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8 votes (66.66%)
4 votes (33.33%)
5 votes (41.66%)
4 votes (33.33%)
1 vote (8.33%)
7 votes (58.33%)

12 members have voted

Minty
Minty
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
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January 4th, 2019 at 6:55:35 PM permalink
Hey everyone! I've been doing a bit of reflection lately on my experience playing and not being allowed to play (or at least in profitable conditions anyway) and have wondered how other people feel about being given the boot from casinos or blackjack. I tend to go through a bit of a cycle ranging from numbness to anger to determination as I decide to refine my play or try new locations. Thoughts about how you feel and how best to persevere are welcome.
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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Rigondeaux
January 4th, 2019 at 7:11:40 PM permalink
From the inside, the best thing you can do to preserve your welcome at a casino is not to be too greedy. I have caught many players who take every correct deviation, even the ones on very negative counts. The EV cost of not taking those is minimal. Assume someone is always watching, even if you don't feel any heat. Many times I will be watching on video from the comfort of my office.

If you catch a good shoe and are making your larger bets, leave at the end of the shoe. If you are betting 2 hands of $500 and then after the shuffle go back to one hand at $25, that could be tipping off your action. Book your win and don't burn yourself at that property. Come back another day and start over.

Use a players card. Contrary to popular belief, we spend more time watching uncarded players.

I could write a book on this. If you are interested in any more specific advice, ask here or PM me. I would be happy to help you out if you agree not to play at my property.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Minty
Minty
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
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January 4th, 2019 at 7:15:21 PM permalink
That's a kind offer of yours, and I may take you up on it. I've read Bill Zender's Casinology and found it helpful, though it's been awhile. Ian Anderson's Ultimate Gambit is a good idea as well, but it can be hard to knowingly deviate from those index plays. Definitely surprised by your bit about using a player's card; I would guess that it's more noticeable at higher levels not to be using them, but would a low level player e.g. someone with a minimum bet of $50 or less still draw attention that way?
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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January 4th, 2019 at 7:22:20 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

That's a kind offer of yours, and I may take you up on it. I've read Bill Zender's Casinology and found it helpful, though it's been awhile. Ian Anderson's Ultimate Gambit is a good idea as well, but it can be hard to knowingly deviate from those index plays. Definitely surprised by your bit about using a player's card; I would guess that it's more noticeable at higher levels not to be using them, but would a low level player e.g. someone with a minimum bet of $50 or less still draw attention that way?




Depends on the property. A $50 bet at the Wynn is nothing. Try it at the El Cortez. $50 there will have everyone in the place watching you.

If you are betting in the range of 90% of the people there, uncarded may be the way to go. If you are spreading 10-12 units as you must to gain an advantage, an uncarded player will be more quickly noticed and run down.

Zender and Anderson are both excellent sources. Did you read "Turning the Tables on Las Vegas" or the sequel "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas" by Anderson? How about "Card Counting for the Casino Executive" by Zender?
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
gamerfreak
gamerfreak 
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
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January 4th, 2019 at 7:27:59 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

From the inside, the best thing you can do to preserve your welcome at a casino is not to be too greedy. I have caught many players who take every correct deviation, even the ones on very negative counts. The EV cost of not taking those is minimal. Assume someone is always watching, even if you don't feel any heat. Many times I will be watching on video from the comfort of my office.

If you catch a good shoe and are making your larger bets, leave at the end of the shoe. If you are betting 2 hands of $500 and then after the shuffle go back to one hand at $25, that could be tipping off your action. Book your win and don't burn yourself at that property. Come back another day and start over.

Use a players card. Contrary to popular belief, we spend more time watching uncarded players.

I could write a book on this. If you are interested in any more specific advice, ask here or PM me. I would be happy to help you out if you agree not to play at my property.


How closely are you watching other table games for skilled players?
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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January 4th, 2019 at 7:30:44 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

How closely are you watching other table games for skilled players?



Answer is VERY. We know what to look for on the "novelty games" where correct play looks nothing like what all the "regular players" are doing.

If you go to a place that offers a better game for the player (Not the LV Strip) you will find that they are keeping an eye on AP so that they can continue to offer that good game for the non-AP guests.

