What states CANNOT back you off of BJ?

I do agree with MDawg that they would try to claim disruption to their system.

I don't think that would work.

The response would be that simply conducting an activity that is legal in which they lose money is not by definition disruptive (card counting would be included then)

And that in Uston, the decision stated that advantage play is not a reason to eject someone from Casino and that use of other players cards is an advantage play (to be supported by plenty of published work) which falls under comp hustling.

There are a number of other legal arguments. I obviously did the research because of my interest in fighting.

Who will win, who will lose? Won't know unless Inor someone else does the challenge.

Quote: GMan

If all this story is true and there is no reason to believe the contrary.
You are flat betting $20K at table games and they back you off when you obviously do not show any sign or proof of advantage play...
The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid of the variance you can generate.

Look at it this way, for every 6 players BJ table they can fill, say at $50 min bets and about 60 rounds per hour. With poor players giving the casino say 1% advantage, this table is worth about $50 x 6 players x 60 rounds x 1% = $180/hour minus overhead like pit boss and dealer hourly wage, lights, etc.

Now, your $20K/hand play has a Standard Deviation of $23K or $230K per 100 rounds (say an hour).
If you play them for 9 hours in a weekend with 0.26% disadvantage.
Your expectation is to lose $46,800 with a Standard Deviation of $690,000
If you're only a "little lucky" and end up half a Standard Deviation from the mean to the right... You will win $298,200 of their money.
Not taking their overhead expenses into consideration, they will have to grind that 6 players table at $50 each for just a little over 1650 hours ....or 10 such tables for 165 hours each.
This is WHY they are afraid of you! Someone upstairs with a suit and a tie says "what if this guy wins $500K and never come back?" Five seconds later you can hear the sound of their knees shaking under the table.

This is however "little boss looking for short term results" fallacy. They certainly know they will win in the long run, but they prefer smoother results and good looking clean papers at the end of the week/month. This is the type of place that should just put a smaller max bet sign on their tables. Most joints like to show they are in... when obviously they are a bunch of losers.
Next place you go, just flat bet them for $5K, the comps will almost come at the same rate and they will be happy with the variance...

First, when I commented earlier in this thread, I was not aware of the limits the OP was betting, or I wouldn't have commented at all. Play at those limits are simply out of my wheelhouse and knowledge.

Second, great post by Gman. it would SEEM to me that if the casino is sweating this action because of possible short term variance going against them, that, this casino and those making the decision are simply in the wrong business. THIS is what the casino business is about. They should want as much action as they can put through at the advantage they have.

Now, I can understand some small rinky dink casino refusing five figure wagers that are too much for them. But Wynn, Caesars? Again, that just seems to contradict the business that they are in, IMO,

Quote: MDawg

Yes exactly. If a casino, or any private establishment wants you out, believe me they will find a way so long as it is not constitutionally discriminatory.

I gotta believe this to be true. They may not call it an 86, or back off, or trespass, but I believe if they want you off the premises, you are going to be off the premises.

Dark may be correct that it might be technically illegal, but that would be figured out years later after a lengthy and expensive court battle.

The smelly bum ousted is just... gone! And so would I be, showered and all, if the casino wants me gone!

Quote: kewlj

First, when I commented earlier in this thread, I was not aware of the limits the OP was betting, or I wouldn't have commented at all. Play at those limits are simply out of my wheelhouse and knowledge.

Second, great post by Gman. it would SEEM to me that if the casino is sweating this action because of possible short term variance going against them, that, this casino and those making the decision are simply in the wrong business. THIS is what the casino business is about. They should want as much action as they can put through at the advantage they have.

Now, I can understand some small rinky dink casino refusing five figure wagers that are too much for them. But Wynn, Caesars? Again, that just seems to contradict the business that they are in, IMO,

Agree. Why would ANY casino have table limits at a -EV game if the are unhappy when someone bets those amounts? It is just so stupid.....

As per the part of the discussion about New Jersey banning players for other reasons, MDawg is partially right, in that they can do that. I have heard of several AP's that have been barred for 'creating a disturbance'. They can say that about almost anything.

