SCORE

IF memory serves me correctly, Don S stated that SCORE is the main barometer one should consider. Perhaps the only?

Peter Griffin came up with BC Bet Correlation, PE Playing Efficiency, and IC Insurance long before SCORE was developed by Don S. This was based of EoR Effect of Removal. Who developed EoR?

I compare SCORE, Session Win %, and Win Rate from CV Data sims before taking a count strategy for a test drive on Verite.

My purpose is NOT to start a count debate. But wrap up some work I've been doing for a long time. Hopefully forever.

So Don and Norm decided on RPC a/k/a FELT and stayed with it for decades. Both say they never found anything better. They must have settled on this count because of BC, PE, IC because Don S had not yet developed SCORE. No?

That being said, I always try to get similar BC, PE, and IC for sim comparisons.

The new count has a high SCORE. It offers a higher percentage of large bets. PE is the same as FELT. IC is higher with Ace side count. But BC is sub par.

Should a line be drawn for BC? If so, where?

Accoding to SCORE there is little to no point in assigning a tag to the 2 in the single deck straight up game.

Byyce Carlson assigned tags to 4,5,6 the doubles 2,3,7.

Hi Opt I counts 3,4,5,6 vs 10.
Hi Opt Ii counts and then aide counts the 7.

RPC tags on 3,4,5,6 doubles 2,7.

If you assigned a higher tag to the 2 than 7? SCORE declines.
Reverse it and SCORE increases.

So, one question comes to mind. If Mr. Griffin started his research and calculations based on single deck, how is it he came up with such a high EOR for the 2?

With all respect meant, what changes in the multi deck multi player game where HiLo gives equal tags to the 2 and 5?

Accoding to SCORE there is little to no point in assigning a tag to the 2 in the single deck straight up game.

Byyce Carlson assigned tags to 4,5,6 the doubles 2,3,7.

Hi Opt I counts 3,4,5,6 vs 10.
Hi Opt Ii counts and then side counts the 7.

RPC tags on 3,4,5,6 doubles 2,7.

If you assigned a higher tag to the 2 than 7? SCORE declines.
Reverse it and SCORE increases.

So, one question comes to mind. If Mr. Griffin started his research and calculations based on single deck, how is it he came up with such a high EOR for the 2?

With all respect meant, what changes in the multi deck multi player game where HiLo gives equal tags to the 2 and 5?

I am sorry you haven't gotten much response to this moses. There just aren't many players that play the single deck game in North Nevada than 'might' benefit from it as you could.

Of course the 2 and 5 aren't equal. Everyone understands that. You are giving up a little bit in the name of simplicity, because that is how the shoe games are beaten.

If you want a count that is perfect or close to perfect there is one out there. I forget the name. Somebody's ultimate or super ultimate count. I think there is a different value for every card. lol

Something else you are missing with your 2 vs 5 analogy. We are not looking for either the 2's or the 5's. We are looking for the 10's and Aces. Offsetting the 2's and 5's (and other low cards) only helps us identify when there is an abundance of 10's and aces. That is when we win! Mostly because of increased blackjack @ 3:2 payoff. Also a little more success on the (8), 9, 10, 11 double downs.

Thanks for response KJ. I wasnt expectong a ton of response. Just a few veterans perspective is enough.

In terms of simplicity, wouldnt it be more prudent to tag the 5 at 2 and 2 at 0? You're correct I dont play multi. Just a question to get your point of view.

Thanks.

Quote: moses

Thanks for response KJ. I wasnt expectong a ton of response. Just a few veterans perspective is enough.

In terms of simplicity, wouldnt it be more prudent to tag the 5 at 2 and 2 at 0? You're correct I dont play multi. Just a question to get your point of view.

Thanks.

Well it wouldn't be for me! lol. I play a level 1 count and 5@2, 2@0, everything else at +/-1 wouldn't be a level 1 count. :/

But if it would be prudent for you aren't there already counts that do that? I mean you are the expert on all the different counts. I would have thought you would have found one to suit you be now. I think you are looking for perfection. A count at maximum betting and playing efficiency. I am the opposite. I just see little value in that, so you are definitely asking the wrong person.

I dont think a perfect count exists. At least that someone could employ.

Ever notice how a tennis player looks down at his racquet whenever he is losing? That is me with a count after losing a session. lol.

This one is so simple and has a high SCORE. It's like seeking permission from Don S and other competitors to drop the 2. Mine involves half pointa. So I posed the question to you thinking in terms of your elimation process.

