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Wizard
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June 15th, 2019 at 5:24:02 AM permalink
Inside the the Edge is a very recent documentary that follows a professional blackjack player as he travels the country in an RV playing at every casino with the game along the way. Along the way, experts, including yours truly *ahem* explain the math, terminology, and legal issues in greater depth. Here is the trailer:



I watched it on iTunes and am waiting for the DVD from Amazon.

I've ranted that card counting seems to be always depicted as an easy way to make a windfall of money in the movies and television. Rain Man and 21 come immediately to mind. Inside the Edge is the non-fictional work that actually shows what it's like. I must admit I've been saying that card counting is dead or nearly-dead and this movie proves me wrong. However, it does show KC, the main character, getting 86'd and trespassed right and left, and sometimes worse.

The lineup of experts giving commentary is outstanding, if I may toot my own horn. Many of the big names, including James Grosjean, are in it.

BTW, this is not my first movie. I play a similar roll, but talking about slots, in Ka-ching -- Pokie Nation, another great movie.

The question for the poll is what is your review of Inside the Edge?

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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June 15th, 2019 at 10:01:29 AM permalink
I just purchased it from Amazon prime streaming for $8. Not bad.

Will watch tonight.

Looks like hidden cameras used for casinos interior.

One of the things that annoyed me about the Christian Blackjack team doc was they seemed to have pro cameras following them around inside the casinos.

I mean, if the casino sees a camera man following you around??? That and other things about that doc made me highly suspect it was staged.

This one appears more real.

Thoughts after I watch. Thx
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mcallister3200
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June 15th, 2019 at 10:21:31 AM permalink
He didn’t go to EVERY casino along the path. His friend is filming. There’s also at least a couple casinos he’s going into mainly for the purpose of getting trespassed/the footage, he otherwise would have known better as an experienced networked player (the one where he’s getting harassed by cops, for sure he knew that wasn’t going to be pleasant and he wasn’t getting much EV before entering). It was good overall, a bit short.
Wizard
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June 15th, 2019 at 11:24:56 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

He didn’t go to EVERY casino along the path. His friend is filming. There’s also at least a couple casinos he’s going into mainly for the purpose of getting trespassed/the footage, he otherwise would have known better as an experienced networked player (the one where he’s getting harassed by cops, for sure he knew that wasn’t going to be pleasant and he wasn’t getting much EV before entering). It was good overall, a bit short.



From remarks made and style of play, it seemed KC (is that right?) wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and do something else with his life afterward.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall him explaining who was doing the secret recording. At various times in the movie he complained about being lonely. I wondered why the secret cameraman didn't keep him company between sessions.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mcallister3200
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June 15th, 2019 at 12:13:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

From remarks made and style of play, it seemed KC (is that right?) wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and do something else with his life afterward.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall him explaining who was doing the secret recording. At various times in the movie he complained about being lonely. I wondered why the secret cameraman didn't keep him company between sessions.



Quotes below from a chat on Norms site in 2012 (this film has been supposedly coming out for a long time now.) It sort of seemed like he was solo some of the time I agree.

“I was always scared for my partner Chris, who carried and wore the cameras.”

“I decided to go out on a limb and travel the entire country as the last chapter of my career. My friend and filmmaker, Chris Buddy, thought it would make an excellent cinematic experience so I let him tag along and document the whole trip.”

The film shows a surveillance flyer of Chris when he’s talking about casinos overreacting.
Wizard
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June 15th, 2019 at 12:32:50 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Quotes below from a chat on Norms site in 2012 (this film has been supposedly coming out for a long time now.)



Thanks for the comments. You can tell the film was in progress for a long time by the color of my hair. It was only about 10% grey at the time of my scenes. Now it's 90%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DRich
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June 15th, 2019 at 12:39:23 PM permalink
I was a little disappointed in it. I guess I was hoping to see more footage of him actually playing in the casinos. I'm not sure that I learned anything new either.

I want my $5 back.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
FleaStiff
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June 15th, 2019 at 1:19:45 PM permalink
I have never believed in that oxygen myth but I'm sure it will never die.

As to card counting, I've generally accepted the "hard way to make an easy living" theory and the observation that those who have the bank roll usually have the skills to make far more money doing something else.