My guess is this kind of charge wouldn't hold up in court as in a casino everything taped. And the casino knows that. They also know few AP's would fight that. I mean, you hire a lawyer and spend tens of thousands of dollars fighting it and what do you win. You are unbanned, but casino will still employ the countermeasures that are legally allowed, which still ends your AP play ability. (shades of Ken Uston....what have you won?)

So basically if a casino bans you on a made up charge of "creating a disturbance", they are sending a signal that we aren't going to allow you to play. It is sort of a bully tactic and I don't think it occurs often. Mostly they just go to the counter-measures that they are allowed to employ.

Quote: SOOPOO

I gotta believe this to be true. They may not call it an 86, or back off, or trespass, but I believe if they want you off the premises, you are going to be off the premises.

Dark may be correct that it might be technically illegal, but that would be figured out years later after a lengthy and expensive court battle.

The smelly bum ousted is just... gone! And so would I be, showered and all, if the casino wants me gone!

Wow, I actually think we are all on the same page.

Yay!

Quote: MDawg

Yes exactly. If a casino, or any private establishment wants you out, believe me they will find a way so long as it is not constitutionally discriminatory.

This is simply not the case in NJ.

Casinos are pseudo-public places. There is a very limited number of circumstances where they can 86 you.

Homeless people will hang out at slot machines all the time. Security will come around and wake them up, saying they aren’t allowed to sleep there, but they can’t kick them out.

Something just occurred to me. I used to watch this blackjack player, he was a regular, who played with nothing but five thousand dollar chips. This was back when this casino's limit was 5K at blackjack. That's all he would bet - 5K chips, no more no less.

Now I don't know if he was a special limits player or not, but sometimes he would bet one hand, other times two, others times three. Each hand for exactly five grand.

No one bothered him, and from what I observed he was not counting, but - Pookky, when you play blackjack are you always betting just ONE hand, to table limit, or sometimes more than one hand, to table limit? If you sometimes occupy more than one circle for these table limit BJ bets, that would not be straight flat betting.

Quote: MDawg

Something just occurred to me. I used to watch this blackjack player, he was a regular, who played with nothing but five thousand dollar chips. This was back when this casino's limit was 5K at blackjack. That's all he would bet - 5K chips, no more no less.

Now I don't know if he was a special limits player or not, but sometimes he would bet one hand, other times two, others times three. Each hand for exactly five grand.

No one bothered him, and from what I observed he was not counting, but - Pookky, when you play blackjack are you always betting just ONE hand, to table limit, or sometimes more than one hand, to table limit? If you sometimes occupy more than one circle for these table limit BJ bets, that would not be straight flat betting.

The Stephen King mist must be in the air.

I agree with this as well

Quote: SOOPOO

Agree. Why would ANY casino have table limits at a -EV game if the are unhappy when someone bets those amounts? It is just so stupid.....

So you clearly said -EV and I am going to give a comment about +EV card counting play. But with card counting it is pretty general knowledge that you cannot spread to the table max amounts and last for more than a few rounds. Most high end aggressive counters won't go more than half table max. With essentially means that for card counters the table max posted is not table max tolerated. lol

And yes, I know, we have a guy on this forum that among his claims that seem unbelievable to me is that when he was a blackjack card counter a few years back, he would spread to table max. Just ANOTHER comment that makes him not credible in my eyes.

Quote: Pookky

Was literally told:
“table games made the call, that you were perfect BJ strategy player and no real advantage to the casino on that game.”

I was pretty much told the samething here in Reno except the game was UTH! I was informing players what to do in given situations and the casino didn't like it. So they let me continue to play but I can't offer any advice to any player or I will no longer be permitted to play UTH. Coming from playing live poker, I'm use to the one player to a hand rule anyways.

MDawg also makes a good point about playing more than one spot. In blackjack card counting the term spreading is about the differece in the amount you wager when the count and advantage is neutral and negative and the amount you wager when the count is positive and the player has the advantage. Most often this is done by simply betting more, An example would be spreading $25-$100.

