darkoz
darkoz
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:00:32 AM permalink
Just watched a doc on cheats and grifters included on the Oceans 13 Bluray

For some reason the MIT Blackjack team was included even though they say a few times they did legal AP

So they interview Barbara Griffin of the newly reopened Griffin Agency and here is her view on why the MIT team actually were cheating.

Paraphrasing: "It was long ago determined that card counting at Blackjack is not illegal as long as the person counting is using their brains and no exterior help. The MIT team crossed over into cheating when they had one person doing the counting and someone else who they signalled to come wager. That person who wagered was not using their brains to determine the count and was relying on the exterior source of the other guy. He was being given information not available to him because he was not seated at the table prior to his large wagers"

WTF?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TigerWu
TigerWu
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:31:37 AM permalink
So it's cheating if I meet my friend at the sportsbook and I ask him who I should bet on for the Super Bowl because he's been obsessively following the whole season and knows all the stats by heart?
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:33:57 AM permalink
I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe Bob N. has said that signaling is a gray area and does not recommend it.

Iíll take a look at his book when I get home to see if thatís correct.
billryan
billryan
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:43:05 AM permalink
Signaling will certainly get you tossed from a casino.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
darkoz
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:51:31 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe Bob N. has said that signaling is a gray area and does not recommend it.

Iíll take a look at his book when I get home to see if thatís correct.



If I remember Bobs book myself the white side of the grey area is signalling there is a high count does not affect the cards or gameplay

The dark side would be signalling another player in a hole card situation obtained by sitting at another table or seat for example. In that situation the other player can decide his play based on passed info of the exact card in play

The edge is quite clear. A hole carder receiving info knows WHEN to wager to avoid losing. The CC only knows the table is overall favorable and can still lose mightily. He is not using the info to affect any outcomes. He just has a favorable moment

Most casinos IMO have an extremely difficult time seeing the difference in grey areas. Its all B&W to them. If its grey its cheating!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TigerWu
TigerWu
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Thanks for this post from:
Nathan
February 5th, 2019 at 10:17:59 AM permalink
So the lesson is, instead of covertly signaling, just blatantly yell out loud across the room to your partner; "Hey, Jack, get over here and bet! I got a good feelin' about these next few hands!"
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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February 5th, 2019 at 10:24:17 AM permalink
Trying to be the voice of reason here.

Is signaling cheating? Depending on the situation it could or it could not.

In a legal signaling situation casinos, at least in Nevada and many other jurisdictions, have the right not to allow those players to play blackjack.

I would not have anyone arrested, I would just tell them they can't play blackjack anymore. End of issue.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 10:30:09 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Is signaling cheating?


Almost certainly in the case of live Poker.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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February 5th, 2019 at 11:43:04 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Just watched a doc on cheats and grifters included on the Oceans 13 Bluray

For some reason the MIT Blackjack team was included even though they say a few times they did legal AP

So they interview Barbara Griffin of the newly reopened Griffin Agency and here is her view on why the MIT team actually were cheating.

Paraphrasing: "It was long ago determined that card counting at Blackjack is not illegal as long as the person counting is using their brains and no exterior help. The MIT team crossed over into cheating when they had one person doing the counting and someone else who they signalled to come wager. That person who wagered was not using their brains to determine the count and was relying on the exterior source of the other guy. He was being given information not available to him because he was not seated at the table prior to his large wagers"

WTF?



I can sort of see the logic and transgression in what she said.

However, where do you draw the line? People walk up to a table all the time and say, "winning?" Or "how's it going?" etc. And make a decision whether to sit down based on the answer they get.

If the answer is a preset key phrase that the spotter says in response, well, prove it. If the cue is non-verbal, well, prove it.

As to whether you're physically sitting at the table, what's that have to do with anything? People stand behind a table and watch all the time. They're not all backcounters or counting at all.

But they do have the laws about outside devices or other electronic methods, so you're at least in part getting info from an outside source. Again, prove it. Show where the law is clearly prohibiting any communication among players about the table trend.

The No Mid Shoe Entry rule was designed to stop this. So was the lousy penetration, flat-betting, and their right to make arbitrary decisions about who they will deal to. That has to be enough. They shouldn't be prosecuting on claiming it's illegal.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
billryan
billryan
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February 5th, 2019 at 12:25:23 PM permalink
The Griffin Agency doesn't prosecute anyone, as far as I know. They compile and distribute data. What the casinos do with the information is up to the casinos.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

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