Casino Cheating Blackjack Claimed
Quote: SOOPOOI believe Zcore is most likely correct, with a confidence level of somewhere over 99%, but certainly not 100%.
A few years back if there was someone on "Wizardof Autos" web forum who said the exhaust from a Volvo smelled so bad they must be putting an illegal chip in their cars to fool inspectors I would have said I am over 99% sure that that is just BS for many of the same reasons I list why I don't believe that shuffle machines aren't random. Just food for thought....
I thought that was VW. Passat?
Volvo fan who never heard about it if they did it, here.
Casinos installing rogue software or chips somehow, not willing to vouch for that, but 99% sure they're not.
Quote: beachbumbabsI thought that was VW. Passat?
Volvo fan who never heard about it if they did it, here.
Ooops... I 'misremembered'!
I do know technical people that can fabricate (and write the software) on customized programmable integrated chips in very small facilities (the size of a garage.) The precision placement of spot welds on the chip is the hardest thing to do, IMO, but in the setups I have seen these spot welds are done by people with technician-level skills. Their customers are usually organizations that are building prototype devices or one-of-a-kind research instruments. Also, national security organizations buy a large amount of custom chips through circuitous routes from small contractors.
So, again, I personally know people that could read the chip on a shuffler (that's easy if you possess the chip) and then fabricate a substitute chip with different software that would allow one to switch between random deals and semi-random deals within a predetermined pattern. The first such chip would not be cheap; probably several tens of thousands of dollars. Replicates of the first chip would be cheaper.
Do I know that it has happened? No, of course not. Such things would not be openly announced, it would be akin to a black market item. But I do believe that the barriers to fabricating a rigged chip are significantly lower that either of you might suspect. In a world that has snuff films and Russians who hack slot machines, it takes a leap of faith to believe that at least one such chip does not already exist.
Quote: gordonm888Babs and Zcore: I have said several times that I have been persuaded by you guys (and others on this forum) that SHFL is not involved in manufacturing and selling "rigged" shufflers.
I do know technical people that can fabricate (and write the software) on customized programmable integrated chips in very small facilities (the size of a garage.) The precision placement of spot welds on the chip is the hardest thing to do, IMO, but in the setups I have seen these spot welds are done by people with technician-level skills. Their customers are usually organizations that are building prototype devices or one-of-a-kind research instruments. Also, national security organizations buy a large amount of custom chips through circuitous routes from small contractors.
So, again, I personally know people that could read the chip on a shuffler (that's easy if you possess the chip) and then fabricate a substitute chip with different software that would allow one to switch between random deals and semi-random deals within a predetermined pattern. The first such chip would not be cheap; probably several tens of thousands of dollars. Replicates of the first chip would be cheaper.
Do I know that it has happened? No, of course not. Such things would not be openly announced, it would be akin to a black market item. But I do believe that the barriers to fabricating a rigged chip are significantly lower that either of you might suspect. In a world that has snuff films and Russians who hack slot machines, it takes a leap of faith to believe that at least one such chip does not already exist.
I completely agree that it could be done. I also agree that the bones of the SHFL machine that can sort the cards has the mechanical ability. But I think.the swap would have to be at the casino level (hence my 1% hedge), and would not go unknown for long.
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
Quote: teliotMy thoughts ....
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
I thought you retired, professor, nice to see you!
Great video. There is one more thing that would keep this from happening. When the shuffler stacks the cards in that predisposed order, you still have to get by the player cutting the cards. If there are known high card clumps, it would be almost trivial to cut them to an advantageous spot.
One of the things I've done in retirement is to learn video production. I've become a producer/director at our local community access channel and have dozens of director credits. It occurred to me a few months back that I could have some fun with a YouTube channel where I let myself go for it, without regard for any particular side. Watching Doug Polk's poker channel in particular got me thinking ... and here you go.
Cheers.
Yes, cutting is an issue I thought about it but decided to go for the core argument without bringing it up. Who knows, maybe the casino is cutting their shoes ...Quote: FCBLComishEliot,
Great video. There is one more thing that would keep this from happening. When the shuffler stacks the cards in that predisposed order, you still have to get by the player cutting the cards. If there are known high card clumps, it would be almost trivial to cut them to an advantageous spot.