Yet it has always puzzled me as to why casinos hire zillions of sharp eyed floor men to guard against a myth.
AxelWolf
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June 15th, 2019 at 1:29:06 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the comments. You can tell the film was in progress for a long time by the color of my hair. It was only about 10% grey at the time of my scenes. Now it's 90%.



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♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Gialmere
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June 15th, 2019 at 2:18:38 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

As to card counting, I've generally accepted the "hard way to make an easy living" theory and the observation that those who have the bank roll usually have the skills to make far more money doing something else.



I really enjoy reading posts by the APrs here but I can't see myself getting into it unless something just fell in my lap (highly unlikely). All that work and research involved. It's certainly not a lifestyle for most people. I'm always reminded of that scene in the film "The Sting" ....

Quote:

Johnny Hooker: How many guys you conned in your life, Henry?

Henry Gondorff: I don't know, 200, 300. Sometimes we played two a day when I was with O'Shea's mob. Of course, Chicago was a rigged town. The fix was in. The dicks took their end without a beef. We had it down to a business. And it really stunk, kid. No sense in being a grifter if it's the same thing as being a citizen.

Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
TomG
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June 15th, 2019 at 2:35:30 PM permalink
Looks awesome. Thanks for the tip.

Quote: Wizard

I must admit I've been saying that card counting is dead or nearly-dead and this movie proves me wrong.



So long as there is 3-2 pitch or shoe games, people will be counting cards and earning money at it. But for most of us, it's recreation, much more similar to anyone else going to the casino to risk their money on games than a 'profession.'

Guys like this, moving hundreds of thousands around and betting huge and winning and losing a down payment on a car each hand have become much rarer. But one theory is that the closer they get toward extinction, casinos think they can easy up on protection and that gives an opening for anyone to move back in. It's the "cat-and-mouse" game being played throughout the industry.
TomG
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June 15th, 2019 at 2:45:11 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

As to card counting, I've generally accepted the "hard way to make an easy living" theory and the observation that those who have the bank roll usually have the skills to make far more money doing something else.



I've heard this, but don't believe it. A lot of being able to earn money in business world is about a person being able to sell themselves, netweork, and play along with and manipulate all sorts of undefined and constantly changing norms. A lot of it is about being personable and fitting certain stereotypes. A lot of guys making money at these things (whether blackjack, video poker, poker, sports; whether $20,000 or $200,000) can't fit into that world very well.
darkoz
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June 15th, 2019 at 3:27:04 PM permalink
This doc has made me consider not publishing my book

Seems much more exciting to have a camera crew follow my adventures.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
michael99000
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June 15th, 2019 at 4:09:52 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

This doc has made me consider not publishing my book

Seems much more exciting to have a camera crew follow my adventures.




Loading up freeplay on random people’s players cards can only truly be appreciated on the big screen.
mcallister3200
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June 15th, 2019 at 4:16:02 PM permalink
Insert bus joke here.
darkoz
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June 15th, 2019 at 4:51:36 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

Loading up freeplay on random people’s players cards can only truly be appreciated on the big screen.



Scene 1: interior casino floor
security officer to Darkoz: "Dont let me see your face in here again."

CUT TO

Scene 2: Interior casino entrance double doors

Donning face mask Darkoz returns

SLOMO, LOUD POP MUSIC ON SOUNDTRACK as he confidently enters double doors without any concern to being recognized

MONTAGE Darkoz shaking hands with same security officer who has no clue its him, Darkoz sitting at slots in mask, cashing out thousands at redemption machines.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MaxPen
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June 15th, 2019 at 5:33:24 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Scene 1: interior casino floor
security officer to Darkoz: "Dont let me see your face in here again."

CUT TO

Scene 2: Interior casino entrance double doors

Donning face mask Darkoz returns

SLOMO, LOUD POP MUSIC ON SOUNDTRACK as he confidently enters double doors without any concern to being recognized

MONTAGE Darkoz shaking hands with same security officer who has no clue its him, Darkoz sitting at slots in mask, cashing out thousands at redemption machines.



