heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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May 2nd, 2020 at 10:35:21 PM permalink
First off I am sticking to this same story :

At the top of GLIs website it states :

https://gaminglabs.com/gli-standards/

GLI Standards
GLIís business is to test, review and report on gaming devices and systems against the standards established by relevant gaming jurisdictions worldwide. Each jurisdiction has the authority to set their own standards; however, many use our standards as a starting point in developing their regulations.

Ive said that before. Notice how it says starting point in developing their regulations. The process is for sure rigorous to get anything through them. But to me they have this specific statement at the top of their website, and have had it there for a while, to make sure that you do not make the mistake of going to THEM first as any type of legal resource. You can not count on any of it and that they will be testing for specific things if it is not defined legally in the jurisdiction...

Second off, I have told you my little story about me almost being kicked out of sands/wind creek. But the one thing I may have left out was that in the emotional state that the lady was in, I didn't have much time so I made a quick reference to this letter

https://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/files/regulations/Proposed_Rulemakings_125-137_Shuffle_Master_Public_Comment.pdf

in which I purposely misquoted, and I said that the law specifically says that the shufflers have the ability to " provide any information that can be used to aid a patron in the projecting of the outcome of a game, tracking of the cards played and cards remaining to be played, analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game, or analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a game"

in her emotional state she actually admitted to me that they IN FACT do have the ability to do these exact things, but DO NOT use them for nefarious reasons. It is actually the BACCARAT SHOES that can do this apparently on the FLY.

Now take a look at the update law for PA shuffler machines. Notice how ONE word has been added and that is that she shuffling machines cannot aide a PATRON in any of this stuff. But the casino IMO is now excluded, and can do anything they want.

https://casetext.com/regulation/pennsylvania-code-rules-and-regulations/title-58-recreation/part-vii-gaming-control-board/subpart-k-table-games/chapter-603a-table-game-equipment/section-603a17-dealing-shoes-automated-card-shuffling-devices

But to me this is the clear indication of what they have the ability to do IMO.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
Joined: Jul 13, 2012
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May 2nd, 2020 at 11:40:48 PM permalink
500 /month doesn't seem enough to compensate for the R&D cost of this feature.

We'd have to presume that either the shuffle co. or the casinos are grasping at straws to make a profit. I can't imagine a shuffle co. or casino doing this.
I belong to an elite group called the "Zombie Outbreak Response Team."
Romes
Romes
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May 4th, 2020 at 5:48:20 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

Ah Romes. Another person who frequents this forum for which I have a great deal of respect, but I think in this case you're wearing a tinfoil hat.

...Regardless of all of that, and accepting for a moment, as you say, that it's "absolutely possible", so tell me, how's it done? How is the machine jiggered such that it will influence the TC of a deck? I mean - tell me how the hardware - the physical device - is triggered to do that?

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
michael99000
michael99000
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
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May 4th, 2020 at 6:13:44 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...



If a player became aware that the count on every 10 cards was near 0, and that the shoe was free of clumps, that could be turned around in their favor. Sit at third base. You get to see about 10-15 cards before you have to play your hand. If the count on those cards is high or low by a decent amount , you know your cards you draw should even things out.
Could make a difference with playing 8-8, taking insurance or not, playing a 16 hand..
WatchMeWin
WatchMeWin
Joined: May 20, 2011
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May 4th, 2020 at 6:17:02 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...



Listening to this sure strengthens my belief that the casinos (dice manufacturers) have the ability to cheat the game of craps too. If they will do it in one game, why not all games... All of the people here, who vehemently defend the casinos when anyone brings up cheating, are either naive or in on the gig.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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Thanks for this post from:
ForagerZcore13SOOPOO
May 4th, 2020 at 6:36:55 PM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

.. All of the people here, who vehemently defend the casinos when anyone brings up cheating, are either naive or in on the gig.



I think if you listen to the people here that actually have knowledge of casino programming and regulatory oversight, they are the ones saying it is unlikely. It tends to be the naive people that believe the cheating is sponsored and done by the casino.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
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May 4th, 2020 at 6:50:39 PM permalink
I've seen a 60 year old lady who could be a card mechanic doing hand shuffles on 6 decks and giving herself 5 Blackjacks in a row at the top of a shoe.

The statisticians here could say a 0 count is the same as video Blackjack with no deck memory. They could also say the variance gets ripped up so you have not so low lows and not so high highs. I'd demand to get paid 3:1 on a Blackjack if that's how it's played, but we get 6:5 instead.
racquet
racquet
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
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May 4th, 2020 at 7:09:56 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.


The story here is that the machine is built to declump, not that a casino could do it if they wanted. This is conspiracy theory gone wild : Shufflemaster has built a machine that does this, and all the casinos are in on it, and Shufflemaster markets its machine as such.
Quote: Romes

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count.


I'm a former programmer myself, and for sure if you gave us access to the software, we could program one machine to do this. And yes, someone not as clever as us, but with the contacts to get inside one of these machines could do it. But across an entire casino? Throughout the industry? This thread is not about a single machine, or some or all of the machines in one casino.
Quote: Romes

Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!"


This is not a digital activity. Shuffling is not something you can speed up. Shuffle as fast as you can, and "shuffle more and more?" What's going on until the machine decides, after how many shuffles? ten? fifty? that it's finally come up, randomly, with a neutral deck? No Moore's Law here. A faster CPU is not going to reduce the time it takes to "shuffle more and more."
Quote: Romes

You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.


Romes, I never thought that you had fallen for the theory that number of players at the table, and whether or not they take an "average" number of cards made any difference in your "luck". For this deception to work, it couldn't be sold to the casinos as something that only worked at a table of 3 players taking 2.5 cards, or any other combination. Again, Shufflemaster is supposedly engaged in a Grand Conspiracy. So they undertake this plan, but it'll only work if you closely manage the number of players and their tendency to take only so many cards?
Quote: Romes

...then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again?


Personally I've been playing Blackjack since 1978. Never saw cheating. Never heard of cheating. Time and again? List a few.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
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May 4th, 2020 at 10:24:49 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think if you listen to the people here that actually have knowledge of casino programming and regulatory oversight, they are the ones saying it is unlikely. It tends to be the naive people that believe the cheating is sponsored and done by the casino.

Someone sometimes being right like this is less dangerous than you being sometimes wrong. It's a big world, we're a corrupt nation.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
Joined: Jul 13, 2012
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May 4th, 2020 at 10:45:10 PM permalink
Why would a shuffle co. divulge this feature to any casino employee. The profit increases speak for themselves under the guise of faster shuffling and more play.

I would think that a programmer could program the machines to do what they want. Yet clumping and zero count won't make much difference in profit. But thwart card counters.
I belong to an elite group called the "Zombie Outbreak Response Team."

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