But there is horizontal spreading where a player might bet one spot of xxx in neutral and negative counts and 3 spots of the same amount at positive, advantageous accounts. At lower limits this can be effective, but at higher limits that are more closely hawked, this too will be detected before long.

The OP says he isn't or wasn't counting at all, so I take him at his word this was not the case with his situation. He did however state that sometimes he spreads to 3 hands to attempt to change the cards. Upon doing this a casino /surveillance first though might be that the player is spreading horizontally. But you would think at those limits they would check it out with a skill check before taking any drastic action. And you would think the action they would take would be to limit the player to one spot. That is a frequent counter measure at lower limits.

Quote: kewlj

MDawg also makes a good point about playing more than one spot. In blackjack card counting the term spreading is about the differece in the amount you wager when the count and advantage is neutral and negative and the amount you wager when the count is positive and the player has the advantage. Most often this is done by simply betting more, An example would be spreading $25-$100.

But there is horizontal spreading where a player might bet one spot of xxx in neutral and negative counts and 3 spots of the same amount at positive, advantageous accounts. At lower limits this can be effective, but at higher limits that are more closely hawked, this too will be detected before long.

The OP says he isn't or wasn't counting at all, so I take him at his word this was not the case with his situation. He did however state that sometimes he spreads to 3 hands to attempt to change the cards. Upon doing this a casino /surveillance first though might be that the player is spreading horizontally. But you would think at those limits they would check it out with a skill check before taking any drastic action. And you would think the action they would take would be to limit the player to one spot. That is a frequent counter measure at lower limits.

Agreed.

Unfortunately Casino staff are...

1) lazy! What you suggested takes work.

2) egotistical and self-serving. If they assume you are a card counter how could they be wrong?

That's what usually trips them up.

EDIT:. I should add that humans make too many assumptions based on their own lives.

Security guards making $10 an hour may assume anyone risking $20,000 a hand must be a professional.

Quote: darkoz

Agreed.

Unfortunately Casino staff are...

1) lazy! What you suggested takes work.

2) egotistical and self-serving. If they assume you are a card counter how could they be wrong?

That's what usually trips them up.

EDIT:. I should add that humans make too many assumptions based on their own lives.

Security guards making $10 an hour may assume anyone risking $20,000 a hand must be a professional.

Security guards and security Personnel make absolutely no decisions about players being backed off or playing with any kind of advantage and if they're going to get banned or not. They simply follow the requests and orders of the casino personnel in management and floor supervision. As far as enforcing the rules regulations and laws regarding disorderly conduct and everything else it doesn't matter if they're playing with $25 or $25,000. At least it does not with the brand that I work for or worked with in the past.

As far as the $10 an hour, maybe at some of the smaller casinos but security starts at $18 an hour entry level with the brand that I work for. Average security is well over $20 an hour and that's the lower-level personnel.

Quote: kewlj

The OP says he isn't or wasn't counting at all, so I take him at his word this was not the case with his situation. He did however state that sometimes he spreads to 3 hands to attempt to change the cards. Upon doing this a casino /surveillance first though might be that the player is spreading horizontally.

I missed it where he said he sometimes will spread to 3 hands.

This might also explain. I still think he's been flagged, even if wrongfully so and that's what's causing his problems.

Quote: Marcusclark66

Security guards and security Personnel make absolutely no decisions about players being backed off or playing with any kind of advantage and if they're going to get banned or not. They simply follow the requests and orders of the casino personnel in management and floor supervision. As far as enforcing the rules regulations and laws regarding disorderly conduct and everything else it doesn't matter if they're playing with $25 or $25,000. At least it does not with the brand that I work for or worked with in the past.

As far as the $10 an hour, maybe at some of the smaller casinos but security starts at $18 an hour entry level with the brand that I work for. Average security is well over $20 an hour and that's the lower-level personnel.

Well, whomever makes these decisions is who I refer to.

As for $10 an hour I simply pulled that out of thin air not knowing how much security guards make.

I will defer to your knowledge on that one

My point is making small regular wages to some people they can't imagine who would make astronomical wagers like $20,000 except it must be nefarious or professional in nature

Quote: AxelWolf

I missed it where he said he sometimes will spread to 3 hands.