Quote: teliotMy thoughts ....
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
you didn't read the postings on this issue carefully.
you said this in the comments under the video and in the video itself:
"There is a discussion going around that at least one casino is using an automatic shuffler to preset the shoes so that high cards (ten-valued and Aces) come out early in the shoe."
that is not what is being claimed. what is being claimed is that 𝐎𝐍𝐋𝐘 𝟏𝟎 𝐕𝐀𝐋𝐔𝐄 𝐂𝐀𝐑𝐃𝐒 are being clumped so the game is basically unbeatable because when these cards come out there will be all pushes and after they're gone the player will be at a huge disadvantage because of all the low cards left
your misunderstanding of these points is very disappointing
also, in stating that you've been out of the business for so long you've basically disqualified yourself as an expert because of the high speed advances in technology
to be clear - I am not saying the claims are accurate. I'm not sure. I only posted because so many respected veteran APs seemed to think it feasible.
basically, your video did absolutely nothing to clarify the situation and even muddied the waters further
Quote: teliotMy thoughts ....
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
Great video, teliot! Made a lot of sense. Nice for you to drop by.
Quote: beachbumbabsGreat video, teliot! Made a lot of sense. Nice for you to drop by.
there was absolutely nothing great about it. it made no sense at all. there would be less confusion if he hadn't dropped by.
Quote: lilredrooster
that is not what is being claimed. what is being claimed is that 𝐎𝐍𝐋𝐘 𝟏𝟎 𝐕𝐀𝐋𝐔𝐄 𝐂𝐀𝐑𝐃𝐒 are being clumped so the game is basically unbeatable because when these cards come out there will be all pushes and after they're gone the player will be at a huge disadvantage because of all the low cards left
Ridiculous. It would take a day for someone to notice this pattern.
Quote: lilredrooster
your misunderstanding of these points is very disappointing
Just as ridiculous.
Quote: lilredroosteralso, in stating that you've been out of the business for so long you've basically disqualified yourself as an expert because of the high speed advances in technology
Winner. Most ridiculous comment.
Quote: lilredrooster
basically, your video did absolutely nothing to clarify the situation and even muddied the waters further
More ridiculousness.
ZCore13
Quote: lilredroosterthere was absolutely nothing great about it. it made no sense at all. there would be less confusion if he hadn't dropped by.
It IS possible to disagree without being disagreeable. You might try it some time.
Quote: beachbumbabsIt IS possible to disagree without being disagreeable. You might try it some time.
I apologize for the rudeness of my comment. Sorry.
1, Well made video. Nice work.
2. I agreed with the second half of your video. It does seems unlikely in Nevada, NJ, etc.
3. I disagree with you on the math!
My impression of what is being discussed is clumps of high cards without low cards or aces. Imagine a clump of 25 -30 consecutive cards that are mostly tens, with some 9s and 8s intermixed among them as well but with no cards in the range of A-7. Such a high card clump would have zero advantage for either the player or the house. (I won't insult you by explaining this.) There is nothing for an AP to take advantage of (except for sidebets, which I don't know to have been present in this specific case.) It would be a very clever way to consume high cards and leave the rest of the shoe with a low density of tens which would indeed favor the house.
Such clumps would be noticeable, which is what is claimed to have happened in this instance - players are claiming to have noticed it.
So, you were correct in calling it a high card clump and that part of my criticism was invalid.
again, sorry Sir.
however, this is what the OP from bjtf said about your video on another forum
"Teliot, (Eliot Jacabson) made and posted a video attempting to debunk my claim. Apparently Elliot didn't read the initial post of this discussion, because he immediately talked about the high card clump being at the beginning of the shoe. I didn't say that!. I thought I made it clear the high card clump can come out at anytime. All the machine can do is put the high card clump together. It doesn't determine where the clump is in the deck. The player cutting is the one that determines that."
this is what he said in his very first post at bjtf
"Basically there is a clump of high cards somewhere in play."
Depending on the location I would love a game that had high enough limits where you could guarantee a push each hand. That's an AP dream in some situations.Quote: gordonm888Eliot:
1, Well made video. Nice work.