As a proponent of level 1 counts and hi-lo in particular, I have always had the position that for most players, anything else quickly becomes overkill. Maybe a level 2, but after that it is sharply diminished return for the effort.

But, I have always made the exception, saying for 99.9%. Because most have access to shoe games and a little double deck. Moses, you are that .1%, because you play where you play and single deck games. So I have come to accept your obsession with finding a higher quality count. I mean a little higher playing efficiency, and you could cut down spread to almost, not quite, but almost, nothing, which would be huge in single deck, I would think.

The only thing is at this point, I fear you might be throwing away a really good match for you, the near perfect mate, someone reliable, a decent person, inside and out, loyal and loving, who has served you well, in search of that perfection that may or may not even exist.

For me Hi-lo is my perfect mate because I play mostly 6 deck games with a little bit of double deck. I can and do even expand a little when playing double deck and track aces separately. heck, sometimes I even track another card unintentionally, almost by mistake. say a player draws a couple 5's, and I have a 5 and dealer turns over a 5. Mental note. Hey the 5's are depleted which is a good thing!

I honestly don't know what your looking for? is it about making money as it is for me, or is it some kind of quest for the holy grail (perfect count).

My count simply takes Wong Halves and give the tag of the 2 to the 7. This way Im only counting two half point tags. The 5 and 9. SCORE is actually higher forr my game.

Now Bosox said a long time ago the one must play aggressive. For most, it's a matter of dropping back on TC. I wanted a higher percentage of large bets and a count that could gain more mileage out of a dealer with pen right on the cusp.

So I dropped the 3 to .5 and added .5 to the 6. I know Ive lost you all by now.

But I thank you for all the wisdom. I can incorporate some of that into my game. I know it's not much use to you. Pretty much what I do is in direct opposition to what multi players employ.

All that being said. I am really on my own island in terms of blackjack. Im not trying to reinvent any wheels. Just competing in an ever changing game.

So I might write something that seems totally against what the 99.9%. of the multi world does. Ive done my research. My purpose has never been and never will be to change anyones mind. The response may or may not lead me to rethink or go back and research something again.

For example, Bosox is a nut on Insurance. It's also the #1item on Don S Ill 18. So I spent a couple weeks designing my entire game around insurance. That was a little extreme.😄

Freighter is a huge advocate of Wong Halves with Ace side count. Hi Opt II side counts the 7. So I took from both. Drop the 2 and gave the 7 a 1 tag.

KJ talks about the extreme swings which comes from large bets. So I dug into View charts to see where I could minimize volatility and maximize returns to know when to go slightly beyond casino tolerance.

T3 talked about deck compositions which I find very interesting. Tarzan employs a column strategy. Similar to what I did for years. But you really need pen from the Thorp days in order to capitalize. Thats why they changed the game.

Quote: moses

All that being said. I am really on my own island in terms of blackjack. Im not trying to reinvent any wheels. Just competing in an ever changing game.

So I might write something that seems totally against what the 99.9%. of the multi world does. Ive done my research. My purpose has never been and never will be to change anyones mind. The response may or may not lead me to rethink or go back and research something again.

For example, Bosox is a nut on Insurance. It's also the #1item on Don S Ill 18. So I spent a couple weeks designing my entire game around insurance. That was a little extreme.😄

Freighter is a huge advocate of Wong Halves with Ace side count. Hi Opt II side counts the 7. So I took from both. Drop the 2 and gave the 7 a 1 tag.

KJ talks about the extreme swings which comes from large bets. So I dug into View charts to see where I could minimize volatility and maximize returns to know when to go slightly beyond casino tolerance.

T3 talked about deck compositions which I find very interesting. Tarzan employs a column strategy. Similar to what I did for years. But you really need pen from the Thorp days in order to capitalize. Thats why they changed the game.

Interesting stuff Moses, nice post.

Quote: moses

IF memory serves me correctly, Don S stated that SCORE is the main barometer one should consider. Perhaps the only?

Peter Griffin came up with BC Bet Correlation, PE Playing Efficiency, and IC Insurance long before SCORE was developed by Don S. This was based of EoR Effect of Removal. Who developed EoR?

I compare SCORE, Session Win %, and Win Rate from CV Data sims before taking a count strategy for a test drive on Verite.

My purpose is NOT to start a count debate. But wrap up some work I've been doing for a long time. Hopefully forever.