This might also explain. I still think he's been flagged, even if wrongfully so and that's what's causing his problems.

. He mentioned he rarely bet more spots, and it was not in necessarily a positive count. He said it was when he was chasing losses.

Quote: kewlj

He did however state that sometimes he spreads to 3 hands to attempt to change the cards.

I only throw in 1 extra hand when I lose like 4+ hands in a row. And always flat bet.

Quote: MDawg

Pookky, when you play blackjack are you always betting just ONE hand, to table limit, or sometimes more than one hand, to table limit? If you sometimes occupy more than one circle for these table limit BJ bets, that would not be straight flat betting.

I am playing ONE hand max bet, TWO hands when I lose 4+ hands in a row.

Quote: Pookky

I am playing ONE hand max bet, TWO hands when I lose 4+ hands in a row.

I'm not a card counter but isn't it possible that his spread after 4 consecutive losses may be coinciding with high counts?

Card counters win more often after the "bad cards" leave the deck.

Bad cards coming out are what make for more losses

In theory, his losing streaks may be caused by counts going positive and his sudden spread to other hands after four losses coincide with a stronger count.

A roundabout way of card counting that's unintentional. Might also explain some of his positive variance?

Quote: darkoz

I'm not a card counter but isn't it possible that his spread after 4 consecutive losses may be coinciding with high counts?

Card counters win more often after the "bad cards" leave the deck.

Bad cards coming out are what make for more losses

In theory, his losing streaks may be caused by counts going positive and his sudden spread to other hands after four losses coincide with a stronger count.

A roundabout way of card counting that's unintentional. Might also explain some of his positive variance?

Sure that is possible. We all know the dealer must play by a set of rules. Hit 16 and below, stand on 17. So lets talk about the very small sample size of 4 rounds in a row in which the dealer win.

It COULD be that the dealer dealt himself some stiffs, 13's, 14's, 15's. which would have been made up of small cards, and then hit that stiff hand as required and drew a yet another small card to make his hand. In this scenario after 4 rounds of this, or even 3 rounds, yes the count would have been rising and if he then spread to 2 or more hands he would have spread at a +count and +EV situation.

But it could have just as easily been the complete opposite. Suppose the dealer won 4 hands in a row because he dealt himself a bunch of 2 card 20's and a blackjack. At that point if the player spreads to a second hand he is spreading to a negative situation and count.

So you can't assume either and most likely a combination of the two resulting in a mostly neutral type count.

Even if it was scenario #1, and the player unknowingly spread to a second hand at just the point that the count went positive and game +EV, that kind of a spread, spreading the same max amount to a second hand, is a 1-2 spread. That is not enough to overcome house advantages long-term at either a 6 deck shoe game or a double deck game. (the DD game would be closer but still not enough).

Just for clarification I would like to ask the OP if he plays double deck or 6 deck?

I just have a really hard time thinking high end casinos like Wynn and Caesars wouldn't run a skill evaluation and be sure that such a high end player was definitively spreading to that second hand at +EV times and that he was in fact playing a winning +EV game. BEFORE any kind of countermeasure. Just to assume he is spreading to two hands, he must be counting without checking it out goes against everything I know about casinos, and especially at the higher end. Casinos don't want to drive a way a higher player unless they are damn well sure. Driving away a high end player incorrectly like that is in complete contradiction to what the business model is and damn well should result in someone, someone fairly high up being shown the unemployment line.

Quote: darkoz

Card counters win more often after the "bad cards" leave the deck.

Bad cards coming out are what make for more losses

?

Barely. The four hand swings will go in either direction almost entirely due to variance.

Believe it or not the percentage of hands won vs lost barely change whether the count is high or low. The player will lose over 50% of their hands either way. The advantage will come almost entirely from a higher proportion of the hands paying 3:2 instead of even money, I believe there may be a slight increase in doubles or ev from doubles.

