Why don’t casinos just use CSMs?
People who don’t like the CSMs will get used to them, especially if it allows the rules to be better.
And if counters won’t play anymore, so what?
I guess my question is, is it possible casinos think they can bankrupt bad counters, and prevent the good ones from counting, so that is more profitable?
Sorry for the ramble.
Quote: FinsRuleWhat’s the reason casinos don’t just use CSM’s everywhere and make the rules a bit better, so they don’t have to worry at all about counters?
People who don’t like the CSMs will get used to them, especially if it allows the rules to be better.
And if counters won’t play anymore, so what?
I guess my question is, is it possible casinos think they can bankrupt bad counters, and prevent the good ones from counting, so that is more profitable?
Sorry for the ramble.
I agree. I would seriously consider going to all CSM's, depending on the location of the casino, if/when I am a Director again. As an addition bonus to the budget, you only need to use 5 decks per table instead of 12.
I'd pay 3-2 on BJ, double any first 2 cards, split to 4 hands including Aces. Dealer hits soft 17. No surrender.
ZCore13
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI like seeing all the cards all the time. If you do not mind playing a game where the cards are held inside a machine that determines the order in which they are dealt just play video blackjack. Casinos could offer better rules at video blackjack, but they do not. The bottom line of the business model is to separate you from your money as quickly as possible. Using a CSM improves that bottom line, better rules for players does not.
You should try and know what you're talking about before making comments.
A 5 deck CSM has a lower house edge than a 6 deck shoe, using the same game rules.
CSM's do not determine what order the cards come out any more or less than a 6 deck shuffler. Both are random and have no capability to deal specific cards to any spot or in any order.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You should try and know what you're talking about before making comments.
A 5 deck CSM has a lower house edge than a 6 deck shoe, using the same game rules.
CSM's do not determine what order the cards come out any more or less than a 6 deck shuffler. Both are random and have no capability to deal specific cards to any spot or in any order.
ZCore13
I don’t follow. How does a 5 deck CSM have a lower house edge than a 6 deck with same rules? Theoretically, shouldn’t it be the same for non-counters? I hope you can shed some light on this. Thank you.
I believe I do.Quote: Zcore13You should try and know what you're talking about before making comments.
Not if I count. Even an A/5 count, which at least makes the game interesting.Quote: Zcore13A 5 deck CSM has a lower house edge than a 6 deck shoe, using the same game rules.
I think the stock CSM’s used work as you describe, but players are at the mercy of the casino to ensure that. Other machines can be designed with today’s technology. Maybe they already exist. Casinos insist that players are totally transparent in how they engage in games. I would like total transparency for how the games are presented. Show me all the cards all the time.Quote: Zcore13CSM's do not determine what order the cards come out any more or less than a 6 deck shuffler. Both are random and have no capability to deal specific cards to any spot or in any order.
Btw, not paranoid: 40+ years in IT. I know what is possible.
Quote: SiegfriedRoyI don’t follow. How does a 5 deck CSM have a lower house edge than a 6 deck with same rules? Theoretically, shouldn’t it be the same for non-counters? I hope you can shed some light on this. Thank you.
Google “cut-card effect”. It’s actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Most definitely counter intuitive (to me).
One simple factor that fewer decks have a lower House Edge is your cards help affect your chances. There is a larger chance of Blackjack: suppose you're dealt a King as your first card, then your chances of an Ace are 7.843% (4/51) with 1 deck and 7.717% (24/311) with 6 decks. Similarly when doubling - single deck you double 9 vs 2 as your two low cards have a larger impact on the remaining 49 than with more decks.
Someone makes a decision. Maybe he knows what he is doing, maybe he doesn't.
Most of the time the decision to go a certain route is okay but sometimes it really bites the casino in the pocket book and the wrong people lose their jobs over it.
So cheap decks of cards or some incorrect calculations on sorters/dealer's wages? Does it really make much difference.
Casinos like to have a broad customer base and a broad appeal. Casinos like to have flexibility in dealing with the ebb and flow of crowds, drunken crowds, parties, ploppies, etc.
Its an endless game. Look back to the poker room that went one hundred percent digital and eliminated all their dealers. Once that decision was made, they had to work on what should we do with that room where people used to play poker.
Continuous Shuffling Machines? Good? Bad? Sort of depends on the whims of the public. And I surely think that everyone will have their opinions change if they suddenly start winning hand after hand for awhile.