Scene 3: Stowing the Money in the CHEAP Home Safe

Only to get robbed by a family associate hours later.😀
darkoz
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June 15th, 2019 at 5:44:54 PM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

Scene 3: Stowing the Money in the CHEAP Home Safe

Only to get robbed by a family associate hours later.😀



Thats not even a joke!

Of course that would be in the film.

Would be kinda boring to not show any of the problems in the world of AP.

90 minutes of winning(2hours 10 minute directors cut) would make everyone tired.

"You would see so much winning you would be tired of winning" (famous paraphrased quote by infamous person)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FleaStiff
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June 16th, 2019 at 1:51:53 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

I've heard this, but don't believe it. A lot of being able to earn money in business world is about a person being able to sell themselves, netweork, and play along with and manipulate all sorts of undefined and constantly changing norms. A lot of it is about being personable and fitting certain stereotypes. A lot of guys making money at these things (whether blackjack, video poker, poker, sports; whether $20,000 or $200,000) can't fit into that world very well.

I think you are quite correct. The glad-handing salesman can make more money selling than counting cards but the nerdy individualist is much better off as a cardcounter.
racquet
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June 16th, 2019 at 7:24:20 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

I think you are quite correct. The glad-handing salesman can make more money selling than counting cards but the nerdy individualist is much better off as a cardcounter.



I agree.

I can count cards, but I can't play poker. For that game you need to read people and see inside their heads to know what they are thinking. The cards can give you some clues, but the cards alone are never going to give you the upper hand.

In blackjack, the cards tell it all. The dealer, the floor, the other players, the waitresses? The only thing they can provide are distractions. You can read the minds, literally, of everyone around you and it tells you nothing about the next card out of the shoe.

Anyone with enough money to make run at card counting has probably less of a chance to be successful, since his money, if he earned it himself, probably came from some enterprise that required some level of social skill. The card counter doesn't need any of that.

How many index plays do you track? For every different game: H17; S17; 6deck; 2deck;1deck; do you play BS for each one, depending on where you are?

Do you present such a low social profile or presence that they don't notice you?

Maybe you need some social ability if you play at so few places that you are always recognized, but not as an AP. So you can't be a total social ant. But it helps.
AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2019 at 10:09:29 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Thats not even a joke!

Of course that would be in the film.

Would be kinda boring to not show any of the problems in the world of AP.

90 minutes of winning(2hours 10 minute directors cut) would make everyone tired.

"You would see so much winning you would be tired of winning" (famous paraphrased quote by infamous person)

You normally win straight up on slots after 90 minutes of play? You must not be ridding no ordinary bus, perhaps the magic bus.

I can't imagine picking up free play on other peoples cards makes for good TV.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MaxPen
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AxelWolf
June 16th, 2019 at 10:15:16 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You normally win straight up on slots after 90 minutes of play? You must not be ridding no ordinary bus, perhaps the magic bus.

I can't imagine picking up free play on other peoples cards makes for good TV.



I think he just really wants to wear a cape with his mask.😀
darkoz
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June 16th, 2019 at 10:32:46 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You normally win straight up on slots after 90 minutes of play? You must not be ridding no ordinary bus, perhaps the magic bus.

I can't imagine picking up free play on other peoples cards makes for good TV.



2 things

1) seems you misunderstand what i meant by 90 minutes of winning.

Im referring to a running time for the show on me. Not real time at any given slots. I thought that would have been clear.

This thread is about a doc on blackjack which runs one hour 12 minutes and shows KC, the main BJ player winning overall for that time. Get it?

2) pu FP on other people cards is probably as exciting as watching a player putting out bets at a blackjack table card counting.

What made the doc interesting was the countermeasures security put in place and KC attempts to circumvent them

Such would be the content of a doc on me (along with other related calamities like the robbery)

I am quite confident my story would be widely viewed. Any doubt about that and just go back and read my robbery thread. An AP Nightmare garnered 50 pages in a week and was highly followed on WOV
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2019 at 11:51:55 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

2 things

1) seems you misunderstand what i meant by 90 minutes of winning.

Im referring to a running time for the show on me. Not real time at any given slots. I thought that would have been clear.

This thread is about a doc on blackjack which runs one hour 12 minutes and shows KC, the main BJ player winning overall for that time. Get it?

2) pu FP on other people cards is probably as exciting as watching a player putting out bets at a blackjack table card counting.