Pookky,

Baccarat, one bankroll - one table limit bet. So at Baccarat you truly are flat betting, and even if you were not flat betting, I have never experienced or heard of anyone banned from Baccarat for legitimate straight play. I win decent amounts at Baccarat consistently and no one has ever said a word to me.

Blackjack - you are not truly flat betting if you sometimes play two hands each to the limit. You are actually utilizing a 2X spread. This really isn't that advantageous. Put it this way, when I was effectively banned from blackjack (forced to endure a maximum 3X spread) I stopped playing blackjack entirely until the 3X limit handicap was lifted, a couple of years later. No one would consider a 2X spread to be a good thing.

However, you are playing to table max, which draws attention, and table max every hand draws a lot of attention. Let me ask you - you say you have been lucky. I believe you said lucky for about a year. How much have you won in a year? The answer to that number might explain all the hullaboo when combined even with a weak 2X spread.

You don't necessarily have to be "winning with the count" to get banned, if your spread is resulting in winning all the big bets and losing all the small(er) ones. Their analysis in deciding whether to give us the boot isn't always that scientific when it comes to blackjack. A 2X spread still sounds so weak, that it's hard to believe that the casino would worry about it, but it might...if you are winning enough, and if you are winning most of the 2X bets.

Quote: kewlj

Just for clarification I would like to ask the OP if he plays double deck or 6 deck?

6DBJ because I like the option to surrender.
And I always surrender.

Quote: MDawg

How much have you won in a year?

Seven figures plus

Well see, that could be the answer right there. That's a lot to win compared with your average bet. You are altering your bet some, even if only 2X, and you are winning heavily, so most especially if you are winning a lot more of your 40K hands versus your 20K hands, that might be enough for them to decide to write you off. It's not justified by any sort of card counting analysis I may see, but in their minds, it might seem valid.

Quote: MDawg

Well see, that could be the answer right there. That's a lot to win compared with your average bet. You are altering your bet some, even if only 2X, and you are winning heavily, so most especially if you are winning a lot more of your 40K hands versus your 20K hands, that might be enough for them to decide to write you off. It's not justified by any sort of card counting analysis I may see, but in their minds, it might seem valid.

"might be enough for them to decide to write you off"

Ok, we are not talking about El Cortez, or South Point or Jokers Wild in Henderson, or Lucky Club in North Las Vegas or any number of other rinky dink, small time, over paranoid places who have no one with a clue working for them, so they adopt a "throw out everything, baby with the bath water" type policy. We are talking about the top high end casinos on the Las Vegas strip, Wynn and Caesars.

And we just had this exact conversation about you (Mdawg) and your baccarat play in which you argued the exact opposite position. And that involved one of the VERY SAME casinos, Wynn.

Let me refresh your memory if I can. I and others said, there was no way they would just continue to allow you win for years, comping you high end comps on top. You argued that if you were playing a -EV game they would and would just assume the winning to be luck. (t)eliot even weighed in as an expert witness based on his experience as being one of the expert type people called in to make that decision.

And now you are arguing the exact opposite, that the OP, a high end player, betting table max, who says he is not doing anything to play with an advantage, would NOT be allowed to continue to play a losing (-EV) game, just because he is winning short term. That instead they would make some sort of rash, on the spot decision to kick out a "whale" on a gut decision. Argument makes no sense.

In Blackjack, for card counting there is an evaluation process. It used to involve a person assigned to count down the decks as the player played to determine if the player was moving money, as it is called, with the count. In this case that would be spreading to a second hand. Now a days they use technology instead of a person counting down. They have programs, but it still takes a bit of a sample size, about 30 minutes to be reasonably sure. This happens to be why card counters play short sessions, so an evaluation can't really be completed in one sitting.

And that 30 minutes, minimum, that would not be long enough to evaluate a whale, a max table player, because a casino is going to want to be absolutely sure they are correct, before 86ing a whale. And I don't know the OP's situation, but often times these whales have a wife or girlfriend who is dumping mega bucks on slots or some other high casino advantage game. I mean they just don't spur of the moment, rash decision 86 these people. It goes against what a high end casino is all about.

Now I understand you more. You just like to argue against reality.