Quote: unJonGoogle “cut-card effect”. It’s actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Most definitely counter intuitive (to me).
Would the 5 deck CSM be the same as the five deck shoe if it was dealt until the last card (no cut card)?
Quote: FinsRuleWhat’s the reason casinos don’t just use CSM’s everywhere and make the rules a bit better, so they don’t have to worry at all about counters?
People who don’t like the CSMs will get used to them, especially if it allows the rules to be better.
And if counters won’t play anymore, so what?
I guess my question is, is it possible casinos think they can bankrupt bad counters, and prevent the good ones from counting, so that is more profitable?
If you mean, why don't the casinos replace all single-deck and double-deck games with CSMs, that last line is probably closest to the truth.
Casinos probably make quite a bit of money from people who think they can count - especially at 6-5 tables.
Quote: Zcore13I agree. I would seriously consider going to all CSM's, depending on the location of the casino, if/when I am a Director again. As an addition bonus to the budget, you only need to use 5 decks per table instead of 12.
I'd pay 3-2 on BJ, double any first 2 cards, split to 4 hands including Aces. Dealer hits soft 17. No surrender.
ZCore13
I would and will not play csm. I dont count but I just dont find CSMs as fun. I actually like hand shuffled tables as well. Unlike the little downtime to get up and stretch and talk. I know you can do that with a csm and just get up whenever you want but when I have played them in the past I didnt feel right getting up.
1.) Because some players just prefer hand/shoe dealt games and you would lose them.*
*Of course, you could just restrict that to high-limit games so you only lose the low-limit players who would prefer that and switch some of them to HL.
2.) Because some casinos may not want card counters, but they do want people who think they can count cards or spread such that they are still playing a negative game.
3.) "Because this is the way we've always done it."
4.) Because of the upfront equipment costs to switch everything over to CSM.
5.) Because what CharliePatrick said.
SIDE COMMENT: I think ZCore13 should allow doubling on any THREE cards if he is a Table Games Director again, like the Longhorn does. It's good publicity, in my opinion, and reduces the house edge very little. In terms of publicity, I can't even tell you how many times I have brought up that the Longhorn does that. I think that all casinos would do well to try to find something small and unique to do along those lines to separate themselves from the pack, especially considering that casinos are essentially nationwide now.
Quote: Zcore13
I'd pay 3-2 on BJ, double any first 2 cards, split to 4 hands including Aces. Dealer hits soft 17. No surrender.
ZCore13
Offering the game at its normal rules , gee that’s really generous of you. Will your casino also pay 35-1 on a winning roullete number? If so then count me in
Quote: michael99000Offering the game at its normal rules , gee that’s really generous of you. Will your casino also pay 35-1 on a winning roullete number? If so then count me in
Might want to look around. Those were normal rules in the past. Not so normal these days.
ZCore13
1) Players play blackjack because of the perception that the game can be beat. For every AP there are 1000 wannabe APS who the casinos welcome with open arms. CSM will reduce that population.
2) Many players play pretty good basic strategy. When the count is zero, basic strategy is correct. In a shoe, the count goes up and down, and deviations are called for. The average player does not know the proper deviations, and therefore will be making inferior plays while sticking to "the book"
3) CSMs are 99% dealing at a count of zero, which means that the average player is playing correctly most of the time. This is the reason for the lower hold.
4) In any casino where I have had any say over things like this, I have removed the CSMs from the floor. It seems to be a lose-lose to keep them.
there is very little need for physical books anymore. yet the market for physical books is strong.
players prefer dealers doing this work. I'm sure the casinos have done statistical studies that show this and they realize this and this is why CSMs do not dominate the scene.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/datablog/2017/mar/18/the-fall-and-rise-of-physical-book-sales-worldwide-in-data
Quote: FCBLComishMy $.02
1) Players play blackjack because of the perception that the game can be beat. For every AP there are 1000 wannabe APS who the casinos welcome with open arms. CSM will reduce that population.
2) Many players play pretty good basic strategy. When the count is zero, basic strategy is correct. In a shoe, the count goes up and down, and deviations are called for. The average player does not know the proper deviations, and therefore will be making inferior plays while sticking to "the book"
3) CSMs are 99% dealing at a count of zero, which means that the average player is playing correctly most of the time. This is the reason for the lower hold.
