Blackjack Team

Quote: theOmega623

And yeah, every counter knows playing at the El Cortez is a waste of time lol

I read this sentiment alot. I don't do myself any favors by arguing but what the hell.....I luv EC. Lol.

Quote: billryan

I just read a blast from the past on the perils of card counting teams. If you google Cigar Afficiando, blackjack teams, the story from the summer of 2003 pops up. I was playing pretty regularly back then and had been approached by someone in Vegas who said he had been watching me play and he was putting together a team. I was flattered but it seemed off. Then I read the article.

Could you provide a link billryan?

Is this a reference to disposable players? A lot of teams were doing that about that time. Just burning through players. :(

Much more beneficial to the team than individual players.

Quote: kewlj

I read this sentiment alot. I don't do myself any favors by arguing but what the hell.....I luv EC. Lol.

You count cards at El Cortez? I've personally never tried playing there because it's said by so many players to be such a quick back off.

Quote: theOmega623

You count cards at El Cortez? I've personally never tried playing there because it's said by so many players to be such a quick back off.

I have played there a few times. lol

Quote: kewlj

Could you provide a link billryan?

Is this a reference to disposable players? A lot of teams were doing that about that time. Just burning through players. :(

Much more beneficial to the team than individual players.

What exactly do you mean by burning through players? Like having them run an extremely large spread causing them to get backed off everywhere?

Quote: kewlj

I have played there a few times. lol

Next time I'm in Vegas I might make my way over to EC just to see how long I last lol

Quote: theOmega623

What exactly do you mean by burning through players? Like having them run an extremely large spread causing them to get backed off everywhere?

Well basically yes.

Basically the players played very aggressively for a short period. Maybe you get 6 months, maybe a year depending on the team and how much they travel. When the player started accumulating enough back offs that he had basically burned out his face, he was no longer an asset and they would move on to other players. Hence the "disposable players".

If you were a player just looking to make some money quickly, it was ok. If you had any interest in any amount of longevity, forget it, you would have a hard time playing after being burned out. So it depended on the players goals.

I was recruited by a pretty well know team a few years later than what billryan mentioned, maybe 2006 or 2007. As a young player, with a very small BR, it seemed like a good opportunity to make more money in a short time than I could on my own. Luckily for me, several players got a hold of me privately and advised against it and explained why. Declining was the best decision I made.

Quote: kewlj

Well basically yes.

Basically the players played very aggressively for a short period. Maybe you get 6 months, maybe a year depending on the team and how much they travel. When the player started accumulating enough back offs that he had basically burned out his face, he was no longer an asset and they would move on to other players. Hence the "disposable players".

If you were a player just looking to make some money quickly, it was ok. If you had any interest in any amount of longevity, forget it, you would have a hard time playing after being burned out. So it depended on the players goals.

I was recruited by a pretty well know team a few years later than what billryan mentioned, maybe 2006 or 2007. As a young player, with a very small BR, it seemed like a good opportunity to make more money in a short time than I could on my own. Luckily for me, several players got a hold of me privately and advised against it and explained why. Declining was the best decision I made.

Yeah that makes sense, especially if you're hitting the same general areas over and over. I consider my play somewhat aggressive and made the decision that I dont mind traveling around but I have not had problems with back offs. If you dont mind me asking, what type of spread do you generally use?

Quote: theOmega623

Next time I'm in Vegas I might make my way over to EC just to see how long I last lol

Here's what I will say about El Co. A lot of players, especially newer players look at getting backed off at EC as some sort of badge of honor. They think it confirms you are doing something right. That is just flat out silly. EC backs off any one varying bets. A player could be doing it backwards betting small in + EV situations and large in -EV situations and EC will back them off. It is the varying bets that they are looking for.

So I look at it the other way. If you can succeed there....you can succeed anywhere. Now, nobody can play there for long periods. No matter what you do, it has to be for very short sessions. If you are a local, many short sessions add up though. lol

And the real beauty about EC is they are independent. They don't subscribe to or contribute to databases. They just do their own thing based on mostly varying bets, but whatever the pit feels like that day. And maybe most important, nothing is permanent there. Backoffs mean you can't play any more right then. Tomorrow is another day. lol

But you have to be creative. Don't just spread one way, the same spread and ramp over and over.

Quote: theOmega623

If you dont mind me asking, what type of spread do you generally use?

Not going to answer publicly. Maybe I will PM you.