This is what happened to him. Deal with it - come up with an explanation - but don't sit there over and over saying, "it can't bayy" without coming up with anything more than that.

In any case, he was playing blackjack. I've had issues with the casino too, at blackjack.

Quote: MDawg

Now I understand you more. You just like to argue against reality.

This is what happened to him. Deal with it - come up with an explanation - but don't sit there over and over saying, "it can't bayy" without coming up with anything more than that.

In any case, he was playing blackjack. I've had issues with the casino too, at blackjack.

wait a minute....I LIKE TO ARGUE AGAINST REALITY?? I think you have THAT backwards. Everything you claim defies math and reality to various extents.

But I don't want to argue with you. I thought we were having a fairly respectful and friendly discussion. We are all trying to figure out what occurred in the OP's situation, because as it is written seems to not make sense. I am in no way suggesting he isn't telling the truth. Just trying to figure out what is going on.

One of the possibilities I was thinking is that because he mentioned wanting to play over the Chinese New Year ,that maybe he was Chinese or Asian, and not wanting to stereotype had a very common Asian type name, like a "Kim Lee" or something and possible there was a case of mistaken identity or mixing up with someone else of similar name. But any high end casino like Wynn, not doing their homework on that and/or making that kind of mistake, would be very unacceptable.

I believe I have told this story more than once, but when I used to play blackjack heavily I'd vary my bet from table min to table max during the brief period that I was really clocking them for a lot. I say brief, because it was only after a few trips that I kept winning like that they stepped in to handicap me to a 3X spread. They even said that they didn't think that I was counting (the words he used were actually stronger than that, he said we "know" you're not counting), although actually I was, still they just didn't like that I was winning so much, so fast and winning all of my big bets, many of which were double downs.

So there's a case of a guy winning the big bets and losing the tiny ones and getting shut down even though they "knew" that counting wasn't involved. I agree, it's not quite the same as what Pookky is describing as his spread is only 2X, but if he too is winning all or most of the bigger bets (which are $40K not exactly peanuts), that might be enough to bother them, justified or not. And again, we're talking blackjack.

Or, if you're saying that something else entirely might be involved, okay, maybe, yes, but we don't have that "something else" before us - we just have Pookky's story as stated.

What's interesting though, is that two years later when my blackjack ban was lifted I would STILL occasionally go into the exact same casino and play heads up blackjack pretty much the same way, win twenty grand or even more in less than an hour, and just leave. By then though I was playing so much baccarat with up and down results that maybe they figured just leave him alone, he'll lose it back at baccarat. Again, I am referring to my play from a decade or so ago. Back then I had a lot of wild swings at baccarat.

Still, no one has ever bothered me with reference to baccarat. The worst that has happened is that some suit has come out of nowhere to watch me closely, but no one has ever said anything.

Quote: MDawg

I believe I have told this story more than once, but when I used to play blackjack heavily I'd vary my bet from table min to table max during the brief period that I was really clocking them for a lot. I say brief, because it was only after a few trips that I kept winning like that they stepped in to handicap me to a 3X spread. They even said that they didn't think that I was counting (the words he used were actually stronger than that, he said we "know" you're not counting), although actually I was, still they just didn't like that I was winning so much, so fast and winning all of my big bets, many of which were double downs.

Just as a point of reference, a casino personnel backing off or 86ing a player, never ever says "you are counting" or "we believe you are counting". I say never ever, I should more accurately say no case that I have heard of.

I think they are afraid of legal action. It would be an accusation that while not illegal, if the player said "well i am not counting" and sued them, they might have to prove and that becomes difficult, even though everything on tape.

I mean I am not a lawyer. You ARE you claim, so while I am not explaining this well, you may understand, they are just setting themselves up for extra trouble by making such an accusation. They almost always use alternative friendly very vague terms. "You are too good for us" "Management decision" etc. All that kind of 'code' garbage.

Well what's interesting is that when that happened, and I was not a lawyer at that time, is I tried the hard approach and complained to Gaming. I complained that they had no right to handicap me - that they could boot me but not handicap me. Also mailed a letter to the owner of all of those casinos stating the same. I don't know if my argument had merit or not, but I made it. Never got any response from anyone, not even an acknowledgment of complaint.