4) In any casino where I have had any say over things like this, I have removed the CSMs from the floor. It seems to be a lose-lose to keep them.
I wonder if 3 is an alternate explanation (vs the “cut-card effect”) for the higher HE on a shoe game then CSM game.
Quote: Zcore13You should try and know what you're talking about before making comments.
A 5 deck CSM has a lower house edge than a 6 deck shoe, using the same game rules.
CSM's do not determine what order the cards come out any more or less than a 6 deck shuffler. Both are random and have no capability to deal specific cards to any spot or in any order.
ZCore13
What's your explanation of this?
this is a link to a service manual for the one-to-six, which on page 4-5, you clearly see how to set-up a custome game, which allows an administator to set the amount of cards per deck, cards per initial hand, and number of players?
https://
issuu.com
/hvason
/docs
/one2six_ots_service_maintenance_man
Quote: heatmapWhat's your explanation of this?
this is a link to a service manual for the one-to-six, which on page 4-5, you clearly see how to set-up a custome game, which allows an administator to set the amount of cards per deck, cards per initial hand, and number of players?
https://
issuu.com
/hvason
/docs
/one2six_ots_service_maintenance_man
I use them every day. They can't deal specific cards. It's that simple.
ZCore13
Weird you didn’t just answer his question. I’m assuming the answer is that for a custom game you enter the number of players, because it’s the max number of players, not the number of players that happen to be playing at any time. And the machine will always deal out that many hands, but the dealer will just shove the extras in the discard rack.Quote: Zcore13I use them every day. They can't deal specific cards. It's that simple.
ZCore13
Or is that wrong?
Quote: unJonWeird you didn’t just answer his question. I’m assuming the answer is that for a custom game you enter the number of players, because it’s the max number of players, not the number of players that happen to be playing at any time. And the machine will always deal out that many hands, but the dealer will just shove the extras in the discard rack.
Or is that wrong?
That's obviously the way it works. Same as the single deck shufflers. It's just getting tiring explaining such basic stuff to consperiecy theorists. Maybe I'll just take a few days break.
ZCore13
Was that a card counter pun, and I'm the only one that got it, or am I just entertaining myself again?Quote: unJonGoogle “cut-card effect”. It’s actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Most definitely counter intuitive (to me).
If it was,,,,,good one. If not,,,,I'll tell myself some more jokes that only I get.
Funny. Totally unintentional (or maybe subconscious) on my part.Quote: petroglyphWas that a card counter pun, and I'm the only one that got it, or am I just entertaining myself again?Quote: unJonGoogle “cut-card effect”. It’s actually quite an interesting phenomenon. Most definitely counter intuitive (to me).
If it was,,,,,good one. If not,,,,I'll tell myself some more jokes that only I get.
Quote: charliepatrickSome people like playing shoes as it gives a natural break to visit the restrooms, have a drink etc., means you can relax and perhaps chat with other players. It also might help that you can say that was a lousy shoe, let's hope the next one is better.
Thats exactly why I'd rather play shoes instead. Now all I hear is- "You messed up the flow of the cards by taking a bathroom break! " lol My reply- I've had to pee for over an hour, and I couldn't hold it any longer. Blame the CSM, not me! lol
I think some of the diehard superstitious bj players at the CSM table wish these were the rules:
No Bathroom breaks
No going to eat breaks
No smoke breaks
lol
Quote: VegasriderCasino also loves fast dealers vs the slow or talkative ones that slows the game down.
Not necessarily true. Depends on the casino.
If I were running a casino that had mostly tourists, then the faster they deal the better I like it.
On the other hand, dealing to mostly locals, the talkative ones are the ones that keep people coming back day in and day out. All casinos have basically the same games, the difference is the guest service. I have a few of the slowest dealers I have ever seen, and the players love them. If the players are happy, then so am I.
I also like dealers who can.pitch the cards vs dealing the cards. There is skill involved when it comes to dealing, even down to cutting the chips and paying or taking the players chips.
Some casinos seem to have lost this concept.Quote: FCBLComish...mostly locals, the talkative ones are the ones that keep people coming back day in and day out....
Many years ago in Aberdeen I stumbled across a small casino which had coffee and sandwiches on a big table at the end of the room; it was really catering for the locals. My old local casino used to be a really frienfdly place to go and I went there most evenings to enjoy a game of BJ and coffee/sandwich; also the tip went to the waitress rather than the casino, so everytone was happy
The same idea applies to pubs - there are some wonderful pubs but others are moving towards dining rather than nice beer.