2. I agreed with the second half of your video. It does seems unlikely in Nevada, NJ, etc.
3. I disagree with you on the math!
My impression of what is being discussed is clumps of high cards without low cards or aces. Imagine a clump of 25 -30 consecutive cards that are mostly tens, with some 9s and 8s intermixed among them as well but with no cards in the range of A-7. Such a high card clump would have zero advantage for either the player or the house. (I won't insult you by explaining this.) There is nothing for an AP to take advantage of (except for sidebets, which I don't know to have been present in this specific case.) It would be a very clever way to consume high cards and leave the rest of the shoe with a low density of tens which would indeed favor the house.
Such clumps would be noticeable, which is what is claimed to have happened in this instance - players are claiming to have noticed it.
No need to beat the game itself.
Don't underestimate the value of the mail and even comps. Let's not forget you can also negotiate with a host.
It's not uncommon for players to receive walking in money(free play or whatever) when using higher amounts of front money and lines of credit. Did I mention ratholing could help as well?
Obviously, EC wouldn't be the best location for this.
I've never seen the inside of an ASM, but I always assumed it was effectively a random, "analog" event where the deck was randomly mixed up with no awareness on the part of the machine as to what the cards were that were put into the thing. Put in a deck of 312 cards and beyond knowing that there are the proper NUMBER of cards, so that cards don't get LEFT OUT, and you got back cards in an order that was as random as if you shuffled them by hand. I assumed that if you left the cards in there for an hour you'd get sixty minutes worth of shuffling, until you pressed the button.
So now you're telling me that there's a CHIP in the thing that can determine what the cards are? Shelves? Some kind of, even rudimentary "intelligence?"
Why? To verify that there are the proper number of sevens, or clubs, in the deck? To keep an inventory so that you know not only that there are 312 cards, but that they are the right 312 cards?
That's a hack waiting to happen! Sooner or later that mythical 400-pound kid living in his mother's basement (IN NEW JERSEY!) is going to take over all the ASMs and make them deal the cards however he wants.
OK, the manufacturer, or someone at the starting end of the supply chain, couldn't pull it off - too many opportunities for the scam to be found out from the factory floor all the way to the dealer at the table. So it's not a grand conspiracy.
But I've pulled a soldered-in microchip off of a motherboard in order to replace it with one sent to me by the guy who built my computer. And that guy burnt the replacement in HIS basement.
If there's a chip in the box, someone wrote the code that's in it. Someone else can write DIFFERENT code that sorts the 10-value cards, and ONLY the 10-value cards (NOT the aces) into clumps.
Quote: teliotMy thoughts ....
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
I could be wrong, but your mention of casinos in other jurisdictions possibly wanting to do this got me thinking. It would be insane for a regulated Nevada casino to knowingly modify the software to do this, assuming that particular model is even technically capable of it.
But aren’t most of these shufflers leased? What if this machine was previously leased by a cheating casino in Russia, for example, before it made its way to Vegas? If Shufflemaster just cleaned up the machine after a foreign casino returned it, didn’t check the software, and then put it back out in the field, this story would be somewhat plausible IMO.
I’m highly skeptical that this is actually happening, but if it is, the above explanation is probably somewhere in the ballpark of how it came to be.
Quote: cwazyI could be wrong, but your mention of casinos in other jurisdictions possibly wanting to do this got me thinking. It would be insane for a regulated Nevada casino to knowingly modify the software to do this, assuming that particular model is even technically capable of it.
But aren’t most of these shufflers leased? What if this machine was previously leased by a cheating casino in Russia, for example, before it made its way to Vegas? If Shufflemaster just cleaned up the machine after a foreign casino returned it, didn’t check the software, and then put it back out in the field, this story would be somewhat plausible IMO.
I’m highly skeptical that this is actually happening, but if it is, the above explanation is probably somewhere in the ballpark of how it came to be.
When US Casinos lease these machines, they are generally brand new. They are used for virtually the entire operable life of the machines, or until they are made obsolete by Shuffle Master when they release their next model and stop providing parts and service for the older model.
If anything, returned units are the ones that would make their way overseas, not the other way around. If I lease a Shuffle Master machine, I expect it to be new.
The Person claiming this..do they have reliable data?
Has anyone since been to EC to confirm this allegation? NVM, they seen this and other threads and changed it.