Quote: kewlj

Here's what I will say about El Co. A lot of players, especially newer players look at getting backed off at EC as some sort of badge of honor. They think it confirms you are doing something right. That is just flat out silly. EC backs off any one varying bets. A player could be doing it backwards betting small in + EV situations and large in -EV situations and EC will back them off. It is the varying bets that they are looking for.

So I look at it the other way. If you can succeed there....you can succeed anywhere. Now, nobody can play there for long periods. No matter what you do, it has to be for very short sessions. If you are a local, many short sessions add up though. lol

And the real beauty about EC is they are independent. They don't subscribe to or contribute to databases. They just do their own thing based on mostly varying bets, but whatever the pit feels like that day. And maybe most important, nothing is permanent there. Backoffs mean you can't play any more right then. Tomorrow is another day. lol

But you have to be creative. Don't just spread one way, the same spread and ramp over and over.

I absolutely agree. I try to do everything I can to avoid a back off as long as it doesnt cost me EV, always try to be very friendly to the staff and put on a decent act. I've been very fortunate so far!

Quote: theOmega623

I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?

Instead of forcing your players to play only certain games a certain way and then spliting the profits, why not go off of generated EV and pay people out accordingly. That will allow freedom for your players and a more accurate pay out based on each individual's generated EV. Maybe your players would rather use a more complicated count or find less heat playing 6D. CVCX should be able to provide you with the data for the games your players are playing with all the variables considered.

Quote: kewlj

Could you provide a link billryan?

Is this a reference to disposable players? A lot of teams were doing that about that time. Just burning through players. :(

Much more beneficial to the team than individual players.

Here you go KJ.

https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/the-card-con-8316

It's similar to what you suggested with burning through Players but more insidious

Thanks to Bill Ryan for pointing it out

Quote: Viper21

Instead of forcing your players to play only certain games a certain way and then spliting the profits, why not go off of generated EV and pay people out accordingly. That will allow freedom for your players and a more accurate pay out based on each individual's generated EV. Maybe your players would rather use a more complicated count or find less heat playing 6D. CVCX should be able to provide you with the data for the games your players are playing with all the variables considered.

Thanks for your input Viper21! That's not a bad idea, I myself use the Omega II count when playing 2D. I would certainly be willing to do something like that, the type of team I would want to be a part of is one where each member had an equal say of how the team would operate.

I'm sorry but I dont do links. Long story, but I don't do links.
I found the article by just putting in the magazine and blackjack team. It's from the summer of 2003. It's shorter than I remembered but it was an eye-opener.

Quote: billryan

I'm sorry but I dont do links. Long story, but I don't do links.
I found the article by just putting in the magazine and blackjack team. It's from the summer of 2003. It's shorter than I remembered but it was an eye-opener.

Just how dangerous can copying and pasting a link be?

That's one long story I want to hear

Okay so new plan, we start a company employing about 100 AP's, each supplying some funds of whatever amount. I'll need some software that analyzes play as it is live streamed, kind of like what casinos use (or so I've heard). Players may use whichever system they prefer as long as it is approved after running it through CVCX. With 100 players on a bankroll of around half a mil, I'm thinking we might do okay? lol

EDIT: I just ran this idea by my wife, and now I think she really wants me to shut the f up.

Quote: theOmega623

I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?

What do you do if you see a partner make simple errors in play? Like miscounting, or missing a basic strategy decision? Fire him after two errors? Four? Ten?
What do you do if he is $50 short? $100? $500?
What do you do if there is an hour not filmed? (The battery was dead...).
I am sure if it was your intent to cheat the others getting around this ‘filming’ idea would not be too difficult.

Either you trust the partners 100% or don’t have them as partners. It’s why I would never be involved. If you are building in wasting time by watching your partners that substantially decreases your EV per hour by the way.

Quote: ChumpChange

I saw the movie 21 (2008) on Netflix recently. GAME OVER!

the really ironic thing is that 𝑴𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑫𝒐𝒍𝒍𝒂𝒓 𝑩𝒍𝒂𝒄𝒌𝒋𝒂𝒄𝒌 was published in 1982 and authored by Ken Uston

He did basically the same thing much earlier and very few seem to realize this

I don't believe there was even a single innovation by the MIT team that was not done by Uston's team

unless you're talking about very minor things

Quote: SOOPOO

What do you do if you see a partner make simple errors in play? Like miscounting, or missing a basic strategy decision? Fire him after two errors? Four? Ten?
What do you do if he is $50 short? $100? $500?
What do you do if there is an hour not filmed? (The battery was dead...).
I am sure if it was your intent to cheat the others getting around this ‘filming’ idea would not be too difficult.