Quote: VegasriderWhy are tips pooled in the pits? Reward the good dealers or the dealers that put you on a good run. Why do the casino's force us to subsidize the bad dealers or the ones we disloke, like slow ass dealers.
Because the dealers are assigned to tables without any say in what they deal. If it's slow, or they're on an unpopular game with no players, they've had no opportunity to earn any tips.
They also might be stuck on mornings, when it's slow, or other bad earning times, with the casino offering games at all hours. So most places I've heard of portion it out on at least the 24 hour clock, and some do it a week at a time.
A least that's what I think the issue is. Not having a choice of tables, they have to share. And I can only imagine the resentment if people goto to pick their tables and keep their tips. One dissatisfied employee after the next with the inequity.
Quote: beachbumbabsBecause the dealers are assigned to tables without any say in what they deal. If it's slow, or they're on an unpopular game with no players, they've had no opportunity to earn any tips.
They also might be stuck on mornings, when it's slow, or other bad earning times, with the casino offering games at all hours. So most places I've heard of portion it out on at least the 24 hour clock, and some do it a week at a time.
A least that's what I think the issue is. Not having a choice of tables, they have to share. And I can only imagine the resentment if people goto to pick their tables and keep their tips. One dissatisfied employee after the next with the inequity.
Understood but no different than how major poker rooms in Vegas or possibly other cities operate. Each shift dealers draw a card which will assign them to their table and then follow the rotation. It could be a favourable draw or a crappy one which will effect how much they will make. Historically, at the Bellagio or Aria, the top section is feared the most by most dealers as the highest stakes in poker will often result an air ball in tokes. But also depends on who's playing. Bobbly Baldwin made sure each dealer got $25 for dealing a down, but those are rare. Or even worse, getting stuck dealing a tournament down or a dead spread.
Poker always led the way, no smoking card room to individual tokes. The pit needs to follow.
CSM's can malfunction. When that happens, the game stops while the employees fix it. This is annoying to the player.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI like seeing all the cards all the time. If you do not mind playing a game where the cards are held inside a machine that determines the order in which they are dealt just play video blackjack. Casinos could offer better rules at video blackjack, but they do not. The bottom line of the business model is to separate you from your money as quickly as possible. Using a CSM improves that bottom line, better rules for players does not.
No, casinos do offer better rules at video blackjack.
I live one block from Circus Circus Reno where video blackjack allows you to surrender, and the table does not.
I've been to two other casinos that do exactly the same thing. Tables are better for chatting and counting. Video BJ is better if you are a strictly basic strategy player (and don't mind talking to a computer LOL.)
Exception would be if everyone had a CSM, then I would consider going to shoe games to be the one place that could attract all the people who think they're rigged.
(Would also have to consider the cost to put them in at the tables)
I'm sure there are exceptions. Without getting into the particular rules, where I play the house edge at video blackjack is 10 times that of the tables. That is no longer true for the low level tables since 6:5 blackjack was instituted, but it is still true for green chip and higher tables.Quote: KevinAANo, casinos do offer better rules at video blackjack. ...
I would, too. I've posted on this thread about how a CSM game is unacceptable to me as a player. It would be a different story if I were running the games. Bring on stadium games, CSM's and 6;5 blackjack pays. I have seen with my own eyes that there is an ample supply of players who are willing to get screwed again and again by probability and variance, and they don't even mind if the process is automated.Quote: TomGIf I was in charge I would go to almost all CSM for blackjack. ...
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI would, too. I've posted on this thread about how a CSM game is unacceptable to me as a player. It would be a different story if I were running the games. Bring on stadium games, CSM's and 6;5 blackjack pays. I have seen with my own eyes that there is an ample supply of players who are willing to get screwed again and again by probability and variance, and they don't even mind if the process is automated.
I agree completely
Quote: KevinAANo one has mentioned this one:
CSM's can malfunction. When that happens, the game stops while the employees fix it. This is annoying to the player.
In live poker, the dealer is allowed to reset or fix the jam. In the pit, the floor must come over and do it. Once again, poker leading the way.
The worst of the worst in terms of stopping the game is bringing in a new deck every two hours. Those paper cards should go away, you get much more longevity out of the plastic cards used in poker. Once again, poker leading the way.