What made the doc interesting was the countermeasures security put in place and KC attempts to circumvent them

Such would be the content of a doc on me (along with other related calamities like the robbery)

I am quite confident my story would be widely viewed. Any doubt about that and just go back and read my robbery thread. An AP Nightmare garnered 50 pages in a week and was highly followed on WOV




I can only imagine them filming your entire day. 10 min checking if the contents of safe is still their, 10 min buying a new bus pass ,10 min at the bus stop, 8 hours on the bus and 20 minutes of play. (-;

But seriously, Happy Fathers Day.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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June 16th, 2019 at 12:01:51 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I can only imagine them filming your entire day. 10 min checking if the contents of safe is still their, 10 min buying a new bus pass ,10 min at the bus stop, 8 hours on the bus and 20 minutes of play. (-;

But seriously, Happy Fathers Day.



It would definitely be better than the doc on you.

Interviewer: "So Axel tell us about yourself

Axel: "sorry thats a secret"

Interviewer: "tell us about your AP moves?

Axel: " Sorry, thats a secret."

Interviewer: "So Axel, what do you do for fun?"

Axel: "sorry thats a secret. And I like making fun of people who ride busses"

Intervewer(in fake interest voice): "Oh, fascinating"
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2019 at 5:24:08 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

It would definitely be better than the doc on you.

Interviewer: "So Axel tell us about yourself

Axel: "sorry thats a secret"

Interviewer: "tell us about your AP moves?

Axel: " Sorry, thats a secret."

Interviewer: "So Axel, what do you do for fun?"

Axel: "sorry thats a secret. And I like making fun of people who ride busses"

Intervewer(in fake interest voice): "Oh, fascinating"

AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD BE!!!!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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June 16th, 2019 at 8:26:53 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD BE!!!!



Im sorry I scare you so much.

Its tough being so feared
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2019 at 11:37:17 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Im sorry I scare you so much.

Its tough being so feared

I'm pretty much scared of all bus people.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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June 17th, 2019 at 12:25:49 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Im sorry I scare you so much.

Its tough being so feared


Who exactly do you imagine "fears" you? 🤦‍♂️
Radged
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June 17th, 2019 at 2:01:46 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I'm pretty much scared of all bus people.

it's horrible!
Wizard
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June 17th, 2019 at 3:41:57 PM permalink
Look who has an IMDB listing!. Don't bother me for a while, I am working on my Academy Award acceptance speech.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Gialmere
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June 17th, 2019 at 3:56:27 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Look who has an IMDB listing!. Don't bother me for a while, I am working on my Academy Award acceptance speech.


Hey, you get top billing for "Ka-Ching! Pokie Nation". Start asking for more money. You could also pad your resume with some of the TV shows you've appeared on.

Edit: Do you have a SAG card?
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
darkoz
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June 17th, 2019 at 3:57:58 PM permalink
Congrats
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
odiousgambit
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June 18th, 2019 at 11:23:50 AM permalink
geez, does everybody from California get to be on a sitcom or somesuch once in their lifetime?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Wizard
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June 18th, 2019 at 2:52:54 PM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Hey, you get top billing for "Ka-Ching! Pokie Nation". Start asking for more money.



To be honest, I submitted the appearance on Pokie Nation myself. It was accepted pretty quickly (thanks IMDB!). Nobody else bothered to list "actors" for that show, which is why it appears I'm the only one.

Quote:

Edit: Do you have a SAG card?



Nope. It would be cool to have one though.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Aussie
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June 18th, 2019 at 9:31:07 PM permalink
Meant to mention at the time but caught Pokie Nation on a domestic flight over here last year. Looked the most interesting IFE option so flicked it on. Got a surprise in the introduction when you popped up Wiz!
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June 19th, 2019 at 5:20:17 AM permalink
Quote: Aussie

Meant to mention at the time but caught Pokie Nation on a domestic flight over here last year. Looked the most interesting IFE option so flicked it on. Got a surprise in the introduction when you popped up Wiz!



Thanks! I heard somebody watched it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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June 20th, 2019 at 4:23:37 AM permalink
Am I the only one who finds it odd Mr. Wizard was not provided with a complementary copy?

