beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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May 5th, 2020 at 6:02:30 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...



I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as a contractor to SHFL/SGI. I'm outside the loop, so can't claim authority, but here's my understanding.

1. CAN the shuffler read the cards? Yes. If you watch closely when they bring in new decks, you will see them rip a test card that has yellow, blue marks as well as red and black. The cards are marked with yellow printed under/over the red/black ink, that the scanner can see but the eye doesn't distinguish. Not sure how the blue figures in, but probably for the ink lineup in the court ranks.

2. DOES the shuffler read the cards? Yes, it does, but that is not reported to the chip unless

A.. There is a card error detected, as Romes mentioned.

B. The shuffler is in card sort mode.

C. The game is asked to determine the House hand, as in PGP with a connected dealer designation number.

In A. The report only goes thru after a trouble report ("red light") which, by procedure, is a dead-hand deal. They must keep voiding and recycling the hand until they get a green light deal.

The detection also happens if the right amount of cards are in the machine, but there is a duplicate card. This prevents someone from substituting, say, an Ace for a Five, even if the backs match. I'm not 100% sure whether there is a unique deck ID in hidden ink, or if it's tracking by individual card, but it can tell.

In B. The shuffler must be MANUALLY keyed, usually by a PB, into Sort mode. It can ONLY sort the deck, not clump or preferential shuffle by rank or value.

In C. The info is READ-ONLY. the dealer can ask it for ANY hand, and it will display what's in that hand by the best houseway low hand. Tables that use the hand display, use it not just for the dealer's hand, but for setting any player's hand house way.

The reader sees the hands as they are dealt into packets, AFTER they are randomized, and AFTER the separate random number is selected for first hand. It THEN calculates optimum house way.

3. The Software CAN be programmed to cheat, given the capabilities. But it is NOT. It would destroy a multi-billion dollar business to allow any case of this, so they don't. There are elaborate procedures to protect against this happening, with independent checks, physical sealing of the eprom chips into the motherboards, periodic audits, and other safeguards I don't know about.

If the cheating was enabled within the shuffler company, as I said, they would be out of business in a month or so. If it were at the casino level, the audits and servicing would discover it, and steep penalties or loss of license would follow.

It's simply not worth it, with all games -ev in the first place, and the casino playing in the long run, to cheat with the shufflers. They don't. But it makes for a persuasive conspiracy theory when a whole table or personal game is in runbad.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
racquet
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May 5th, 2020 at 6:35:21 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as a contractor to SHFL/SGI. I'm outside the loop, so can't claim authority, but here's my understanding.



The whole premise of this thread, at least when it started, was that ShuffleMaster markets the machine as a "declumper" and that this ability created less variability, meaning less volatile TC. Whether it could be hacked, whether anyone could hack it, whatever could be done to the machine after it left the factory or in the backroom of the evil casino that wanted to hack it... the company sold it as something that had "declumping technology" embedded.

There followed here an attempt to define "declumping", from, essentially, creating a deck with an unvarying, very low, TC, to the concept of randomly mixing the cards while shuffling such that any previous "clump" of cards from a previous deck would be broken up, without regard to the values of the cards themselves.

Nobody, including charter members of the Alcoa Haberdasher's Guild, has presented any proof that the initial idea is true. I'm not sure, but I don't even think the OP has come back to visit his post and defend this idea.

Well-respected contributors to this forum (ZCore, BBB, others...) generally agree that there's nothing going on here.

Case closed at this point? It is for me. If I ever get back into a casino, the ASM will not be something I think is working against me.
unJon
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May 5th, 2020 at 7:17:28 AM permalink
Beast mode strikes again. :-)
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
TDVegas
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May 5th, 2020 at 8:37:48 AM permalink
Gambling is supposed to be enjoyable, fun. If you add into your head "being cheated"....you likely are not enjoying gambling. In that case, why bother?

If you do have that thought in your head AND you are enjoying gambling....my advice would be to seek counseling.
SM777
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May 5th, 2020 at 8:46:31 AM permalink
These threads really allow the people who know nothing about the gaming industry, but claim to on this forum, rise to the top and reveal themselves.
Zcore13
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May 5th, 2020 at 8:54:32 AM permalink
Quote: SM777

These threads really allow the people who know nothing about the gaming industry, but claim to on this forum, rise to the top and reveal themselves.



You get someone stirring up crap, making a post and not returning and that wakes up the one that reads patents and thinks just because something could conceivably be done, it is. Then add in the paranoid card counters and conspiracy theory champs and you get your run of the mill, every 6 month, shuffler beast mode discussion.


ZCore13
Last edited by: Zcore13 on May 5, 2020
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
TDVegas
TDVegas
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May 5th, 2020 at 9:08:04 AM permalink
Then you also get the ones who say if the gaming laws don’t specifically say “you can’t do something”.....it means you legally can.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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May 5th, 2020 at 10:02:31 AM permalink
And the guys who have worked in like two casinos and talk down to everyone authoritatively about how every casino everywhere operates.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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May 5th, 2020 at 10:36:15 AM permalink
Y'all are closing in on the rude line from all directions. It's a discussion worth having, so let's not spoil it with dung - flinging, please. Thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
heatmap
heatmap
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May 5th, 2020 at 10:56:13 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm not 100% sure whether there is a unique deck ID in hidden ink, or if it's tracking by individual card, but it can tell.



have you ever seen some of the videos of Persi Diaconis shuffling and when he writes the word RANDOM on the side of the deck and as hes shuffling it gets blurrier and then the word repeats but is smaller as the shuffle gets more random? im pretty sure its on the edge of the decks because if someone were to catch on to hidden ink on the faces of the cards it would be much easier to discern rather than the side which is like a barcode most likely if it has hidden ink...

Quote: beachbumbabs


In C. The info is READ-ONLY. the dealer can ask it for ANY hand, and it will display what's in that hand by the best houseway low hand. Tables that use the hand display, use it not just for the dealer's hand, but for setting any player's hand house way.



is this tied to ASMs? or is this the Inteli-shoes or whatever they are called after the hand is dealt? Or can this be done before as well?

Quote: beachbumbabs


3. The Software CAN be programmed to cheat, given the capabilities. But it is NOT. It would destroy a multi-billion dollar business to allow any case of this, so they don't. There are elaborate procedures to protect against this happening, with independent checks, physical sealing of the eprom chips into the motherboards, periodic audits, and other safeguards I don't know about.



pseudo random number generators?

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