Either you trust the partners 100% or don’t have them as partners. It’s why I would never be involved. If you are building in wasting time by watching your partners that substantially decreases your EV per hour by the way.

Thanks for your response SOOPOO! All good points you bring up, as far as playing errors go I would never personally want to eliminate a player for that reason as it is so easily fixable. I would just encourage the player to focus and take time making decisions and get plenty of practice, and hopefully it would not be a reoccurring problem. If it was then I suppose the team would have to decide if a player needs to be put on hiatus to practice.

As far as players coming up short, that is far more serious. The biggest problem to me is the last point you brought up, viewing the play. I have no good answer to that one.

Trying to manage and coordinate a large team would be difficult. Generally, people have different levels of availability for AP activity.

Here is a lesson from the espionage and terrorism business: In terrorism and espionage, people tend to organize into cells of 5 people or less - to maintain secrecy and to reduce the chances of miscommunications and personality conflicts. Only one person in the cell knows who they report to.

A team is more attractive when you want to work a game where multiple counts (of different things) would increase EV or where information in your hands needs to be shared.

Let me just share some personal thoughts on this team play concept. It is not a criticism of anyone's plan, nor meant as discouragemnet.

Team play is nothing new. Someone mentioned Kenny Uston's team and that was 40 years ago. There have been MIT teams since the 60's. In my opinion the call in approach has been over utilized by now. Casinos and personnel are pretty good at spotting the signs. Now, the OP wasn't really talking about the "call in" approach. He was talking more the EMFH team style and I do think their is some benefit to this, especially for a small number of players with smaller BR's. This allows them to play higher stakes.

Any talk of a large team is a disaster waiting to happen. (again, only my opinion). A larger team, 10, 15, 20 or more players requires a fulltime manager, doing NOTHING but managing. Just the same as when a business gets bigger they need fulltime managers, HR reps, the whole works. And the issue is ALWAYS trust.

Let's talk money and a big team. Say you get 20 guys putting in 50k BR for a million dollar BR. These 20 guys expect to double or triple (or more) their investment. That means the team has to win several million for a successful outcome....not an easy task. I remember reading about one team (I think it was one of the versions of MIT), playing large stakes and immediately went in the hole to the tune of hundreds of thousands. Spent significant time trying to dig out and I don't know, did they get back to even before breaking the bank? Maybe made a small profit? Some of you must remember the story.

And like I said, casinos are much better at identifying that kind of team, playing together, staying in the same suite like in the movies. So you play for months, dig out of a deep hole and have burned out your name (names can be replaced) and face (faces can't).


I much prefer a very small EMFH team, among a few people you REALLY know and trust. This way you aren't playing together, making it harder to associate everyone with each other and you don't have to score multi-millions to get the desired return.

And let's face it, how much BR do you need? You get many members contributing and build a million dollar BR as I described before, what stakes are you playing? Stakes that ARE going to be noticed and draw attention. In my opinion the upper end of spread or max bet is more practically going to be determined by casino thresholds of tolerance than anything else. One you get above max bets of $1000 or even $500 for my style, there is no flying under the radar. It's all out in the open. You go higher, $5000 and there is no rat-holing, no hiding anything. The casino knows every minute detail of your play.

So the bottom line, I like an EMFH team that allows a very few players to combine small BR that allows them to bump up in stakes, and play a level they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Everything else is overkill, complicates things and most importantly has been OVER-done.

Quote: kewlj

Let me just share some personal thoughts on this team play concept. It is not a criticism of anyone's plan, nor meant as discouragemnet.

Team play is nothing new. Someone mentioned Kenny Uston's team and that was 40 years ago. There have been MIT teams since the 60's. In my opinion the call in approach has been over utilized by now. Casinos and personnel are pretty good at spotting the signs. Now, the OP wasn't really talking about the "call in" approach. He was talking more the EMFH team style and I do think their is some benefit to this, especially for a small number of players with smaller BR's. This allows them to play higher stakes.

Any talk of a large team is a disaster waiting to happen. (again, only my opinion). A larger team, 10, 15, 20 or more players requires a fulltime manager, doing NOTHING but managing. Just the same as when a business gets bigger they need fulltime managers, HR reps, the whole works. And the issue is ALWAYS trust.