Actual request: It doesn't seem I can stream Inside the Edge on any of the outlets of which I subscribe: Uverse, Netflix. Short of ordering a copy from one of Amazon's suppliers, would someone suggest alternate options for viewing this movie on a non-subscription outlet. Meaning, I'll pay to watch the movie, but I'd prefer to not subscribe to another service.
DRich
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June 20th, 2019 at 6:51:13 AM permalink
Quote: IndyJeffrey

Am I the only one who finds it odd Mr. Wizard was not provided with a complementary copy?

Actual request: It doesn't seem I can stream Inside the Edge on any of the outlets of which I subscribe: Uverse, Netflix. Short of ordering a copy from one of Amazon's suppliers, would someone suggest alternate options for viewing this movie on a non-subscription outlet. Meaning, I'll pay to watch the movie, but I'd prefer to not subscribe to another service.



iTunes.com can rent a stream for $4.99. That is what I did,
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Romes
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June 21st, 2019 at 12:31:38 AM permalink
To get the thread back on track with real discussion of the movie/documentary...

1) Entirely too short. Especially for those of us that have a big passion for this topic when something is actually done right we want to see it all. We've all watched the breaking vegas videos of MIT, Don Johnson, Ken Uston a billion times. Before big trips Bruce and I used to take on the weekends just counting cards I'd watch the MIT documentary. I've watched Holly Rollers with probably half a dozen different people over the years. I typically watch that with a new girlfriend after a while when I even want to bring this topic up and let them explain it because they cover almost all of the angles and I can just field additional "omg lol how do u pay taxes?!?!" type questions. Things that are done right by knowledgeable people are actually interesting. I wish this video literally showed a couple hours (at least) from every individual area he was and just expanded on it like a series. Vegas = 2 hour show. The South = Two 2 hour shows. California = 2 hour show, etc, etc, etc.

2) STATISTICS!!!! AHHHHHHH. Every card counter knows it's a SIN not to keep flawless records, which KC did and even sim'd games, etc, etc... HOWEVER, they didn't give any kind of a final breakdown of hands played, average hands per hour, hours played, EV per hour over the year, total EV generated, actual AV dollars, etc. All they did was flash his bankroll graph at the end (and we didn't even know that was the last time we were going to see it). I thought they would break this down at the end and give us nerd what we really wanted... the dirty dirty porn statistics.

3) On that note I agree with I think it was DRich... definitely needed more casino footage! Like him walking in, up to the table, buying in... spreading from small to big. I mean that's how you're gonna get the ploppies too... "The shoe just got hot enough, let's smash them up with the big bets!" Then watch him throw out $1000 and WATCH the next few hands. Of course you show winners and losers to balance things, but then you take the audience on the ride WITH you. They want to root for you during the show. It creates a much bigger connection and it's what everyone wants to see anyways.

4) Since they took the time to get most "all" of the big names in the movie I wish they would have done a little more Q/A with them asking about bad things casinos have done, etc. And then I wish they could have had Nersessian dispel a few more things legally. I actually recorded the section of him talking about "having to have an ID" a lie and if it ever gets nasty I'm going to show that clip literally to casino staff about arguably the top legal expert in the gambling arena. There was sooooo much experience and brain power in the show but I feel like it wasn't even tapped into... and no I'm not talking about learning new things (I didn't even expect the show to talk about shuffle tracking and ace sequencing, let alone hole carding).

5) Overall I definitely enjoyed the show. I just wish it gave me more! I've gotta figure one day in the loooooong retired AP future Bruce and I will do the exact same thing. Buy/Rent an RV and go around the country for a year smashing it up in a blaze of glory. Since we started in blackjack this is something that I know we would both enjoy thoroughly, but it's just not something that will happen until we're ready to hang up the career as a whole. If they do another, or someone else does one... more table time, actually watching him place, win, and lose small and large bets alike.


edit - is there some kind of directors cut that has like 10-20 hours of footage? I'd thoroughly enjoy getting my hands on that and watching all of it... not joking.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AcesAndEights
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June 21st, 2019 at 5:48:50 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

To get the thread back on track with real discussion of the movie/documentary...