If you are talking about games like Roulette, we are only looking for cheaters there. You can AP roulette all you like :)
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Minty
Minty
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
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January 4th, 2019 at 7:43:43 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Depends on the property. A $50 bet at the Wynn is nothing. Try it at the El Cortez. $50 there will have everyone in the place watching you.

If you are betting in the range of 90% of the people there, uncarded may be the way to go. If you are spreading 10-12 units as you must to gain an advantage, an uncarded player will be more quickly noticed and run down.

Zender and Anderson are both excellent sources. Did you read "Turning the Tables on Las Vegas" or the sequel "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas" by Anderson? How about "Card Counting for the Casino Executive" by Zender?



I've read Burning the Tables in Las Vegas, though I don't think I've read the first one. Haven't read Zender's other book you've mentioned. I know in his writings he's mentioned that casinos will often "spend a dollar to save a penny" or something similar when it comes to game protection and counters are so far and few between that it's often not worth it.

As a player, and someone who did briefly work in a casino, I've only been able to confidently say I've seen two other counters besides myself in my 5+ years in casinos. In your work you likely see more, but do you feel that the countermeasures taken against counters are justified in most cases? Are there really enough people doing it?
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
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Minty
January 4th, 2019 at 7:54:27 PM permalink
Quote: Minty


As a player, and someone who did briefly work in a casino, I've only been able to confidently say I've seen two other counters besides myself in my 5+ years in casinos. In your work you likely see more, but do you feel that the countermeasures taken against counters are justified in most cases? Are there really enough people doing it?



When you offer a really good game, you are bound to have people try to take advantage of it. I would rather let 10 AP play than back off one regular person incorrectly. Having said that, we watch. At my last property (somewhere in Indian Country) I agree, there were only 1 or 2 people I ever considered a threat and had to back them off. This property however, probably due to location and game conditions has many more.

When I personally back someone off, I am sure. I do it very nicely, and 99% of the time, they know that I know and they depart quietly. I have never "taken anyone to the back room" nor have I disallowed them cashing out their chips.

I have so many stories of these types of situations, I really should write a book. There have been so many interesting ones. I took an AP to the coffee shop after backing him off and we spent an hour eating and talking shop. Was worthwhile for both of us.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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January 4th, 2019 at 8:59:01 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

When you offer a really good game, you are bound to have people try to take advantage of it. I would rather let 10 AP play than back off one regular person incorrectly. Having said that, we watch. At my last property (somewhere in Indian Country) I agree, there were only 1 or 2 people I ever considered a threat and had to back them off. This property however, probably due to location and game conditions has many more.

When I personally back someone off, I am sure. I do it very nicely, and 99% of the time, they know that I know and they depart quietly. I have never "taken anyone to the back room" nor have I disallowed them cashing out their chips.

I have so many stories of these types of situations, I really should write a book. There have been so many interesting ones. I took an AP to the coffee shop after backing him off and we spent an hour eating and talking shop. Was worthwhile for both of us.



Can you please tell every casino to try and backroom me? Thanks.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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January 4th, 2019 at 9:03:30 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

Hey everyone! I've been doing a bit of reflection lately on my experience playing and not being allowed to play (or at least in profitable conditions anyway) and have wondered how other people feel about being given the boot from casinos or blackjack. I tend to go through a bit of a cycle ranging from numbness to anger to determination as I decide to refine my play or try new locations. Thoughts about how you feel and how best to persevere are welcome.



Minty, play as aggressive as you want and just realize you will never go to prison for counting cards. Feel free to return after a trespass, ive done it already lol. They will just re trespass you again. Why didnt they just call the cops and detain me? Even if they illegally detain you and have the cops arrest you, sue each and every one of them in their private capacity under Title 18 Section 241 once the smoke clears. The trespassing violation will also just be thrown out in court each time once you seek discovery. The government cannot put you in prison because a legal criminal trespass never occurred in the first place. Wake up and smell the statutes and dont let fear mongering and bluffs control you in this sad society we live in.

Vegas and all these casinos in this country are relying on one of the biggest bluffs to keep their tables AP free. Sure they can back you off, but restricting you from entering the premises, good one. Maybe in China that would work.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.

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