Then I just stayed away for a year, went back, and started doing the same at blackjack, and some pit boss came out of nowhere and told me to scram (basically).

Then I stayed away for ANOTHER year, and had started to play again, but by then I had become good friends with the same guy who had put the handicap on me two years prior, and he was even higher up in the organization, and he told me that he didn't care what I did. Literally, in pretty much those words. Ironically though, although I did go back to playing occasionally the same sort of blackjack, since then it's been at times mostly, and at other times almost all, baccarat for me.

I too am very friendly with a casino personnel guy that has been very beneficial to me. Think info about me, made it's way to me that shouldn't have. lol Didn't ask for it, but it occurred. lol

Now how we became friends is an interesting story (to me anyway). It was my second full year in Vegas and my rotation consisted mostly of Strip and downtown casinos (where as now I play very little strip). He worked the pit at one of the casinos in one of the two big strip chains.

So one day, I had a monster session.....monster single shoe really. I've written about it, I think on this forum. So it ended up being a 20k shoe, which was and still is a LOT for my stakes. I made 65k from blackjack that entire year, a third in that 20 minute shoe. lol So I ran from that casino, knowing I had drawn attention. I planned to stay away for a while anyway, sort of like treating it like a backoff.

So a few nights later, within a week, I was at a local bar that I sometimes frequented back then, just about a mile from that casino, when the guy that was in the pit that day walks in. He sees me and buys me a drink. I thank him and we begin talking. He told me he could not allow me to play on his shift again. Not his pit, not his shift. Said I could play if he isn't there. I agree. He bought me another drink on the way out (+EV) and we have been friends ever since. I have had him to my home on a number of occasions, including the night before my last heart surgery when we had a little gathering of friends.

We never discussed it, but I am guessing he took some heat that day, I racked up that big win. My whole approach is about playing mid-level limits and short session so that there aren't those really big wins that someone has to answer for. But sometimes you just win and win and win. What are you going to do. lol

Yes, the soft approach often works better than raising a fuss.

Quote: Pookky

If Missouri cannot ban BJ players, what are the best casinos to play there.
In regards to rules & high betting limits.
I don’t care if they use a continuous shuffling machine etc. as all I do is flat bet.

Bump.
Can anyone answer this?

As far as Missouri, are there even any casinos in the entire state that could book your 20-40K action per hand? You're not actually flat betting, at least not in BJ, you have a 2X spread it seems.

And anyway, just keep in mind that the consensus is that any casino may find a way to give you the boot if it so decides.

Would it make sense at this point for the OP( again taking his word he does no Advantage Play) to just go to another location and openly declare he want to wager $20k a hand with a spread to two hands if losing four in a row?

Such open -ev strategy at the limits he plays should have plenty of Vegas properties clamoring for him.

And the worst they would do is say no. But more than likely he will be treated as an honored guest. And they can easily follow his wagers if he is upfront about his expected play.

Sweet revenge is when the Wynn realizes what dopes they were!

Quote: darkoz

Would it make sense at this point for the OP( again taking his word he does no Advantage Play) to just go to another location and openly declare he want to wager $20k a hand with a spread to two hands if losing four in a row?

Such open -ev strategy at the limits he plays should have plenty of Vegas properties clamoring for him.

And the worst they would do is say no. But more than likely he will be treated as an honored guest. And they can easily follow his wagers if he is upfront about his expected play.

Sweet revenge is when the Wynn realizes what dopes they were!

I am very up front with all my hosts and tell them this and they’ve all verified my play as exactly as I’ve described. Doesn’t seem to help until I start winning and they cut me off from BJ.

I am not sure if I wrote about this here or elsewhere, but hosts and casino marketing do not make the decision to ban your play. That is done by casino floor personnel and their supervisors. A Director of Table Games for example, might be the one who makes that decision.