The desirability index DI is a more universal measure of game quality and allows comparison across a variety of games and methods. Don discusses DI in his book “Blackjack Attack” (page 186):

"I have christened this ratio the “Desirability Index” (DI) and have defined it, for the play all game, to be equal to one thousand times (for convenience of expression) the ratio of that game’s per-hand win rate to the per-hand standard deviation. Similarly, for the back-counted game, DI = 100 times the ratio of that game’s win rate per 100 hands to the s.d. per 100."

Thanks for input Mr. Eliot. DI are available with CV Data.

Quite often, I'm asking myself. So how is this a good deal? I fail to see the value of splitting in a no DAS straight up single deck game. For one thing, depending on dealer, it could shortrn pen even more.

There is no way to get 3.2 on the investment or double down. For the same dollar one has that opportinuty on the next round.
Therefore, I only split hands with positive results. That shinks the splitting field quite a bit. There is very little change SCORE or DI for this move.

Ftom what I've read, splitting was generated back in the 60's with a calculator. I wonder if the single deck games were DAS when this was factored in. 🤔

Quote: kewlj

I honestly don't know what your looking for? is it about making money as it is for me, or is it some kind of quest for the holy grail (perfect count).

I had to think about this question for a couple days. If I were to sum it up into one word? The word would be conviction. Not perfection.

I dont need the money. But I like the rewards a well rounded disciplined game can offer. Easier said, than done in my neck of the woods.😊

The 60-40 rule - rules.

I completed my study on splts. There are a couple of close calls.

Bosox, I'd like to get your opinion on what you would do. And whoever else is compelled to answer. I sent a couple of emails to other highly asture players.

50k hands or around 1 year of play.

No DAS. Out of 30 hands split the results are 16 wins 13 loss
1 tie. If you hit, the result is 8 wins 7 loss. Would you hit or split?

As God as my witness Im not trying to stir up anything. Depending on your answer, I might have 1 or 2 more scenarios. If that's okay.

Quote: moses

I completed my study on splts. There are a couple of close calls.

Bosox, I'd like to get your opinion on what you would do. And whoever else is compelled to answer. I sent a couple of emails to other highly asture players.

50k hands or around 1 year of play.

No DAS. Out of 30 hands split the results are 16 wins 13 loss
1 tie. If you hit, the result is 8 wins 7 loss. Would you hit or split?

As God as my witness Im not trying to stir up anything. Depending on your answer, I might have 1 or 2 more scenarios. If that's okay.

Come on Moses thinking that the results of 30 splits are anything meaningful as an example is ridiculous. You play single-deck games with your own developed column count and you are looking for answers, why? Just use your own index plays and trust yourself. I am the wrong guy to be asking about single-deck games which I have not played for over 30 years.

Sometimes a person works so hard they cant think anymore. That example was 1 of 10. After sleepng on it, I will hit. Split on large bets. The win percentage jumps to 60% but very few plays.

Conviction not perfection.

T3 wrote alot about deck compositions. But I think he was using it for Spanish 21. The problem was he was trying to apply it to shoe games which created a stir.

It seems it had something to do with the count of Aces factored in differently than Hi Opt II required. Anyone remember? Is he out there?

Out of respect to OnceDear and Billryan that no more attention is drawn to another thread, I comment here.

The 2 is as irelevant as the 8. That being said, those who built a library of old blackjack books now have plenty of kindling.😰

I do not believe a 6 deck shoe can be beat on a consistent basis.

So why not run a sim and view results?

Im sure results would offer a decent SCORE. But in the shoe game, one is competing against themselves. Extremely volatile. Don S is a black and white guy? Probably would've been one helluva coach.

But when an individual looks inside themself it's usually gray.

Prove me wrong? Pick your count(s). You may decide to run more than one sim to compare.

Now play out at least 10k hands exactly the way you think you will in a casino on Verite. Norm will say " too small sample size" and he is correct. But true casino play is even smaller. No?

The most important factor in the game is you. Practice is you finding your game. Casino play is merely an extension of practice.

Quote: moses

I do not believe a 6 deck shoe can be beat on a consistent basis.

That's ok, I don't believe in Santa Claus.

We all have our beliefs. Sometimes they're backed by facts (Fat man doesn't deliver presents to every child in the world on one night), sometimes they aren't (6 deck shoe can't be beat consistently).

Quote: sabre

That's ok, I don't believe in Santa Claus.

We all have our beliefs. Sometimes they're backed by facts (Fat man doesn't deliver presents to every child in the world on one night), sometimes they aren't (6 deck shoe can't be beat consistently).

No. It's the parents. Eventually, the child figures it out.

But in 6 deck, by the time one figures it out? It may be too late.