Either way, big mistake bringing it up publicly
Either it's vulnerable and you just fked yourself and others, or you are crazy. Or it was real not AP'able, but you could have caught them in the act and exposed them. WHY POST UP ABOUT IT???
Oh ya, save the poppies.
Have 100% proof before you say anything.
Quote: cwazyI could be wrong, but your mention of casinos in other jurisdictions possibly wanting to do this got me thinking. It would be insane for a regulated Nevada casino to knowingly modify the software to do this, assuming that particular model is even technically capable of it.
But aren’t most of these shufflers leased? What if this machine was previously leased by a cheating casino in Russia, for example, before it made its way to Vegas? If Shufflemaster just cleaned up the machine after a foreign casino returned it, didn’t check the software, and then put it back out in the field, this story would be somewhat plausible IMO.
I’m highly skeptical that this is actually happening, but if it is, the above explanation is probably somewhere in the ballpark of how it came to be.
There is a handheld device that checks the chip at the factory, GLI and Casino. That's how everyone knows they are getting an un'tampered with and newest version machine. I forget what the device was called, but I saw my Compliance guy do it at my last casino.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13There is a handheld device that checks the chip at the factory, GLI and Casino. That's how everyone knows they are getting an un'tampered with and newest version machine. I forget what the device was called, but I saw my Compliance guy do it at my last casino.
ZCore13
I believe you mean the Kobetron
Quote: FCBLComishI believe you mean the Kobetron
Yup, that's it.
ZCore13
Quote: teliotMy thoughts ....
https://youtu.be/04Qe-QWsjzY
Hi, Dr. J. Former client here. (who wishes to remain anonymous on this board). Glad to see retirement has treated you well.
This is incorrect. Perhaps you viewed older versions of machines, but even casinos near me for at least the past couple YEARS have shuffle machines that can identify specific cards. I.E. Red light and a message that says "9 of diamonds missing."Quote: KingoftheEyeI've seen the inside of a shuffle machine multiple times. It is not possible to rig any ASM for BJ that I've seen, simply because the machine doesn't have the capability to read the value of the cards as they are input into it...
Quote: RomesThis is incorrect. Perhaps you viewed older versions of machines, but even casinos near me for at least the past couple YEARS have shuffle machines that can identify specific cards. I.E. Red light and a message that says "9 of diamonds missing."
Potentially not inconsistent if the shufflers can read the cards on the way out but not when they are “input”.
he believes they were removed because of the various insinuating postings on different forums - he believes that their removal is evidence that he was correct in his original claim
he has also stated in another forum that several of his AP friends were upset with him because they were exploiting the gaffed shuffler and now that opportunity for them is gone. don't ask me how they were exploiting it. I could only make an educated guess.
so, it looks like it is now more difficult to investigate the situation
Quote: RomesThis is incorrect. Perhaps you viewed older versions of machines, but even casinos near me for at least the past couple YEARS have shuffle machines that can identify specific cards. I.E. Red light and a message that says "9 of diamonds missing."
Sorry, I probably should have said CSM. Some ASMs do read card values, like an MD3, but the ones I have seen are not accurate enough on card placement to stack a deck. One to two cards will fall regularly when the arms pick up the stack.
ZCore13
Oh wait are we supposed to be listing conspiracy theories that arent true?
lilredrooster = a banned member?Quote: QFITNote: Referring back to the OP in this thread, the poster that made the post at BJTF about cheating was banned as a sock. The data supplied was analyzed, and the results do not suggest cheating as they are well within expectations.
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Norm is saying the original poster on BJTF... which lilredrooster was commenting on here (seemed like 2 diff people).Quote: AxelWolflilredrooster = a banned member?
Quote: Bjo32The OP says APs are exploiting it with the side bet. This doesn't make a lot of sense. Somehow El Cortez is smart enough to make an ASM clump cards to stop card counters but they forget about how this might impact their side bet? Yeah, right.
I *belive* i am able to exploit specific conditions on shufflers. I have to say, whenever I do my thing, I get a higher rate of winning side bets - although i am not playing them 99% of the time its more of a big win kind of treat for myself.
I also normally play the hands through my head, as in what should have been and usually the dealer has a hole card that would benefit side bets.
I actually always play side bets when i play baccarat for fun.