Let's talk money and a big team. Say you get 20 guys putting in 50k BR for a million dollar BR. These 20 guys expect to double or triple (or more) their investment. That means the team has to win several million for a successful outcome....not an easy task. I remember reading about one team (I think it was one of the versions of MIT), playing large stakes and immediately went in the hole to the tune of hundreds of thousands. Spent significant time trying to dig out and I don't know, did they get back to even before breaking the bank? Maybe made a small profit? Some of you must remember the story.

And like I said, casinos are much better at identifying that kind of team, playing together, staying in the same suite like in the movies. So you play for months, dig out of a deep hole and have burned out your name (names can be replaced) and face (faces can't).


I much prefer a very small EMFH team, among a few people you REALLY know and trust. This way you aren't playing together, making it harder to associate everyone with each other and you don't have to score multi-millions to get the desired return.

And let's face it, how much BR do you need? You get many members contributing and build a million dollar BR as I described before, what stakes are you playing? Stakes that ARE going to be noticed and draw attention. In my opinion the upper end of spread or max bet is more practically going to be determined by casino thresholds of tolerance than anything else. One you get above max bets of $1000 or even $500 for my style, there is no flying under the radar. It's all out in the open. You go higher, $5000 and there is no rat-holing, no hiding anything. The casino knows every minute detail of your play.

So the bottom line, I like an EMFH team that allows a very few players to combine small BR that allows them to bump up in stakes, and play a level they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Everything else is overkill, complicates things and most importantly has been OVER-done.

I agree with everything you said 100% Kewlj. It seems to me the most practical approach would be along the lines of what I mentioned earlier in this thread, creating a small team of 4 or 5 players. Each member playing with their own separate money, just perhaps doing some traveling together and sharing experiences with eachother and building relationships. That could eventually lead to players choosing to play on a bankroll together, but either way it would certainly make being a full-time or even part-time AP a much more enjoyable experience.

When I was serious about starting a team and ran all sorts of models, I decided seven was the ideal number. Tried to make eight work, but seven fit the bill. This was all theoretical, just me working various scenarios out on yellow note pads. Start with three and expand to seven. I had a few candidates but it never got beyond the initial planning steps.
My conclusion was if you can put together a few people and a bankroll, there are much better ways to beat the house.

Quote: theOmega623

It seems to me the most practical approach would be along the lines of what I mentioned earlier in this thread, creating a small team of 4 or 5 players. Each member playing with their own separate money, just perhaps doing some traveling together and sharing experiences with eachother and building relationships. That could eventually lead to players choosing to play on a bankroll together, but either way it would certainly make being a full-time or even part-time AP a much more enjoyable experience.

THIS!!!

What you describe does not depend on trust! Kind of like if you want to go fishing... sharing a boat will save on expenses.... but you can each keep whatever you individually catch.

i have a few friends i would 100% trust would not try to cheat me, but I would NOT 100% trust them to be as diligent as myself with respect to proper play, correct betting levels, count, etc...

A team of 20 will have at least three people stealing.

Quote: lilredrooster

the really ironic thing is that 𝑴𝒊𝒍𝒍𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑫𝒐𝒍𝒍𝒂𝒓 𝑩𝒍𝒂𝒄𝒌𝒋𝒂𝒄𝒌 was published in 1982 and authored by Ken Uston<snip>

lilredrooster,

Way off topic, so let me apologize in advance.

I don't know what it is about many of your posts, but my Fire tablet seems to have trouble with certain portions of your posts. For example, in the above-quoted post, the words between "... thing is that ..." and " ... was published... " are rendered on my Fire as a series of x-ed out boxes.

Did you use a strange font or something? I ask because many of your posts contain such lacunae.

Also, do any other readers have a similar problem?

Dog Hand

I've run across this occasionally on my fire tablets. No idea what causes it. It generally fixes itself over time.

Yes he did use a different font that may not be supported on your kindle. I remember in Windows 98 I had to download fonts and they used up a lot of my 384 MB of RAM.
I'm on a couple 8GB RAM computers and had to up the SWAP file to 24,000 MB - 32,000 MB.

Quote: ChumpChange

Yes he did use a different font that may not be supported on your kindle. I remember in Windows 98 I had to download fonts and they used up a lot of my 384 MB of RAM.
I'm on a couple 8GB RAM computers and had to up the SWAP file to 24,000 MB - 32,000 MB.

I also remember having to turn the rabbit ears... just so... to get a clear image on one of my earlier systems as well. I think it was my Philco 54.