1) Entirely too short. Especially for those of us that have a big passion for this topic when something is actually done right we want to see it all. We've all watched the breaking vegas videos of MIT, Don Johnson, Ken Uston a billion times. Before big trips Bruce and I used to take on the weekends just counting cards I'd watch the MIT documentary. I've watched Holly Rollers with probably half a dozen different people over the years. I typically watch that with a new girlfriend after a while when I even want to bring this topic up and let them explain it because they cover almost all of the angles and I can just field additional "omg lol how do u pay taxes?!?!" type questions. Things that are done right by knowledgeable people are actually interesting. I wish this video literally showed a couple hours (at least) from every individual area he was and just expanded on it like a series. Vegas = 2 hour show. The South = Two 2 hour shows. California = 2 hour show, etc, etc, etc.

2) STATISTICS!!!! AHHHHHHH. Every card counter knows it's a SIN not to keep flawless records, which KC did and even sim'd games, etc, etc... HOWEVER, they didn't give any kind of a final breakdown of hands played, average hands per hour, hours played, EV per hour over the year, total EV generated, actual AV dollars, etc. All they did was flash his bankroll graph at the end (and we didn't even know that was the last time we were going to see it). I thought they would break this down at the end and give us nerd what we really wanted... the dirty dirty porn statistics.

3) On that note I agree with I think it was DRich... definitely needed more casino footage! Like him walking in, up to the table, buying in... spreading from small to big. I mean that's how you're gonna get the ploppies too... "The shoe just got hot enough, let's smash them up with the big bets!" Then watch him throw out $1000 and WATCH the next few hands. Of course you show winners and losers to balance things, but then you take the audience on the ride WITH you. They want to root for you during the show. It creates a much bigger connection and it's what everyone wants to see anyways.

4) Since they took the time to get most "all" of the big names in the movie I wish they would have done a little more Q/A with them asking about bad things casinos have done, etc. And then I wish they could have had Nersessian dispel a few more things legally. I actually recorded the section of him talking about "having to have an ID" a lie and if it ever gets nasty I'm going to show that clip literally to casino staff about arguably the top legal expert in the gambling arena. There was sooooo much experience and brain power in the show but I feel like it wasn't even tapped into... and no I'm not talking about learning new things (I didn't even expect the show to talk about shuffle tracking and ace sequencing, let alone hole carding).

5) Overall I definitely enjoyed the show. I just wish it gave me more! I've gotta figure one day in the loooooong retired AP future Bruce and I will do the exact same thing. Buy/Rent an RV and go around the country for a year smashing it up in a blaze of glory. Since we started in blackjack this is something that I know we would both enjoy thoroughly, but it's just not something that will happen until we're ready to hang up the career as a whole. If they do another, or someone else does one... more table time, actually watching him place, win, and lose small and large bets alike.


edit - is there some kind of directors cut that has like 10-20 hours of footage? I'd thoroughly enjoy getting my hands on that and watching all of it... not joking.


KC and the director are on GWAE this week, and they threw out some asides about potentially having a DVD with special features including additional footaeg. There was nothing concrete though, just "yeah maybe sometime in the future." So it might be worth it to start an email campaign or something with them, so they know that there is an appetite to see this additional footage and people will pay for it. They said they had over 900 hours of footage total, ranging from 2005 to 2012. The early footage was less about KC directly as they were initially trying to pitch a TV show where he was more behind the scenes, but the project kind of morphed over time into what you saw in the final product (the most recent footage was still over 6 years old).

I haven't watched yet, but definitely will. I'm wondering if I hold out long enough if it will come to Netflix after they get as many folks to pay as possible. I'm a cheapskate, but will eventually watch it (and pay to rent if I have to). I missed the boat on Holy Rollers - it was on Netflix for a limited time and I never sat down and watched it :(
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
acw
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June 26th, 2019 at 5:47:21 PM permalink
I enjoyed watching the film.

Useful was to see how regulations that vary all over the country are being discussed. Also casino staff confidently asking for ID claiming they have the right to, trust me, often this is not bluff, they simply have no clue what the true regulations are.

