated as an idiot?

My ancient history of comps knowledge for BJ is I'd need a 4 hour block of table time to earn one base bet. So sticking around for 4 hours flat-betting $25 would earn me a $25 comp. Leaving early could crimp that. But since casino comps are abnormally low since the pandemic started, I don't know what to expect. Also, if more players are at the table, you'll play fewer hands and get less comps. If you could play at a full table and get one base bet back, that's maximizing your comps right there. If you play one on one and only get $25 in comps, that's probably what the bean counters are thinking.

Low level blackjack is very inconsistent between casinos. A very simplistic model I use is 15% of your average bet per hour. If you average bet was $25 for three hours my model would say your comps should be between ($25*0.15)*3 = $11.15. Again, I use this for low limit blackjack. High rollers can get as much as 70%.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Recently, I've decided knowing what my casino thinks of my blackjack skills (since I play rated) is important and worth spending time and money on. So I decided to completely flat bet through a 3 hour session and see how much comps I get, and based on that, how the casino probably rates me.

So the way I understand things, from what I've heard, unconfirmed, is that blackjack comps are based on their opinion of your skill level. The worse you are, the higher the comps.

So I flatbet $25 at a full 5 player table for 3 hours straight. It's double blackjack with 0.4% house edge approx. And after 3 hours, I got $6 worth of comps, and 380 tier points. This is at a Penn Gaming casino.

Unfortunately I do not know how they calculate estimated hands per hour, as well as how each skill level (Basic strategy player, average player, idiot, mega idiot) gets comped. I'm hoping I'd be in the idiot tier, I made some cover plays on purpose. Nor do I know what the real hands per hour is, regardless on how they estimate.

So I've heard before comps for blackjack are estimated at 1 hand per minute. Not sure if that's actually the case, but if that is the case, $25*60*3 = $4500 total wager, and I got $6 comps back which is 0.133% comps back on a 0.4% Theo House edge game.

Well, what do you guys think? Am I rated as an idiot?
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I think the ‘variance’ on low level rating is huge. I’ve done basically the same (flat bet $25 Pai Gow) and my range is $1 an hour to $4 an hour in comps. Same casino. Same table. Different pit bosses.

I'm curious... if your play has been analyzed, and the pit boss pegs you as a skilled/BS player for comp rating, will that rating only apply to that particular session, or does it go on your "permanent record," possibly affecting future sessions?

Quote: Joeman

I'm curious... if your play has been analyzed, and the pit boss pegs you as a skilled/BS player for comp rating, will that rating only apply to that particular session, or does it go on your "permanent record," possibly affecting future sessions?
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I'm extremely curious about this too.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So the way I understand things, from what I've heard, unconfirmed, is that blackjack comps are based on their opinion of your skill level. The worse you are, the higher the comps.link to original post

I doubt very much if there's a skill rating involved. These days comps at that level of play are almost completely computerized based on basically three variables...game type, bet size and duration of play. AFAIK...the input screen the pit boss uses to enter in the relevant data doesn't even have a field for "skill level".

The old rule of thumb used to be about 20% of your Expected Loss (EL). However, this was indeed subject to individual skill ratings, as I'll show in a minute.

Average Bet = $25
Avg Hands Per Hour = 80

Let's say you have a "standard" .5% HE blackjack game. The pit can rate you as better or worse. So they might rate you, someone playing PERFECT basic strategy at .5%, where as the person to your left splitting 5's and doubling on hard 7 might be rated as a poor player, which might rate them more like 3% HE (which you can substitute below and rerun the expect loss / comps).

EL = (AvgBet*NumHands)*HouseEdge
EL = (25*80)*(-.005) = -$10

Thus, if you're flat betting $25, or happen to have a spread with an average bet of $25, then you're 'roughly' losing $10/hour playing PERFECT basic strategy. This means, on average, the casino will comp you about $2/hour. MOST casinos however rate the average player far worse, more like 2% and upwards of 5% house edge pending quality of play. If the place 'averages' you at 2% before evaluating your play more thoroughly, then your EL/comps would look like this:

EL = (25*80)*(-.02) = -$40
Comps = 40*(.2) = $8/hour

This is again just an average... some casinos comp higher, some lower, but this is usually right in the middle range and used to be pretty accurate. I say used to be, because I haven't played regular/counting blackjack in years.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So I've heard before comps for blackjack are estimated at 1 hand per minute. Not sure if that's actually the case, but if that is the case, $25*60*3 = $4500 total wager, and I got $6 comps back which is 0.133% comps back on a 0.4% Theo House edge game.

link to original post

Case in point of why I don’t bother with comps. You wagered $4500 over three hours to get $6 in comps!