Your host might be able to go to bat for you to try to override a decision, but what you tell him when you first meet him is not exactly "passed on" to the powers that be. I assume he just yeah yeah yeahs you and tells you that everything will be beyootiful no matter what you tell him. My hosts have asked me how I win, and we've talked about it at length sometimes when I am sitting at the desk glowing in the bask of yet another day's victory, and I doubt anything I say to him is passed on to anyone. He's just making conversation and curious.

There was one day when I lost big, and the host actually texted me immediately and asked if I needed more credit. They seem to be THAT on it, these days. They're watching the big action. I had already won big across the street so I told him that and then after I paid off all the markers I sat down with him and he was astonished that I had lost, because he hadn't seen something like that before on his screen for me, I suppose. He said it looked like I had lost every hand, given the extent of the loss.

Then over the next couple weeks as I ended up more ahead than I was at any point prior, he asked about that too. But it was just for his own curiosity, not because he wanted to pass anything along to anyone. He did keep mentioning that if I hadn't lost that one day I would have really clobbered them.

Pookky... can’t a host find all this info out for you? It seems to me that any host would arrange for a 20k a hand player to basically go anywhere the player wanted? Right?

Quote: SOOPOO

Pookky... can’t a host find all this info out for you? It seems to me that any host would arrange for a 20k a hand player to basically go anywhere the player wanted? Right?

Hosts can help facilitate/communicate to casino ops etc. they have no final say.

I know of situations in corporate America where management has a grudge against an employee who is a whistleblower or who is suing the company in court. There are instances where the managers simply claim that the employee was disruptive by using "a tone of voice that scared people" or that the employee was verbally abusive to a security guard. In the cases I am aware of, they simply lied and said that these things happened, and then they escorted the employee off the premises and banned him permanently from returning. This is almost impossible to fight against in court because everyone testifying for the company would be expected to lie

This is probably the kind of tactic that MDawg is referring to when he says that casinos can eject you if they want to. They simply lie and say you were disruptive or say you spoke angrily to a security guard. Any policeman who subsequently showed up would ask you to leave the casino anyway, just to keep the peace.

Quote: gordonm888

I know of situations in corporate America where management has a grudge against an employee who is a whistleblower or who is suing the company in court. There are instances where the managers simply claim that the employee was disruptive by using "a tone of voice that scared people" or that the employee was verbally abusive to a security guard. In the cases I am aware of, they simply lied and said that these things happened, and then they escorted the employee off the premises and banned him permanently from returning. This is almost impossible to fight against in court because everyone testifying for the company would be expected to lie

This is probably the kind of tactic that MDawg is referring to when he says that casinos can eject you if they want to. They simply lie and say you were disruptive or say you spoke angrily to a security guard. Any policeman who subsequently showed up would ask you to leave the casino anyway, just to keep the peace.

Well, I can talk a bit about my trespassing case which was 2 years ago.

I know from my own case when it goes to court a number of documents get handed over

Surveillance has written a report

The security guard who escorts you out fills out paperwork giving his own description of what occurred.

The Casino in question claimed I had been trespassed on an earlier date (you get charged with trespassing upon your return not when they tell you to leave.)

I was not trespassed that day at all. In fact I had walked through the casino (the day they claim they trespassed me), saw a $20 minimum slot, stuck a bill in for fun and won $1800. The casino refused to pay me because they had information I was an advantage player. I demanded a DGE official to decide and lo and behold they paid me.

So 6 months later when they caught me with other players cards they claimed I was now trespassing due to that earlier incident.

Mind you, I received no trespassing paperwork even though I was waiting an hour for the DGE and subsequent W2G and payment so they had plenty of time to write something up. I signed a W2G. The DGE Had ruled in my favor and there was nothing I did that day to get kicked out. I simply won a cash Jackpot.

So it came down to the word of the security guard who claimed he verbally trespassed me

His testimony didn't match what he had written on the paperwork that day. The times on the paperwork didn't match the times on surveillance. There were so many inconsistencies that the case was dismissed.

So, yes they can and will lie but it's not too easy to get away with. At least for Casinos where everything is micromanaged

Here I was ready to cash out $800,000 and the casino said my chips are no good there.