Even here in Macau, which should be the best regulated jurisdiction in the world, you will hear things like ‘we are a private company, so we can decide who can enter our property or not’. Then what I find so typical American is that people will scream discrimination as soon as they can, but legally it turns out to mean hardly anything. This is elsewhere quite different. Disallowing APs to play blackjack is discrimination. If casinos are not happy with it, change the rules to make them less favourable towards everyone, so you can handle their action too. Now casinos got themselves accustomed to ban the presumed smart Western player and laughingly allow the presumed dumb Chinese player to play blackjack. It even smells racism. The stock exchange does not ban any investor based on his intelligence or race; Why should casinos be allowed to?

This one finally got sorted, but it took me a letter to Macau’s Chief Executive to do so.
DRich
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June 26th, 2019 at 6:32:02 PM permalink
Wizard, how many years ago did you do that interview. You looked a little younger in that video.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Wizard
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June 26th, 2019 at 8:58:57 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Wizard, how many years ago did you do that interview. You looked a little younger in that video.



I have to go by the color of my hair on that one. I'd estimate about three years ago.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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June 26th, 2019 at 9:00:22 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

edit - is there some kind of directors cut that has like 10-20 hours of footage? I'd thoroughly enjoy getting my hands on that and watching all of it... not joking.



All I can say is they asked me a lot of questions and two only made it into the movie. I'd love to hear every comment of all the commentators. I agree with your comment that it was too short.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
odiousgambit
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June 30th, 2019 at 5:04:00 AM permalink
Got the dvd and was glad to be able to watch it, partly because I have become familiar with the commentators. The production has a lot of credibility because of them, but also things like showing the big losing streak was very key.

Quote: Wizard

... I'd love to hear every comment of all the commentators. I agree with your comment that it was too short.

I thought it was about the right length from the 'keep it from dragging' angle, but agree that there must be a goldmine of more material. Stanford Wong got a few seconds, surely he granted at least a half hour of his time, just thinking about that alone [not just him] is something to ponder indeed. Maybe they'll make use of it and put out something new.

btw, as far as I can tell, the below is another tidbit from that interview:

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AxelWolf
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June 30th, 2019 at 6:05:26 AM permalink
We watched in a group. I kinda felt as if it wasn't anything I haven't seen or heard about before. At one point I was like okay you can fast forward and get to the end. I think it was better stuff done previously where everything was all rolled up into one. Perhaps it will be more interesting to people who are new to this kind of stuff.

The most fascinating part to me was all the diffrent looks he was able to pull off (without the elaborate Freddy Krueger look).
I with they would have spent more time showing him getting ready with each diffrent look. Ill be interested to see if I my wife can be fooled by any of his pictures. Since she is really good with faces, she can name any and all the presidents by just looking at their picture(I got Mike for a few bucks on that one).

At some point when they were taking about facial recognition and what kind of disguises it would take to avoid detection, I don't know if that's true or not, but I defiantly believe it when the guy said the floor would be more likely to notice some elaborate disguise and that would attract more attention.

You got to love it when casino employees claim they know the law.

I found it interesting he was a lone wolf doing and he had many diffrent skills.

Assuming hes not addicted to the action I have a feeling this guy won't have any problems in whatever he wants to do next. Ill be interested to see if he can parlay this into something much bigger.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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June 30th, 2019 at 6:58:56 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

We watched in a group. I kinda felt as if it wasn't anything I haven't seen or heard about before. At one point I was like okay you can fast forward and get to the end. I think it was better stuff done previously where everything was all rolled up into one. Perhaps it will be more interesting to people who are new to this kind of stuff.

The most fascinating part to me was all the diffrent looks he was able to pull off (without the elaborate Freddy Krueger look).
I with they would have spent more time showing him getting ready with each diffrent look. Ill be interested to see if I my wife can be fooled by any of his pictures. Since she is really good with faces, she can name any and all the presidents by just looking at their picture(I got Mike for a few bucks on that one).

At some point when they were taking about facial recognition and what kind of disguises it would take to avoid detection, I don't know if that's true or not, but I defiantly believe it when the guy said the floor would be more likely to notice some elaborate disguise and that would attract more attention.

You got to love it when casino employees claim they know the law.

I found it interesting he was a lone wolf doing and he had many diffrent skills.

Assuming hes not addicted to the action I have a feeling this guy won't have any problems in whatever he wants to do next. Ill be interested to see if he can parlay this into something much bigger.