One free drink is worth more than that. I’d have several over the course of a three hour session

Deleted

I'd be looking for $25 of comps so I could get a meal at the food court.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So I've heard before comps for blackjack are estimated at 1 hand per minute. Not sure if that's actually the case, but if that is the case, $25*60*3 = $4500 total wager, and I got $6 comps back which is 0.133% comps back on a 0.4% Theo House edge game.

link to original post

Case in point of why I don’t bother with comps. You wagered $4500 over three hours to get $6 in comps!

One free drink is worth more than that. I’d have several over the course of a three hour session
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Theoretical win is like $40. How much of that do you think the casino should give back? 15% is not bad outside of Strip properties and Laughlin


ZCore13

Quote: UP84

Quote: IWannaBeAP

So the way I understand things, from what I've heard, unconfirmed, is that blackjack comps are based on their opinion of your skill level. The worse you are, the higher the comps.link to original post

I doubt very much if there's a skill rating involved. These days comps at that level of play are almost completely computerized based on basically three variables...game type, bet size and duration of play. AFAIK...the input screen the pit boss uses to enter in the relevant data doesn't even have a field for "skill level".
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These are how comps are calculated in Vegas/Tahoe:

Perpetual Comp Machine.

At the end of each session, the only discussion I have had with any pit boss, whether playing Blackjack or Baccarat, is what average bet I was given, and what time the pit boss has me down for.

As far as Baccarat, some casinos give
-a minute per hand played,

-some give an hour per shoe, and some simply give actual time played, in both of these cases times the % of hands played in the shoe (lot of free hands - lower %).

As far as Blackjack, if the pit boss is recording something other than simply average bet X time played, I am not aware of any such thing. I have played at public tables where the pit boss simply disappears and comes back much later to ask the dealer how much the player who has departed bet, so no way such a pit boss could have analyzed the table's play enough to decide whether this player or that would get a higher or lower percentage of that standard average bet X time played calculation.

If a pit boss' job includes analyzing the relative skills of each player at the table I doubt any pit boss could leave a table for very long...which is not the way I have observed it at public tables.

If someone is claiming that there is a % skill analysis for blackjack comps I would ask that that person back it up by asking a pit boss, and casino host. I could find out for sure next time I play.

As far as I know, if you're allowed to play at all, you will get the same comps as anyone else based on that standard formula.

Quote: UP84

I doubt very much if there's a skill rating involved.

I can tell you that on the table tracking systems that I have developed and worked on, a skill rating can be entered by the pitboss. The one I remember specifically had three options labeled as "beginner, normal, and skilled". the pitboss could choose one of the three and by default it was just "normal". They would also enter a speed component "slow, medium, fast" which was computed into the formula to determine the rating and comp.

For something like this, you'd have to tell us exactly where it was developed, where it was used (if it was ever used), otherwise it's not relevant or useful. I am sure a lot of things are worked on that are never implemented. It also sounds like something from a very long time ago?

Again, when I get a chance I may ask a couple of pit bosses and hosts at different casinos, although if there really is such a skill based option for the pit boss at blackjack, not sure I would want to delve further into it, as it might affect my own comps.

This makes more sense:

Quote: Zcore13

There is no doubt most software has it [skill tracking] as an option to use, but I've never heard of anyone actually using it in my 16 years in the business.
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I walked by a pit screen recently and I think it showed 4 BJ tables on it. I'd have to sneak a phone photo of it to even read it, the small print is terrible. I'm sure the pit could push some buttons on it to show other features on the screen, so it's likely pointless. There might have been player initials and pit inputted buy-ins on the screen.

Quote: DRich

Quote: UP84

I doubt very much if there's a skill rating involved.

I can tell you that on the table tracking systems that I have developed and worked on, a skill rating can be entered by the pitboss. The one I remember specifically had three options labeled as "beginner, normal, and skilled". the pitboss could choose one of the three and by default it was just "normal". They would also enter a speed component "slow, medium, fast" which was computed into the formula to determine the rating and comp.
link to original post

I've used 3 different player tracking systems. All 3 had a skill level option, although it was not used by us at any point. There is no doubt most software has it as an option to use, but I've never heard of anyone actually using it in my 16 years in the business.


ZCore13

edit: formatting

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: DRich

Quote: UP84

I doubt very much if there's a skill rating involved.

I can tell you that on the table tracking systems that I have developed and worked on, a skill rating can be entered by the pitboss. The one I remember specifically had three options labeled as "beginner, normal, and skilled". the pitboss could choose one of the three and by default it was just "normal". They would also enter a speed component "slow, medium, fast" which was computed into the formula to determine the rating and comp.
link to original post

I've used 3 different player tracking systems. All 3 had a skill level option, although it was not used by us at any point. There is no doubt most software has it as an option to use, but I've never heard of anyone actually using it in my 16 years in the business.


ZCore13
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Thanks.