The Biometrica guy was the biggest piecenof crap in the whole show actually

1) I am in Biometrica and I walk through WITHOUT A MASK many Biometrica casinos on a daily basis. If their software does anything its crapola

2) My mask makes his software crapola as well. Even he admitted that full facial disguises would get around that eye crap. His (and yours) assumptions about becoming obvious to a casino is bullcrap. You dont know what you are talking about. I have worn masks successfully for months at a time inside a casino actively pursuing on a daily basis.

3) Axel why dont you put your money up? I will fly out there and with my mask on and with you (or someone else you choose if you are so scared) will walk around multiple casinos gambling craps, blackjack, slots. One hour apiece. Low limits since my goal is not the gambling aspects. At least 6 different casinos including 2 within the same chain.

If not one security guy or dealer refuses my wagers you lose. If even one dealer refuses my wagers or security surrounds me, I will pay you.

Even money - $5,000 (five grand)

Would have to be sometime after the new year as my schedule is swamped but lets do this. Put up or shut up

EDIT: Even better yet, lets make it part of next years spring fling. And anyone from wov who wants to tag along thats flown in can do so

And obviously the dealer has to refuse my wager for a mask related reason. If i put my wager out at roulette too late and she pushes it back thats not a returned wager that you can claim victory. Lets not setup any stupid default situations here.
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beachbumbabs
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June 30th, 2019 at 9:22:22 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

The Biometrica guy was the biggest piecenof crap in the whole show actually

1) I am in Biometrica and I walk through WITHOUT A MASK many Biometrica casinos on a daily basis. If their software does anything its crapola

2) My mask makes his software crapola as well. Even he admitted that full facial disguises would get around that eye crap. His (and yours) assumptions about becoming obvious to a casino is bullcrap. You dont know what you are talking about. I have worn masks successfully for months at a time inside a casino actively pursuing on a daily basis.

3) Axel why dont you put your money up? I will fly out there and with my mask on and with you (or someone else you choose if you are so scared) will walk around multiple casinos gambling craps, blackjack, slots. One hour apiece. Low limits since my goal is not the gambling aspects. At least 6 different casinos including 2 within the same chain.

If not one security guy or dealer refuses my wagers you lose. If even one dealer refuses my wagers or security surrounds me, I will pay you.

Even money - $5,000 (five grand)

Would have to be sometime after the new year as my schedule is swamped but lets do this. Put up or shut up

EDIT: Even better yet, lets make it part of next years spring fling. And anyone from wov who wants to tag along thats flown in can do so

And obviously the dealer has to refuse my wager for a mask related reason. If i put my wager out at roulette too late and she pushes it back thats not a returned wager that you can claim victory. Lets not setup any stupid default situations here.



Idk, darkoz, I didn't feel like Axel was chipping at you with his comments, but it seems you did.

I gotta say, though, one of your conditions is kind of odd. You say "low limits because the gambling is not the point", but LV casinos don't care what red-chippers do unless you're at EC. You can play reeking and torn-up clothing or in a gold banana hammock and they could not care less at that level. (Speaking from experience, seated next to both in the past).

Guys who wear a disguise on purpose are trying to make money at a higher level. I would think, for a true test, you would have to play black.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
darkoz
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June 30th, 2019 at 11:00:08 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Idk, darkoz, I didn't feel like Axel was chipping at you with his comments, but it seems you did.

I gotta say, though, one of your conditions is kind of odd. You say "low limits because the gambling is not the point", but LV casinos don't care what red-chippers do unless you're at EC. You can play reeking and torn-up clothing or in a gold banana hammock and they could not care less at that level. (Speaking from experience, seated next to both in the past).

Guys who wear a disguise on purpose are trying to make money at a higher level. I would think, for a true test, you would have to play black.



Axels belief is that the disguise or mask will bring attention. I wouldn't be card counting so even at a black level I dont know if they would care about a masked guy playing negative.

But they should be all over someone "in disguise" since they would assume something nefarious is going on.

I dont think they would ever know

I took it as a jibe against me because key part of his statement was that people in disguise full face bring attention to themselves and he has stated that about my mask many times. Perhaps I read too much into it
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
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